Even if it is better than the rune, which it will be. When damage soaking is added DFS will still probably have an advantage over it in terms of its soak ability.

What balance? DFS is already worse than the rune defender for everything.

 

This is pretty false... it's useful for bandos, arma, dks. in safe pvp DFS > defender for meleers and is the fourth best shield behind Div>CKS>Ely for rangers.

Lol no.

 

Prove it :grin:

Fixed.

There are situations where in non-safe pvp DFS > defender if you're just gonna bring 1 of the two but in reality you SHOULD be bringing both. On top of that DFS protects over just about everything.

Rune defenders ARE a [bleep] to get but with a rapier (since you're not gonna be using rapier with DFS in edge) it will destroy you, your shield, your family, and... well yeah.

I highly doubt Jagex will give the Dragon Defender a strength bonus equal to or greater than the DFS. First off, they probably don't want to "devalue" the DFS. Second, the current formula since Steel is +1 per tier, although Dragon is two tiers above rune based off level-requirements. More than likely, it'll have a +6 strength bonus and attack bonuses of 29, 28, 27 or 30, 29, 28.

You make it sound like it's NOT guaranteed to be a better version of the rune defender. If it only had defense bonuses, it'd be the dragon kiteshield instead. And dragon items always have better stats then their rune equivalent.

 

Rune knives/darts and dragon darts are pretty comparable

 

Anyway, defender+rapier loses to dfs+rapier in pvp... this is supported by both tons of personal experience AND a lot of actual research

defender is pretty bad for supreme and obviously useless for arma, arguable for bandos but i personally prefer dfs

 

Comparable? Excluding price Dragon Darts are BETTER then rune darts, end of discussion. Sure, they aren't significantly better, but they still are better.

 

Cut the crap, market takes it all.

 

The mid level spirit shields actually rise in price for some reason. High end spirit shields doesnt affected.

Last time when rumors of d defenders arrived, it doesnt seem to be affected either.

http://services.runescape.com/m=itemdb_rs/results.ws?query=spirit+shield&price=all&members=

 

Dragonfire shields crashes each time when news of dragon defenders come out.

http://services.runescape.com/m=itemdb_rs/Dragonfire_shield/viewitem.ws?obj=11284

DFS have it own demand as not everyone have enough money for 85 herblore but their money pile does have 8 digits.

However most people who use it are not dragon slayers.

 

Dragon claws dropped by 0.7%.

http://services.runescape.com/m=itemdb_rs/Dragon_claws/viewitem.ws?obj=14484

Btw, dragon claws is going to be the best spec for pvp after pvp soaking is out.

Since the system only works on damage more than 200 and the reduction is base on percentage, double hitter specials shrines out.

 

Godswords also have some impact. BGS dropped by 0.85%, AGS dropped by 0.42%.

In fact, sgs doesnt even move a bit.

http://services.runescape.com/m=itemdb_rs/results.ws?query=godsword&price=all&members=

 

Saradomin sword dropped by 0.68%

http://services.runescape.com/m=itemdb_rs/Saradomin_sword/viewitem.ws?obj=11730

 

Zamorak spear dropped by 0.8%.

http://services.runescape.com/m=itemdb_rs/Zamorakian_spear/viewitem.ws?obj=11716

However, ZS and SS never recover in price since dragon defender is mentioned by some jmods. Their actual drop rate is around 8-9%.

 

besides, I dunno how you can justify DFS etc as "reasonable price" for anyone under 110 combat who arent filthy rich but have high defence. (like myself a few years ago) The damn thing isn't worth 28m as far as im concerned.

30mil is "filthy rich"? Thats merely investing for 4 months of manage thy kingdom with only 10min playing time per week working on it.

And besides, the only dragon slaying alternative is either the crappy anti-dragon shield or 85 herblore which can easily cost more than 100mil.

If you are just looking for a shield, you got dragon square and a blessed spirit shield for those who do quests. Truely "filthy rich" people dont even care about those craps.

 

You know, the only thing ZS/SS really shine on is waterfiends. Although ZS is used on dragons by people without chaotics, and Koraskis sword with d defender will now be better for that I think... Then again, ZS is *THE* weapon at Corp.

What balance? DFS is already worse than the rune defender for everything.

 

 

DFS>Rune defender: MHing, Dragon hunting, tanking, Safe pvp.

 

 

depends on the boss, and if you're the tank or not.

And I lol'ed when you said dragon hunting.

I'd think after a couple months, dragon defender will become the norm. Same as rune defender is now.

What balance? DFS is already worse than the rune defender for everything.

DFS is +3 str vs 18-20 accuracy is it not?

so assuming your strength bonus and accuracy bonus are comparable

there is about 6x more accuracy bonus than DFS. (this assumption skews the end result in favor of strength, as attack bonuses suffer diminishing returns beyond 50% accuracy)

 

1-sqrt(0.25/6) = 0.796

 

meaning you only need 79.6% accuracy to justify using a DFS over a rune defender. Possibly even more as my calculation skews in favor of strength.

 

I won't explain why this formula works for the moment.

I'm sure you all trust my knowledge on DPS by this point :P

Actually 2 strength for 20 accuracy assuming rapier.

What balance? DFS is already worse than the rune defender for everything.

DFS is +3 str vs 18-20 accuracy is it not?

so assuming your strength bonus and accuracy bonus are comparable

there is about 6x more accuracy bonus than DFS. (this assumption skews the end result in favor of strength, as attack bonuses suffer diminishing returns beyond 50% accuracy)

 

1-sqrt(0.25/6) = 0.796

 

meaning you only need 79.6% accuracy to justify using a DFS over a rune defender. Possibly even more as my calculation skews in favor of strength.

 

I won't explain why this formula works for the moment.

I'm sure you all trust my knowledge on DPS by this point :P

Actually 2 strength for 20 accuracy assuming rapier.

oh, it's not +8 str? i always thought it was, whoops

 

1-sqrt(0.25/10) = 0.842

Rune Defender > DFS overall. (IMO)

Dragon Defender > Rune Defender. (Common sense)

Therefore, Dragon Defender > DFS overall. (IMO)

 

As mentioned before, DFS is very limited as far as situations go compared to Defender.

 

Even Monster Hunting, Defender can be (and should be) substitued in place of a DFS.

 

The only places I see as far as bosses go that DFS is better...

 

1. DK'S

2. Armadyl

3. Bandos (comparable)

 

Can't think of any others atm...

Rune Defender > DFS overall. (IMO)

Dragon Defender > Rune Defender. (Common sense)

Therefore, Dragon Defender > DFS overall. (IMO)

 

As mentioned before, DFS is very limited as far as situations go compared to Defender.

 

Even Monster Hunting, Defender can be (and should be) substitued in place of a DFS.

 

The only places I see as far as bosses go that DFS is better...

 

1. DK'S

2. Armadyl

3. Bandos (comparable)

 

Can't think of any others atm...

 

Those are pretty significant areas lol. I mean CLS is pretty much only useful for safe pvp and bandos yet people argue that it's still useful.... DFS is far more useful than CLS.

 

Defender is only clearly better for limited pvp scenarios (mostly dangerous) and slayer.

Knowing Jagex and how much like like to disappoint us, the DFS's added soak from the Defence update won't be nearly as good as the bonuses we get from the Dragon Defender.

 

Thus, since currently, Rune Defender > DFS at most places, Dragon Defender > DFS at most places.

 

Then again, also knowing Jagex, it'll be nigh-impossible to get a Dragon Defender because the place to get one won't be instanced and thus you'll be competing with everybody who wants one. Which will be a LOT of people. So I'm counting on a good DFS-Dragon Defender comparison probably not being out until around mid-January.

not necessarily , we can project the stats of it pretty accurately already. I have already analyzed it using 28 atk and 7 str and it's about a 5% increase in dps compared to defender

Rune Defender > DFS overall. (IMO)

Dragon Defender > Rune Defender. (Common sense)

Therefore, Dragon Defender > DFS overall. (IMO)

 

As mentioned before, DFS is very limited as far as situations go compared to Defender.

 

Even Monster Hunting, Defender can be (and should be) substitued in place of a DFS.

 

The only places I see as far as bosses go that DFS is better...

 

1. DK'S

2. Armadyl

3. Bandos (comparable)

 

Can't think of any others atm...

 

Those are pretty significant areas lol. I mean CLS is pretty much only useful for safe pvp and bandos yet people argue that it's still useful.... DFS is far more useful than CLS.

 

Defender is only clearly better for limited pvp scenarios (mostly dangerous) and slayer.

 

You're right, those are signifcant areas, and I agree, DFS does have it's place.

But you are leaving out the rest of the bosses, which is quite a big part of the game. While DFS is better at 3 of those, what about team GWD? 3 scenarios right there that defender is better than dfs (unless you're tanking ofcourse). KBD and TD's, defender > DFS (with 85 herb at KBD ofcourse).

 

Just like the CLS argument. It's not that the item is bad, there are just more places where accuracy is greater than defence (or strength, in the case of CLS).

I'm expecting Whip prices to rise with this upcoming update.

I'm expecting Whip prices to rise with this upcoming update.

 

Based on what? >_> Why would a new defender increase the demand for an item when defenders already existed as well as better alternative weaponry?

I'm expecting Whip prices to rise with this upcoming update.

 

Based on what? >_> Why would a new defender increase the demand for an item when defenders already existed as well as better alternative weaponry?

 

Knee jerk reaction? -.-

 

Seriously -- the whip remains an extremely popular weapon -- particularly amongst those people who don't spend all their time graphing charts and mathematical formulae to determine how many thousandsth of a hitpoint they will hit better with "x" weapon against "y" armour.

 

:rolleyes:

I'm expecting Whip prices to rise with this upcoming update.

 

Based on what? >_> Why would a new defender increase the demand for an item when defenders already existed as well as better alternative weaponry?

 

Knee jerk reaction? -.-

 

Seriously -- the whip remains an extremely popular weapon -- particularly amongst those people who don't spend all their time graphing charts and mathematical formulae to determine how many thousandsth of a hitpoint they will hit better with "x" weapon against "y" armour.

 

:rolleyes:

 

If you think that a whip is useful for any high level nowadays you are clearly either T or just very (and I mean extremely) S

 

Rapier is categorically better for anyone who has access to it...

 

And no I don't see how this update would affect whip any more than it does the other one handed weapons.

Knee jerk reaction? -.-

 

Seriously -- the whip remains an extremely popular weapon -- particularly amongst those people who don't spend all their time graphing charts and mathematical formulae to determine how many thousandsth of a hitpoint they will hit better with "x" weapon against "y" armour.

 

:rolleyes:

 

You don't need graphs to know that a rune scim is better than a whip, and that the chaotic tier is better than a whip, and so on. I just can't see why the release of a defender would increase the demand of a whip. It's not like people were holding off on purchasing their whips for the dragon defender. So I asked because I figured he'd have some reasoning to support the speculation that I didn't think of. That's all. o_O

 

EDIT: Flood filter gets me every time. I was looking for reasoning like Dyingsilent gave below. Thanks for it.

I'm expecting Whip prices to rise with this upcoming update.

 

Based on what? >_> Why would a new defender increase the demand for an item when defenders already existed as well as better alternative weaponry?

 

Whips and other 1-handed items will become more valueable, because they will become better with a Dragon Defender.

 

2-handed items, like godswords, get no new boosts, and therefore stay the same.

 

Basically, 1-handed items become more appealing because they are (will be) more powerful.

I'm expecting Whip prices to rise with this upcoming update.

 

Based on what? >_> Why would a new defender increase the demand for an item when defenders already existed as well as better alternative weaponry?

 

Knee jerk reaction? -.-

 

Seriously -- the whip remains an extremely popular weapon -- particularly amongst those people who don't spend all their time graphing charts and mathematical formulae to determine how many thousandsth of a hitpoint they will hit better with "x" weapon against "y" armour.

 

:rolleyes:

 

If you think that a whip is useful for any high level nowadays you are clearly either T or just very (and I mean extremely) S

 

Rapier is categorically better for anyone who can have it.

 

Who said a whip was "better"? :unsure:

 

The point is not everyone can have a rapier. Not everyone has the time to dedicate themselves to getting the levels for it.

 

A whip can be bought by anyone with 3+ mill and 70 attack.

 

Your problem, hun, is that you're "elite" -- and as such you've got your groove on for the top quality gear -- best weapons, potions the whole enchilada -- which is just fine for you. Really.

 

But the VAST majority of Runescape players fall well below such requirements -- people will buy what they can afford.

 

It's all about supply and demand.

Your problem, hun, is that you're "elite" -- and as such you've got your groove on for the top quality gear -- best weapons, potions the whole enchilada -- which is just fine for you. Really.

I lol'd

 

It's all about supply and demand.

 

Yes it is, and I honestly do not see demand rising that much. if you really want to get into the details of it, the only other purchasable substitute good for a whip is GSes, which are actually quite different. generally GS's are useless but in the cases where they are useful, they are more likely more than 5% better than a whip.

 

OT: ~5% DPS is actually pretty significant, but nothing groundbreaking. i still don't think it's enough to warrant using DD over DFS for situations like melee vs melee pvp. bandos is arguable but if the DD is very hard to get and always risked, perhaps not.

Your problem, hun, is that you're "elite" -- and as such you've got your groove on for the top quality gear -- best weapons, potions the whole enchilada -- which is just fine for you. Really.

 

I lol'd

 

OT: ~5% DPS is actually pretty significant, but nothing groundbreaking. i still don't think it's enough to warrant using DD over DFS for situations like melee vs melee pvp. bandos is arguable but if the DD is very hard to get and always risked, perhaps not.

 

My point is that there will likely be a "blip" in the GE on certain items -- particularly those more popular weapons (like whips) -- which will be entirely a result of the kiddies and their knee jerk reaction to the issuance of a Dragon Defender.

 

Oh -- THAT and the ensuing riot which will occur the moment that "PKer Fred" realizes that he's hitting 3 HP fewer after the whole armour absorbing thingie comes out ...

 

:rolleyes:

 

Oh -- THAT and the ensuing riot which will occur the moment that "PKer Fred" realizes that he's hitting 3 HP fewer after the whole armour absorbing thingie comes out ...

 

:rolleyes:

 

I'm looking forward to that :P

I'm expecting Whip prices to rise with this upcoming update.

 

Based on what? >_> Why would a new defender increase the demand for an item when defenders already existed as well as better alternative weaponry?

 

Knee jerk reaction? -.-

 

Seriously -- the whip remains an extremely popular weapon -- particularly amongst those people who don't spend all their time graphing charts and mathematical formulae to determine how many thousandsth of a hitpoint they will hit better with "x" weapon against "y" armour.

 

:rolleyes:

 

If you think that a whip is useful for any high level nowadays you are clearly either T or just very (and I mean extremely) S

 

 

 

I still use my whip over my rapier on the majority of my slayer tasks, for one simple reason: the rapier degrades based on attack turns (both yours AND your opponent's), and many of the slayer tasks I like to do are in multi-combat areas, with often two or three enemies attacking me at one time. Given that I am already hitting low 600s with my whip + turmoil + extremes and I am using a combat familiar for added damage, the DPS boost from the rapier is overkill in those situations and it is not (imo) worth the accelerated "charge" depletion. Therefore, I save the rapier for tasks like Dragons and Abyssal Demons, where I am fighting monsters with high HP that are in single-combat zones. Then again, there are some people who are efficiency nuts and prize the extra 3k exp an hour enough to use Overloads on slayer tasks, so...

What balance? DFS is already worse than the rune defender for everything.

 

Compare their defense bonuses. I have tried using rune defenders on slayer tasks, I get my butt kicked. It seems I need the defense from the DFS to survive.

 

I do look forward to the dragon defender, and damage absorb (maybe dfs will be better for that too?) I will not sell my DFS even if Dragon Defender blows it completely out of the water, because I like it. :)