Skilling in Pro DG

[Zaaps1]

Really dungeoneering is a team sport..

 

Why should you even think about going alone?

 

You'll have to help yourself by helping others.. Not by soloing large parts of the dungeon!

 

Because it's faster.

 

Yes there are some cases when there aren't very many doors that can be opened, but it's really best for the team if each member exercises some degree of Independence.

[TheAncient]

I'm not talking once you're half way.. I'm talking about the time when you just discovered that 1 challenge door, and you've got 3-4 open ends..

 

Or the time when you have only 2-3 open ends left and think about preparing for the boss.

 

i mean still, if a nonkeyer can solo and find a few denks to save the keyer like 20 seconds it's more than worth it. let alone gate a new branching path so that the keyer doesn't have to gate it and bring ggs there himself.

You're talking about w117 and yet saying this?

 

I once did this.. And had to talk to the keyer to drop his ggs (instead of key, I knew there was like 1/4th dungeon behind the door) for at least 3 minutes.... Never going to do that again.

 

Besides fishing takes what? 1 second a fish? That's faster food than any other method.

 

i havent been on 117 in forever, i guess more 148

 

fishing is at least 5-6 seconds a fish if you account for cooking and fishing time

 

properly doing gd's prevents a lot of damage for other teammates, speeds up the floor, gives you lots of food from drops, lets food drops be distributed evenly so there's less waste... list goes on. doing gd's well is a positive feedback loop - you do gd's well, so you get less damage and get more food so you can do more gd's well, etc etc. doing gd's poorly makes you get more damage and less food so you can't do as many gd's.

[pulli23]

I started with saying I only do skilling while no gd's/specialist doors are open! (and otherwise I'll tele in)

 

but really at my lvl (125 cmb, prome plate/2h - no hood) I can maybe rush through 2-3 rooms.. But at 4 difficult rooms I'm already wasting so much food it isn't funny! (and yes constantly praying)

[ghjkl]

Nope you're wrong. You said you only skill when there is nothing important at ggs, or at least implied that you would not walk to where you are needed but depend on the ggs.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

The biggest problem I have with potions, is distribution.

Any random will never think of "oh hey there will be melee potions at ggs for me to drink to clear GDs faster"

so, I'd definitely never make potions on a team with 2 or more randoms for this reason.

 

Second problem is the home tele needed to get a seed unless you get a lucky drop.

I'd rather not waste precious magebane/lyco drops that could otherwise be used on bonus room doors.

 

There's definitely potential in this. But I think most teams will focus on polishing more straightforward DG skills.

Because like you said, herb making in DG requires A LOT of discipline, otherwise you'll waste time making pots when you really shouldn't.

 

And that discipline is hard to maintain.

 

oh an PS muggi, you should try to find some better teams.

Beasts of burden + kata ore mining definitely is not current convention in any good teams I am aware of.

I'm sure there's a nontrivial number of tiffers who would be willing to pick you up for a few floors.

 

if you want armor, leather armor is significantly less time consuming to make (granted it's more suited towards hexhunter owners)

because you can fletch traps in between attacks.

setting up traps does not interrupt movement and takes 0 time (you can set up 28 traps in 1 game tick for example, just by spam clicking)

any dinosaur can be caught with any level trap, so you can just loot log drops or buy tier 1 logs from the smuggler instead of chop logs.

and most importantly you bring needle/thread along with you so there is no need to home teleport for the proverbial furnace/anvil.

 

I find leather armor superior when not keying.

When you key, you NEED to pray magic so mages don't entangle you.

But when clearing gds, you don't really care if you're bound. Especially if you have a hexhunter.

 

range pray I'd generally prefer in a GD where there is a balanced distribution of enemies.

mages tend to swap target players (Skeletal mages, books, and ghosts namely, not forgotten mages)

so if there are 4 players in the room, there's only a 1/4 chance that a skeletal mage will attack you.

Books and ghosts swap targets less often.

 

forgotten mages also have a slower attack rate than rangers.

Forgotten mages, necromancers, and reborn mages also cast spells like "stun" that reduce stats but don't really deal damage.

These spells cost them a turn they would otherwise be attacking, further lowering their damage rate.

 

as for meleers, safestep solves 90% of scenarios.

so melee def is kinda useless aside from the first 1-3 hits you take setting up your safespot.

[jettrider]

With random teams there's always too much confusion over who's making a potion to do anything like trying to distribute one on hand >.< With familiar teams or voice communication it's much easier, although it takes only a few seconds longer to deal with skill doors the conventional way (free gate gates it, gets based herbs, opens or brings GGS back to it after GDs). Yes, every few seconds helps, but saving 20 seconds in a 1500 second dungeon is only a 1.3% speed increase. With something like growing a herb at the beginning of the dungeon - you can always grow it while doing a GD after you find the door, or let it grow while doing the boss to not lose time. It doesn't necessarily have to be right away.

 

Mining prom ore in the first room in between GDs is definitely worth it though. 90 mining is an important level.

[Youmu]

Lol @ anyone who thinks armor making is even worth it (pointing at the first 2 replies).

 

Seriously, test it out yourself - full set of armor vs no arming. Against high level monsters and bosses the two makes so little difference since 1) higher level NPCs have extremely accurate and strong attacks and 2) you're going to be praying anyway so what's the point.

 

I'm a f2per so non-GDs can actually be fatal (only dusk eels are dropped that only heal 70 LP), but calling your team members to GDs is still important for the keyer(s) to progress.

 

One more thing: Never never never never NEVER team with randoms! 9 out of 10 they will NEVER listen to you and insist on doing their own thing. A large dg in f2p I keyed with 4 other randoms that should have taken 45 minutes at most ended up becoming a 90 minute fest all because the other 4 were being ABSOLUTE JACKASSES. When I say GGS tele, GGS TELE. When I tell you to clear this GD, CLEAR THIS GD. When I tell you to do this skill puzzle, DO THIS SKILL PUZZLE. When I tell you to stop skilling, STOP SKILLING GODDAMMIT.

 

What ended up was that NO ONE was listening at all. I ended up having to SOLO CLEAR (yes you read that right) a lot of GDs with high level monsters (100+!). When you're a combat 87 with only tier 5 weapons at your disposal, you can't do much.

 

I wish people can just look up a dg guide or something... randoms are so stupid it's not even funny.

[muggiwhplar]

The biggest problem I have with potions, is distribution.

Any random will never think of "oh hey there will be melee potions at ggs for me to drink to clear GDs faster"

so, I'd definitely never make potions on a team with 2 or more randoms for this reason.

 

Second problem is the home tele needed to get a seed unless you get a lucky drop.

I'd rather not waste precious magebane/lyco drops that could otherwise be used on bonus room doors.

 

There's definitely potential in this. But I think most teams will focus on polishing more straightforward DG skills.

Because like you said, herb making in DG requires A LOT of discipline, otherwise you'll waste time making pots when you really shouldn't.

 

And that discipline is hard to maintain.

 

oh an PS muggi, you should try to find some better teams.

Beasts of burden + kata ore mining definitely is not current convention in any good teams I am aware of.

I'm sure there's a nontrivial number of tiffers who would be willing to pick you up for a few floors.

 

if you want armor, leather armor is significantly less time consuming to make (granted it's more suited towards hexhunter owners)

because you can fletch traps in between attacks.

setting up traps does not interrupt movement and takes 0 time (you can set up 28 traps in 1 game tick for example, just by spam clicking)

any dinosaur can be caught with any level trap, so you can just loot log drops or buy tier 1 logs from the smuggler instead of chop logs.

and most importantly you bring needle/thread along with you so there is no need to home teleport for the proverbial furnace/anvil.

 

I find leather armor superior when not keying.

When you key, you NEED to pray magic so mages don't entangle you.

But when clearing gds, you don't really care if you're bound. Especially if you have a hexhunter.

 

range pray I'd generally prefer in a GD where there is a balanced distribution of enemies.

mages tend to swap target players (Skeletal mages, books, and ghosts namely, not forgotten mages)

so if there are 4 players in the room, there's only a 1/4 chance that a skeletal mage will attack you.

Books and ghosts swap targets less often.

 

forgotten mages also have a slower attack rate than rangers.

Forgotten mages, necromancers, and reborn mages also cast spells like "stun" that reduce stats but don't really deal damage.

These spells cost them a turn they would otherwise be attacking, further lowering their damage rate.

 

as for meleers, safestep solves 90% of scenarios.

so melee def is kinda useless aside from the first 1-3 hits you take setting up your safespot.

 

Well I'm only 76 dg right now, so I'm stuck using 117 unless I consult other tiffers like you suggested. Though, through happenstance I've bumped into a few tiffers in my dungeons along the way and they've usually been valuable assets to my team-- however at the same time they're usually quite bossy and stressed-out on maximizing efficiency... this attitude sucks all the fun out of the skill imo. I'm not saying all dg efficiency junkies are type-A personalities; it's just that from my personal experience, anybody who bosses the team around to maximize efficiency quickly becomes the most valuable and most hated player in the team lol

 

I have fun spending (wasting) my time mining/smithing katagon and fishing blue crabs, and so far no one in 117 has objected to it-- they usually appreciate it when I supply everyone with goodies. It takes me about an hour to do a large dungeon, and after each dungeon I'm always excited to do another one. If I was stressing myself out by racing against the clock all the time, there's no way I'd be willing to continue doing dungeons on a consistent basis. Again, not everyone is like me (*directs reader's attention to the post above mine*)-- some people enjoy completing dungeons as fast as they can, and they never get tired of doing it that way. Similarly, there's some things in RS which I do with the utmost efficiency and never get sick of doing it that way.

 

but as far as my dungeoneering strategy goes, some call it slow... I call it relaxed and under control :)

[All_Is_Great]

 

 

But, to contribute, if there was an altar very close to the base, I usually build either a farming patch or a range.

The farming patch is very convenient because it means I don't have to gs another patch, and the range burns ALOT less food with even a t4 log. My FM levels and cooking levels aren't that high to begin with.

 

idk, i'd do this but with a farm patch (i still think cooking/fishing is a waste); but smithing the bars is SO slow so i don't think it's worth it. plus it's much better to use patches that you're already at (in GD's) than have to HT every time

 

 

I agree smithing bars is VERY slow. Is superheat available in game? Idk.

I'm talking about specific situations though, and most often, an altar is better.

 

Tbh, I'm on the same page as myweapon, there really isn't much more to dissect, I mean, you're on the level of saying "you can lay 28 traps in 1 tick" or "humidify saves x ticks". Those are neat tricks, I agree, but for the majority, I doubt they take this into account when playing. Plus, you're on a perm team that has very good chemistry, and are very familiar with each others' skillsets. Most of the time, in a random team, it's very hard to individuals to just take up the responsibility of making pots or mining ores for ragers.

 

Also, I just want to be clear that I have nothing against being efficient. I think it's neat that you guys put in this much work to play better. It's just posts like Green's really tick me off. A "lol" response to someone who is genuinely responding would put everyone off don't you think?

[muggiwhplar]

Lol @ anyone who thinks armor making is even worth it (pointing at the first 2 replies).

 

Seriously, test it out yourself - full set of armor vs no arming. Against high level monsters and bosses the two makes so little difference since 1) higher level NPCs have extremely accurate and strong attacks and 2) you're going to be praying anyway so what's the point.

 

I'm a f2per so non-GDs can actually be fatal (only dusk eels are dropped that only heal 70 LP), but calling your team members to GDs is still important for the keyer(s) to progress.

 

One more thing: Never never never never NEVER team with randoms! 9 out of 10 they will NEVER listen to you and insist on doing their own thing. A large dg in f2p I keyed with 4 other randoms that should have taken 45 minutes at most ended up becoming a 90 minute fest all because the other 4 were being ABSOLUTE JACKASSES. When I say GGS tele, GGS TELE. When I tell you to clear this GD, CLEAR THIS GD. When I tell you to do this skill puzzle, DO THIS SKILL PUZZLE. When I tell you to stop skilling, STOP SKILLING GODDAMMIT.

 

What ended up was that NO ONE was listening at all. I ended up having to SOLO CLEAR (yes you read that right) a lot of GDs with high level monsters (100+!). When you're a combat 87 with only tier 5 weapons at your disposal, you can't do much.

 

I wish people can just look up a dg guide or something... randoms are so stupid it's not even funny.

 

They probably do not wish to cooperate because you sound like an authoritarian leader lol

 

Also, I just want to be clear that I have nothing against being efficient. I think it's neat that you guys put in this much work to play better. It's just posts like Green's really tick me off. A "lol" response to someone who is genuinely responding would put everyone off don't you think?

 

Yeah, not gonna lie it's hard to maintain respect for certain people on these forums when they go from using their "intelligence" to help others, to using it to be a [bleep]. Seriously, how hard is it to offer constructive criticism if someone's "obviously" doing something wrong? When you tell everyone, "You're not only wrong, but also an idiot for doing things your way instead of my mathematically superior way," it's no surprise that nobody on these forums likes you lol

[Squisher_33]

good dungers can skill without slowing down the pace, certain skills are just moer accepted than others

[Youmu]

They probably do not wish to cooperate because you sound like an authoritarian leader lol

Keep in mind that I do not act like that while doing a dg.

 

It's just that even when I DO call for help politely, they just pass on my comment like it's not there or something. And THAT'S what made me vent like hell in the first place.

[TheAncient]

Also, I just want to be clear that I have nothing against being efficient. I think it's neat that you guys put in this much work to play better. It's just posts like Green's really tick me off. A "lol" response to someone who is genuinely responding would put everyone off don't you think?

 

I can empathize with this. It's really that with certain people there comes a point where discussion is pretty futile - taking the time to reason it out with these people is often unproductive. so it's become habit just to disregard these people. often, reasonable posters that deserve a thorough explanation get brushed off in this manner.

 

As with bossy dg leaders, yes - they're not very well liked, but at the end of the day it's the most direct way of letting people know whether or not their DG strategies work or not. i am a pretty bossy keyer on w148 because people don't listen to me; if they do listen, i wouldn't be mean to them. it's not a very good leadership style but dg is not the type of environment that allows for gentle coaxing.

 

yeah, this sums it up well

It's just that even when I DO call for help politely, they just pass on my comment like it's not there or something. And THAT'S what made me vent like hell in the first place.

 

once you play with a good team and good keyers you come to expect a certain amount of effort and RESPONSIVENESS on everyone's part, and it's really frustrating when this doesn't happen.

[pulli23]

Also, I just want to be clear that I have nothing against being efficient. I think it's neat that you guys put in this much work to play better. It's just posts like Green's really tick me off. A "lol" response to someone who is genuinely responding would put everyone off don't you think?

 

I can empathize with this. It's really that with certain people there comes a point where discussion is pretty futile - taking the time to reason it out with these people is often unproductive. so it's become habit just to disregard these people. often, reasonable posters that deserve a thorough explanation get brushed off in this manner.

 

As with bossy dg leaders, yes - they're not very well liked, but at the end of the day it's the most direct way of letting people know whether or not their DG strategies work or not. i am a pretty bossy keyer on w148 because people don't listen to me; if they do listen, i wouldn't be mean to them. it's not a very good leadership style but dg is not the type of environment that allows for gentle coaxing.

 

yeah, this sums it up well

It's just that even when I DO call for help politely, they just pass on my comment like it's not there or something. And THAT'S what made me vent like hell in the first place.

 

once you play with a good team and good keyers you come to expect a certain amount of effort and RESPONSIVENESS on everyone's part, and it's really frustrating when this doesn't happen.

why not? - It's what you made it yourself because you want it to be stressfull..

 

I rather have a relaxing, fun time: since in the end we play for fun. And as long as I have fun I don't mind if I reach my goal in 1 day or 10 years fun is most important.

[TheAncient]

why not? - It's what you made it yourself because you want it to be stressfull..

 

I rather have a relaxing, fun time: since in the end we play for fun. And as long as I have fun I don't mind if I reach my goal in 1 day or 10 years fun is most important.

 

It's really not stressful - it IS fun - when dungs are going well and everyone knows what they're supposed to do. I don't even DG for a reason - i have no DG target, i have all the chaotics i really need/want - but I still do it anyway for fun. Running sub 20 minute floors or soloing a boss etc. or otherwise being good in a dung is probably the most fun skilling you can have.

[All_Is_Great]

Yea but playing efficient is fun for them. I even get that lol.

 

It's just not a good thing to disregard others with a "lol" or "i hope that was trolling" because they offer something from a different viewpoint.

 

Kinda hard with this thread though haha, that's "pro DG" in the title.

[pulli23]

why not? - It's what you made it yourself because you want it to be stressfull..

 

I rather have a relaxing, fun time: since in the end we play for fun. And as long as I have fun I don't mind if I reach my goal in 1 day or 10 years fun is most important.

 

It's really not stressful - it IS fun - when dungs are going well and everyone knows what they're supposed to do. I don't even DG for a reason - i have no DG target, i have all the chaotics i really need/want - but I still do it anyway for fun. Running sub 20 minute floors or soloing a boss etc. or otherwise being good in a dung is probably the most fun skilling you can have.

Yet I love to "build up" a person, see your strength increase through the dungeon, making sources invinsible by havign all things ready! - And helping team mates being stronger than ever before.

 

Now since in dungeoneering you've got to play together you've got to find a way in which everyone feels relaxed. - This is important, not only in dungeoneering but everywhere where you form a team. And people will listen better if you let them feel better!

[TheAncient]

It's just not a good thing to disregard others with a "lol" or "i hope that was trolling" because they offer something from a different viewpoint.

 

I agree with this, but it really depends on the person... certain people go beyond a level of acceptable ignorance and most people don't. but like you said, i intended for this post really to only be for people who like fast dungs.

 

Yet I love to "build up" a person, see your strength increase through the dungeon, making sources invinsible by havign all things ready! - And helping team mates being stronger than ever before.

 

I agree - that's why I wanted to see if there's room for this, even in "pro dg'ers" speed mentality. which there is, i think.

 

being able to tank and destroy a merc more or less solo cause you're strongpotted and have an extra prayer pot is really nice. it's a good feeling. who doesn't like hitting 600+? i just think there are better ways to getting these abilities as fast as possibile without sacrificing the overall smoothness of the dungeon.

 

But just to bring up an example - to REALLY help out your team, don't food hog! So many people wait around for a monster to die just so that they can loot the food after it dies. this doesn't make sense if you don't need food. if you're not keying, and have an armor plate, you really only need like 2 food at any given time. heck, i even do fine in some monos without food cause i soulsplit flick. if you don't have a plate, 4-5 food should do. leave food on the ground for your teammates after a monser dies. this saves you time because you can directly kill other monsters without having to wait for the death animation - being efficient - and saves your teammates from dying - being relaxed.

[green9090]

Yea but playing efficient is fun for them. I even get that lol.

 

It's just not a good thing to disregard others with a "lol" or "i hope that was trolling" because they offer something from a different viewpoint.

 

Kinda hard with this thread though haha, that's "pro DG" in the title.

There are only so many times you can explain how blatantly stupid making armor is (for ANY playstyle!) before you just stop taking those people seriously. At this point, people on this forum who still endorse making armor are typing with their eyes shut tight and garner no more respect from me than trolls. If you want to slow down your dungeoneering teams on purpose and be responsible for making world 117/148 hell for people who can actually play, why the HELL are you posting about it on a thread about efficient dungeoneering? Get out of here!

[TheAncient]

good dungers can skill without slowing down the pace, certain skills are just moer accepted than others

 

this really depends on if your keyer is good at maintaining GGS location at relevant locations imo

 

also i think pro dgers are very reluctant to accept any form of skilling, when in fact there's quite a few skills which you can do near-lossless

[tuggernongy]

*lurk*

 

Interesting reading in here, as someone who likes playing efficiently and is planning on doing DG seriously after maxing out other skills, it's nice to see the thoughts on this and the priorities from those that have a similar playstyle.

 

....Try not to get too derailed though you guys, and if you're the sort of person who likes to go at their own pace and do 1 hour larges, this topic probably isn't for you.

[TheAncient]

The biggest problem I have with potions, is distribution.

Any random will never think of "oh hey there will be melee potions at ggs for me to drink to clear GDs faster"

so, I'd definitely never make potions on a team with 2 or more randoms for this reason.

I usually announce that a strongpot is dropped. I usu drop them at the GD everyone is doing because then everyone sees it

 

Second problem is the home tele needed to get a seed unless you get a lucky drop.

I'd rather not waste precious magebane/lyco drops that could otherwise be used on bonus room doors.

that's why you can use your early gates at or near home; also that's why i save 1-2 unf lycs (1 for a strongpot later and 1 for skilldoor). the benefit of premaking pots / farming is twofold: save time for pot doors AND boost combat abilities.

 

I find leather armor superior when not keying.

personally i like primal over sagg even when not keying, but idk i dont have a hex. mainly i like the fact that i don't have to waste prayer on soloing single skeles or zombies (in most cases)

 

range pray I'd generally prefer in a GD where there is a balanced distribution of enemies.

mages tend to swap target players (Skeletal mages, books, and ghosts namely, not forgotten mages)

so if there are 4 players in the room, there's only a 1/4 chance that a skeletal mage will attack you.

Books and ghosts swap targets less often.

yeah range pray is pretty underrated imo. mage pray is a definite for running around but for prolonged fights range pray can be very good. a lot comes down to being able to instantly judge what you should use.

 

forgotten mages also have a slower attack rate than rangers.

Forgotten mages, necromancers, and reborn mages also cast spells like "stun" that reduce stats but don't really deal damage.

These spells cost them a turn they would otherwise be attacking, further lowering their damage rate.

also, the hood detection spell takes an attack turn

[Matt_Marche]

so melee def is kinda useless aside from the first 1-3 hits you take setting up your safespot.

 

If only you could teach everyone this

[pulli23]

so melee def is kinda useless aside from the first 1-3 hits you take setting up your safespot.

 

If only you could teach everyone this

SAFESPOTS DO NOT WORK

 

after 2-3 seconds everything will move away from its safe spot and "retargets" you.

[Viv]

um yeh perm team dg is way different than randoms....when i find a skilldoor in a random dg i announce it whole dg and then finish everything and find out noone did....

 

anyway....

 

definately worth it to plant a seed found in a gd and base ly /winter /mage/wormwood for skilldooors

 

ragers have one person mine prom and have people collect blue charms and then trade for scrolls

 

pros drop thier fish stuff then hit a fish room and say "yo soomeone else do"

 

honestly i see alot of people 120 that fish multiple times a dg i say its rarely rarely efficient........only for old kalger and no hex necros oor when noone at all has food...shuld be for keyer to

 

 

I SUPPORT FULL NOVITE FOR KALGER =)

 

chop grave creeper for firestaff/bows for necro or other stuff

 

yes its good to explore dgs without the keyer but ggs when needed and call what doors gated/or what dooors at

 

tbh i agree with the people that said the tip.it people here are more rageeeee than anyone i dged with some usually they say how fail the dg was really when my friends are more relaxed about it heck even the pro efficiency players dont rage as much about time and stuff sub 25 min dgs are good but if you have randoms on team dont rage if its 30-35......i quit dg 3 weeks ago at like 115m exp tho then i didnt make any random teams 115-120m exp so :)