Skilling in Pro DG

[pulli23]

Define "pro" then.

And I'll argue that my definition is better.

 

You're now just acting as a self-declared "proffesional" in an unexisting subject.

 

 

Besides if you think my posts are stupid, just ignore me that solves everything. And untill a moderate bans me I'll keep posting my input.

[green9090]

on a separate note (not in response to you, racheya):

i'd just like to point out - if you don't agree with our "rush" dging style, that's fine. i can understand why. but don't try to claim that your way of dging is more fun (or even more relaxed) than "rushing" because that may not necessarily be true.

No of course I won't say what is more fun:

 

However if case might be we team together, you shouldn't be bossy and "force" others to do it your style.. You should, together with the rest of the team find the style your team fits best. - Dungeoneering is a team sport, and in team sports not only the egoist counts. You have to find the middle route, the route in which everyone feels "ok". I'll try to hurry a bit more and neglect the build, you slow down your pace and play more safe!

And unless you're searching for this middle route you'll never be a good leader and you won't get natural authority!

Besides you could ask any team, really almost any team which had me in their team: they'll all say I'm pretty helpfull - I am always the first to rush into gd's to tank, I am the one who first creates armour & food for others (I only need 3 food pieces don't I? - pray counts for the rest and if need is high I tele out). Also in real life I'm often credited for resolving internal conflicts and I try to do this too during dungeon teams. The only times I'm not helpful is when finding myself an authorian leader who really talks as a stressed teenager who is completelly deaf for other opinions. Then I get the feeling they don't want to put personal profit below group profit, and then you won't see me being helpful. (I might just quit the dungeon as soon as I hear the first 2 sentences, no use in arguing for an hour and still being in the same room).

 

 

Ok, but it's not like he refuses to help at GDs, didn't he say he ggs to GDs at first call? Not like those Sonikku explained, those who have everything go over their head.

 

coming from experience, i can tell you this is a lot harder than it sounds when you're skilling. it's really annoying to be halfway into making a pot and then have to teleport back.

THAT is actually something I am personally quite good at (managing multiple things at the same time).. I'm just terrible when feeling stressed.

This is all fine if nobody cares how quickly they get experience, but some people are at 117/148 simply to get OUT of 117/148 as quickly as they possibly can, and the only way out is through. If you get a dungeon full of armor makers and time wasters, the only solution is either to convince them they're wasting time or quit- there's no point in spending twice as long on a floor as you could.

 

If your goal in dungeoneering is something other than gaining dungeoneering experience, that's fine, but you should really find a group of likeminded people and dungeoneer with them. Slowing down people who are trying to progress is a [bleep] move.

[Obtaurian]

Define "pro" then.

And I'll argue that my definition is better.

 

You're now just acting as a self-declared "proffesional" in an unexisting subject.

 

 

Besides if you think my posts are stupid, just ignore me that solves everything. And untill a moderate bans me I'll keep posting my input.

 

"Pro" means trying to maximize experience gains. That's it. You can't argue that your definition is better, because you're the only person in this thread who will listen to you. I'm not asking you to not post -- I'm asking you to stop being obnoxious and argumentative in a thread that clearly has nothing to do with your play-style.

 

FYI, I'm far from a professional DGer -- I'm just looking for knowledge on how to improve so that I can eventually join the pro teams. I'm trying to learn from this thread, and you're being very unhelpful.

[pulli23]

Why shoudl "I" move and not "you"?

 

And as I keep saying: when working together you've got to find the middle route. Once you decide to team up you're in the same boat and you'll only get out together!

 

@Obt:

I define pro as being "proffesional": knowing everything, being very good.

Now let's look at dungeoneering:

what is it - what makes this skill special above other skills? - It is a skill which requires a team to complete dungeon and beat a final boss at the end of the dungeon, working together to solve the impossibility of a sole person.

I see 2 important keywords there: team & working together

I define the quality of a person in this skill by these 2 words. Someone is a "pro" if you are good in these keywords. If you can work as a team (or as pro: make people who can't work as a team suddenly work as a team), and if you work together.

 

Just FYI:

I'm not a pro, nor will I ever be. I'm not a natural born leader - though in my study I am taught how to lead people.

[TheAncient]

like i said before, you can only try to sound constructive and be nice so long... a lot of people just DO NOT respond. there's not even an open line of communication and there's nothing you can do about it because theyre probably watching tv.

 

not to sound condescending, but out of curiosity do you key often in w117/148? getting experience keying is probably the best way to learn both keying and non-keying

 

and yes, teamwork IS vital. it's exactly why it's good to listen to the keyer, even if he "sounds" like a jerk. keyers need to put the most effort into a dung so it's not suprirsed they might sound stressed out.

[Obtaurian]

Why shoudl "I" move and not "you"?

 

Because this thread pertains to my interests, not yours. Obviously. :mellow:

[Amethyst_Gem]

Personally I go at whatever pace the rest of the team seems to want me to go at. Sometimes you get teams that want you to go fast, sometimes you get teams that want you to make people armour. My stats are heavily inclined towards skilling and I will skill to make anything the team needs.

 

I think of myself as being good at skilling in dungeons and not so good at the combat elements. So I spend a lot of the time making pots/doing skilling doors (I will often do these while other people are doing gds, particularly ones that take a long time like the vine room) or fishing and cooking food, which there is ALWAYS a big demand for unless some idiot has spent all the teams cash on food.

 

Of course if there is more than one person doing this then it slows down the dungeon a LOT. But my skilling stats are almost inevitably higher than anyone else in the team's so it is usually me that is wanted for that sort of thing.

 

I DO ggs for gds if not doing something important at the time.

 

My very rough priorities (adapted for the dungeon):

 

Finishing cooking once I've lit the logs (so as not to waste them - doesnt take long anyway) > Doing skilling doors I am already on (except vine room where i will make gs and come back :P) > ggsing for skilling doors > making essential items for the boss if the dg is almost done > ggsing for doing rooms > making altar > making pots > fishing > other skilling

 

If for any reason I don't ggs immediately I will ALWAYS explain why I am not.

 

The only things that annoy me are:

- When people waste all the cash on stuff like fish when it is wanted for more important things

- When people hoard items that they arent using

- When people dont talk to each other

- When people just stand around completely wasting time

 

^ those four are what cause dungeons to fail imo.

[pulli23]

like i said before, you can only try to sound constructive and be nice so long... a lot of people just DO NOT respond. there's not even an open line of communication and there's nothing you can do about it because theyre probably watching tv.

 

not to sound condescending, but out of curiosity do you key often in w117/148? getting experience keying is probably the best way to learn both keying and non-keying

If they are kick them from your team? - If I key (I'd love to do it once in a while in good teams I AM the one who often remembers doors more, however as I keep forgetting to hoard food I keep getting no food as keyer) I simply demand the rest of the team to be responsive: otherwise I'll just sit down and read a book. - I'm not a natural born leader and won't try to convince others to follow me, so if they don't follow be my guest and do it your way. That is IF I key..

 

@obt:

way to take a quote out of its reference (it was ment against greens post, your post was edit while I was making my reply). But this thread indeed interests me a lot, maybe in a different way than you though.

[TheAncient]

Finishing cooking once I've lit the logs (so as not to waste them - doesnt take long anyway) > Doing skilling doors I am already on (except vine room where i will make gs and come back :P) > ggsing for skilling doors > making essential items for the boss if the dg is almost done > ggsing for doing rooms > making altar > making pots > fishing > other skilling

 

i can see you are well intentioned but i don't really agree with this order. youre using the same reasoning as most skillers which although is intended to be constructive is ultimately terrible for a team.

 

it should be: ggsing for skill doors > doing skill doors you're at <> (depends on the situation) GD's > (gating doors) > etc.

 

wasting a set of logs is NOTHING compared to having the keyer wait at a skill door and probably die.

If they are kick them from your team? - If I key (I'd love to do it once in a while in good teams I AM the one who often remembers doors more, however as I keep forgetting to hoard food I keep getting no food as keyer) I simply demand the rest of the team to be responsive: otherwise I'll just sit down and read a book. - I'm not a natural born leader and won't try to convince others to follow me, so if they don't follow be my guest and do it your way. That is IF I key..

 

that sounds pretty bossy to me, lol. i mean if you have something against bossy players who arent keying that's a totally different issue. unless the team is totally stupid there's no reason for nonkeyers to tell everyone what to do.

[Nifflin]

Define "pro" then.

And I'll argue that my definition is better.

 

You're now just acting as a self-declared "proffesional" in an unexisting subject.

 

 

Besides if you think my posts are stupid, just ignore me that solves everything. And untill a moderate bans me I'll keep posting my input.

 

No he's not. A pro in this context is the best of the best which is defined in dungoneering by having the best exp/h. This tread is not about your personal playstyle, it is about skilling in the context of those who are able to attain the highest exp/h rates. I'm learning something for the day when I get to that level of play, you are spamming up this thread with offtopic arguments. If you want a mod to have to come in and clean up your posts it shouldn't be too hard to call one.

[muggiwhplar]

"You'd best change your point of view. Stop blaming me, thinking I'm the problem. If you think I'm the problem, then you have to change me. If you realize that you're the problem, then you can change yourself, learn something and grow wiser. Most people want everyone else in the world to change but themselves. Let me tell you, it's easier to change yourself than everyone else."

[SirIzenhime]

I don't really know much about rushing, since I don't do it. The team I go with actually does things like make armor and clear rooms between GD's

But just based on what I've read here from the "pro" DGers, you've basically got it all covered. The only thing I could even think to add is Making Gauntlets and boots, and those would be at the very END of the list...so chances are you'd never find that much time to do all the other acceptable skilling to get there.

 

I think it you're stuck at a slow puzzle, have certain people do certain skilling.

Have only one person making laws/cosmics for everyone, not just people making them for themselves.

Have one person mining a prom rock

One person farming Lyco/winter's (heck, since monsters are bound to drop these herbs anyways, this probably isn't even needed either)

One person fishing if there's a salve+ spot around

And of course the other person doing the puzzle.

 

As far as pro DGing is concerned, the only skilling that is really needed is mining a prom rock for ragers, since everything else can be dropped by monsters. This is also assuming everyone is smart enough to make themselves a small pile of runes at the start.

 

You guys can go do your pro rushes, I'll stick to my 45-60 minute skilling dungeons :thumbup:

[jettrider]

uhm most people (over 99%) aren't lv 99.. so it's voidless to talk about 3rd binds!

 

3 binds is at 100 dungeoneering, not 99. And this is a thread about Pro DG.

 

 

If you just run into a room by yourself and attack the first monster you see, of course it's going to seem very hard and you're going to die if you don't have a ridiculous amount of armour. However, I look at every room as a tactical challenge to solve and you'd be amazed how much it helps. If you want more on this I can make a longer post.

 

Yes please, especially for people with only 2 or 3 items bound.

 

My thought process when entering a new room or gtgding is something like this:

 

1. Is any terrain available? If there are walls separating two parts of the room, I'll try to trap as many monsters as possible on one side while I pick off the ones on my side (even if I would normally kill those monsters last).

 

2. When entering an open area: Are there any necromancers/reborn mages/dragons? If so, you want to kill those first and use them to block all the melee monsters. Remember, if a monster is diagonal from you, it will move east/west first THEN north/south, so if you are like this:

 

[You][Mage]

[Melee]

 

You should walk one square north of the mage and the meleer will be trapped. It's important that no one runs through the mage because once you step off the square the meleer can walk through the block.

 

3. The next priority is forgotten mages, followed by ghosts/books/skeleton mages. Keep praying mage and blocking meleers north/south in between hits. If you have no armour and are low on food, and there are no dangerous mages left, you can sometimes find a semi-safe spot in the room where only one meleer can attack you (behind a pillar usually).

 

4. Once that's done, you need to assess the styles your team has. Anyone with a HHB should be killing demons (and you could have left the mages for them too). If there are no HHB, surgeboxes work on demons faster than melee, and surgeboxes should also be taking down t9+ forgotten warriors. The rest can be meleed, switching between slash and crush as needed. Use meleers to block other meleers and pray range if there are multiple high leveled rangers in the room.

 

5. After everythings dead (or in between hits) pick up charms/herbs/food/etc. Look around for chests if your team needs cash. If you have a decent amount of food, your priority should be opening the next door ASAP and telling your keyer what's there ("ie, gd->pcres") or getting a key from a dead end and putting it at GGS.

 

Note: at all times you want to be flashing either turmoil or soul split. Flash turmoil BEFORE you hit if you are fighting a mage or have full health. Flash Soul Split WHILE you hit if you are down health and the GD is fairly safe.

 

 

Of course you will sometimes get a deathtrap in a small space, but even then you can hide behind terrain to limit what can attack you while systematically dispatching the most dangerous monsters with the effects of turmoil and the best style. If you just run into a deathtrap construct room and try to fight with no armour....then yes it's going to seem hard. The best way to handle it is to run in, grab chisel/stone, run out and make+imbue the item, run in and repair+charge the construct, then run out and do something else. When it goes all the way around the monsters will be naturally spread out. Barrels, you're typically only spending two seconds in dangerous territory because you push the barrels quickly, so you just need to go in with full health to survive. Fishing rooms are not as bad as people think because you can block almost all the melee attacks with other monsters or by running around to the fishing spot; also, you never need more than 3 cooked fish to do a puzzle, usually 2, so it's not very long of a puzzle.

[green9090]

"You'd best change your point of view. Stop blaming me, thinking I'm the problem. If you think I'm the problem, then you have to change me. If you realize that you're the problem, then you can change yourself, learn something and grow wiser. Most people want everyone else in the world to change but themselves. Let me tell you, it's easier to change yourself than everyone else."

Oh don't worry, I have enough high level DG friends to never have to DG with people like you again. We don't need to change ourselves because we've already far surpassed people like you. Funny how that works out- you make an effort to do something the best way and you end up better at it than other people.

[Dr_Vermin]

Nice thread. I didn't know that leather armour took a short time to make - I had always assumed that cutting the logs, fletching, laying traps and crafting the armour would take ages. But if logs can be found and most of the steps can be done between attacks, I guess it would hardly take any time.

 

There's one issue where I'm not certain which is technically better - fishing & making armour, or clearing for level mod? (when there's nothing else to do ofc)

 

Clearing for an extra 1-2 % exp does give you more exp/hr (assuming it doesnt take all your pray and food), whereas extra food is mostly unnecessary.

However, in the unlikely event that extra food is needed, due to 5 mercs in a row or something, having a few pieces of raw food already at base is a huge help that saves a lot of time. People say that fishing is never needed, but I would argue that it's sometimes needed, just extremely rarely (maybe 1 in 50-100 floors, with a decent team).

[pulli23]

"You'd best change your point of view. Stop blaming me, thinking I'm the problem. If you think I'm the problem, then you have to change me. If you realize that you're the problem, then you can change yourself, learn something and grow wiser. Most people want everyone else in the world to change but themselves. Let me tell you, it's easier to change yourself than everyone else."

Oh don't worry, I have enough high level DG friends to never have to DG with people like you again. We don't need to change ourselves because we've already far surpassed people like you. Funny how that works out- you make an effort to do something the best way and you end up better at it than other people.

elitism at its best worst!

Does this really have a place at a public site such as tipit?

 

Anyways I'm telling you that I think someone who can make a dungeon with random (but responsive/kind people) decently fast is more proffesional than someone who does it with a set team of people.

And then suddenly leading skills & also capability to find the golden middle is important!

[green9090]

Nice thread. I didn't know that leather armour took a short time to make - I had always assumed that cutting the logs, fletching, laying traps and crafting the armour would take ages. But if logs can be found and most of the steps can be done between attacks, I guess it would hardly take any time.

 

There's one issue where I'm not certain which is technically better - fishing & making armour, or clearing for level mod? (when there's nothing else to do ofc)

 

Clearing for an extra 1-2 % exp does give you more exp/hr (assuming it doesnt take all your pray and food), whereas extra food is mostly unnecessary.

However, in the unlikely event that extra food is needed, due to 5 mercs in a row or something, having a few pieces of raw food already at base is a huge help that saves a lot of time. People say that fishing is never needed, but I would argue that it's sometimes needed, just extremely rarely (maybe 1 in 50-100 floors, with a decent team).

Clearing for level mod has the advantage of also yielding food- usually a lot of it. The only time you should be fishing is early in the dungeon when monsters are still dropping no food and then you hit a monolith room.

[TheAncient]

[hide]

uhm most people (over 99%) aren't lv 99.. so it's voidless to talk about 3rd binds!

 

3 binds is at 100 dungeoneering, not 99. And this is a thread about Pro DG.

 

 

If you just run into a room by yourself and attack the first monster you see, of course it's going to seem very hard and you're going to die if you don't have a ridiculous amount of armour. However, I look at every room as a tactical challenge to solve and you'd be amazed how much it helps. If you want more on this I can make a longer post.

 

Yes please, especially for people with only 2 or 3 items bound.

 

My thought process when entering a new room or gtgding is something like this:

 

1. Is any terrain available? If there are walls separating two parts of the room, I'll try to trap as many monsters as possible on one side while I pick off the ones on my side (even if I would normally kill those monsters last).

 

2. When entering an open area: Are there any necromancers/reborn mages/dragons? If so, you want to kill those first and use them to block all the melee monsters. Remember, if a monster is diagonal from you, it will move east/west first THEN north/south, so if you are like this:

 

[You][Mage]

[Melee]

 

You should walk one square north of the mage and the meleer will be trapped. It's important that no one runs through the mage because once you step off the square the meleer can walk through the block.

 

3. The next priority is forgotten mages, followed by ghosts/books/skeleton mages. Keep praying mage and blocking meleers north/south in between hits. If you have no armour and are low on food, and there are no dangerous mages left, you can sometimes find a semi-safe spot in the room where only one meleer can attack you (behind a pillar usually).

 

4. Once that's done, you need to assess the styles your team has. Anyone with a HHB should be killing demons (and you could have left the mages for them too). If there are no HHB, surgeboxes work on demons faster than melee, and surgeboxes should also be taking down t9+ forgotten warriors. The rest can be meleed, switching between slash and crush as needed. Use meleers to block other meleers and pray range if there are multiple high leveled rangers in the room.

 

5. After everythings dead (or in between hits) pick up charms/herbs/food/etc. Look around for chests if your team needs cash. If you have a decent amount of food, your priority should be opening the next door ASAP and telling your keyer what's there ("ie, gd->pcres") or getting a key from a dead end and putting it at GGS.

 

Note: at all times you want to be flashing either turmoil or soul split. Flash turmoil BEFORE you hit if you are fighting a mage or have full health. Flash Soul Split WHILE you hit if you are down health and the GD is fairly safe.

 

 

Of course you will sometimes get a deathtrap in a small space, but even then you can hide behind terrain to limit what can attack you while systematically dispatching the most dangerous monsters with the effects of turmoil and the best style. If you just run into a deathtrap construct room and try to fight with no armour....then yes it's going to seem hard. The best way to handle it is to run in, grab chisel/stone, run out and make+imbue the item, run in and repair+charge the construct, then run out and do something else. When it goes all the way around the monsters will be naturally spread out. Barrels, you're typically only spending two seconds in dangerous territory because you push the barrels quickly, so you just need to go in with full health to survive. Fishing rooms are not as bad as people think because you can block almost all the melee attacks with other monsters or by running around to the fishing spot; also, you never need more than 3 cooked fish to do a puzzle, usually 2, so it's not very long of a puzzle.

[/hide]

WOW this response is epic win. thank you for saying so much that needs to be said about GD's. couple points where i disagree though such as turmoil flick. for monos and obelisks i'd agree but in general prayre is too valuable to use on ss flick unless you can do it lossless (i.e. instantaneously basically)

 

also, in some cases it may make sense to hit rangers before mages. if all the mosnters in the room are maging except a few rangers it makes sense to kill the rangers first.

 

Anyways I'm telling you that I think someone who can make a dungeon with random (but responsive/kind people) decently fast is more proffesional than someone who does it with a set team of people.

don't want to be rude:

yeah that's fine, but please recognize that at this point we're arguing about the semantics of "professional" and not really the main point of this thread. based on your description of how you key, i think you can empathize with us wrt unresponsive teammates. that's the huge annoyance in w117/148.

 

___

 

there is room for clearing for mod for extra xp, but i think it's EXTREMELY small. grimy and i worked it out; i forget the exact numbers but for clearing mod to be worth it, you really only can do it on like lvl <20

[SirIzenhime]

"You'd best change your point of view. Stop blaming me, thinking I'm the problem. If you think I'm the problem, then you have to change me. If you realize that you're the problem, then you can change yourself, learn something and grow wiser. Most people want everyone else in the world to change but themselves. Let me tell you, it's easier to change yourself than everyone else."

Oh don't worry, I have enough high level DG friends to never have to DG with people like you again. We don't need to change ourselves because we've already far surpassed people like you. Funny how that works out- you make an effort to do something the best way and you end up better at it than other people.

elitism at its best worst!

Does this really have a place at a public site such as tipit?

 

Anyways I'm telling you that I think someone who can make a dungeon with random (but responsive/kind people) decently fast is more proffesional than someone who does it with a set team of people.

And then suddenly leading skills & also capability to find the golden middle is important!

He's not really being elitist...he's just being Honest

He's gotten to a point of doing dungeons at such a rate, where w117 and 148 are no longer needed. He can just join his clan/friends and dung with them now, maintaining the same average floor time, almost always being less then 30 minutes now (or is it 20 now?).

He isn't excluding you from the group, he's telling you that because he's good enough at it, he no longer needs random people. Anyone else can do the same thing. Get good a "pro" dungeoneering, and you can join the consistent 30 minute floor teams

 

Edit: Quick question since we're on the topic of those awesome rooms with tons of monsters...

Would making entangle runes be at all a Viable option for those small rooms with nothing to hide behind? You could control the meleers even after the mages/rangers have been walked through that way, they would also help control the mercenary rooms since you would only ever need to worry about the rangers then.

[muggiwhplar]

"You'd best change your point of view. Stop blaming me, thinking I'm the problem. If you think I'm the problem, then you have to change me. If you realize that you're the problem, then you can change yourself, learn something and grow wiser. Most people want everyone else in the world to change but themselves. Let me tell you, it's easier to change yourself than everyone else."

Oh don't worry, I have enough high level DG friends to never have to DG with people like you again. We don't need to change ourselves because we've already far surpassed people like you. Funny how that works out- you make an effort to do something the best way and you end up better at it than other people.

 

Lol

 

It's funny cuz he proved my point but still doesn't realize it

[green9090]

"You'd best change your point of view. Stop blaming me, thinking I'm the problem. If you think I'm the problem, then you have to change me. If you realize that you're the problem, then you can change yourself, learn something and grow wiser. Most people want everyone else in the world to change but themselves. Let me tell you, it's easier to change yourself than everyone else."

Oh don't worry, I have enough high level DG friends to never have to DG with people like you again. We don't need to change ourselves because we've already far surpassed people like you. Funny how that works out- you make an effort to do something the best way and you end up better at it than other people.

 

Lol

 

It's funny cuz he proved my point but still doesn't realize it

What's your point? That if I was more flexible I could go back to low level teams and get half the exp?

 

Yeah, sounds like an advantage to me.

[TheAncient]

Edit: Quick question since we're on the topic of those awesome rooms with tons of monsters...

Would making entangle runes be at all a Viable option for those small rooms with nothing to hide behind? You could control the meleers even after the mages/rangers have been walked through that way, they would also help control the mercenary rooms since you would only ever need to worry about the rangers then.

 

i seriously considered this at one point but because:

you lose an attack turn to cast the spell

earth/water/nature take too many inventory spaces

runes are annoying to make

 

it's not worth it

 

eventually i started just trying to use runes that i picked up (minimizing the runemaking time), but even then i never used the spell cause it's annoying and time consuming to use

 

BUT on the other hand, if you manage to pick up souls from the start table or whatever they are nice to use every once in a while on like a lvl 200+ demon or on the boss. (lowers defense ftw). but you do have to recognize when the 2-3 inventory slots are better used for food or other items

[Obtaurian]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious -- can anyone link me to a guide or can someone explain strategies for warped bosses? I'm especially interested in Kal'Ger.

[TheAncient]

Somewhat off-topic, but I'm curious -- can anyone link me to a guide or can someone explain strategies for warped bosses? I'm especially interested in Kal'Ger.

 

idk anything about kalger or gorger but:

hope devourer: make runes, lure behind a wall protrusion, soul split and mage him. may be necessary to make mage pots since he drains your mage.

 

blink: 4 teammates should go to 4 corners of map to raise pillars. look for yellow dot to see where blink is coming from. you can hide from his spec by raising pillars and running behind them or using GS trick.

 

gulega: avoid 4-tentacle attack (obv). pray melee and be pro at switching to pray mage/pray range when you see his attacks. green = range; yellow = mage. possible to do him w/o damage. he's lots of fun. oh also bloodrager specs are nice.

 

dread: lure to the entrance and mage him from the side (safespotted)

[Dr_Vermin]

On the subject of pro-teams - does anyone know how I can join one?

I tried to create and recruit a team on RS forums, but I got no useful responses after a week so I gave up on that method.

I use the 3bo clan atm and can quite easily key a floor under 30 mins, but having a perm team would save on recruitment time.