What is your TRUE Combat Level

[xpx]

It's like an effin circle.

"They should not be able to use extremes in wildy because herblore is not part of the combat level"

"Don't change the combat level it works just fine"

 

Uh, that's more like 2 dots. Not even connected in a line.

 

No extremes and the current combat level sounds just fine.

No extremes because it's not shown to the level > Rework the level > No Extremes ...

It looks like a circle to me and no, it doesnt sound just fine ... wasn't the wildy supposed to be .. dangerous .. or it's supposed to be dangerous for skillers but not for pkers who don't want to skill ? Am I getting it right ?

So, lets not blow the problem out of proportion and keep things simple as it is- keep combat level the same and ban extremes from dangerous pvp combat- nothing fancy, but simple. The untradeable potions are clearly more pvm oriented and as they offer enough worth for the trouble of getting, i don't see anything wrong with them.

[foursideking]

Not necessarily. If they were pvm oriented, then there'd probably be a quest related to them (see elite void, initiate, and salve ammy for details)

[Hajutze]

My memory might be wrong, but extremes were usable in PvP for few days and they were banned after everyone started whining (as usual) so I'd say Jagex didn't made them as "PvM" potions at first ...

[xpx]

My memory might be wrong, but extremes were usable in PvP for few days and they were banned after everyone started whining (as usual) so I'd say Jagex didn't made them as "PvM" potions at first ...

So, regardless of that, what's the problem with the current solution? It keeps wilderness real and doesn't neglect the use of the potions. I don't see the problem here.

[Hajutze]

Real is such a subjective word. Limiting the use of anything combat based removes the wild in wilderness <_<

[xpx]

Real is such a subjective word. Limiting the use of anything combat based removes the wild in wilderness <_<

I wonder why pkers would disagree with you... Are you a pker, and to go even further, do you really understand the effect of untradeable potions in the wilderness? If most people seem to agree that it's a bad idea allowing those potions into the wilderness(people with 99 herblore before the potions ever existed, no less), what is your problem with them? For your information, there are opposite limitations on pvp item specials, so it's fine by me having the wilderness go around another standard.

[NukeMarine]

Real is such a subjective word. Limiting the use of anything combat based removes the wild in wilderness <_<

I wonder why pkers would disagree with you... Are you a pker, and to go even further, do you really understand the effect of untradeable potions in the wilderness? If most people seem to agree that it's a bad idea allowing those potions into the wilderness(people with 99 herblore before the potions ever existed, no less), what is your problem with them? For your information, there are opposite limitations on pvp item specials, so it's fine by me having the wilderness go around another standard.

By pkers, do you mean "some pkers", and by "most people" do you mean "the few people I chatted with"? Using all inclusive terms don't help your point. Now, if you can point to some poll that was performed by Jagex asking the population about the use of extremes/ovl's in the Wilderness and 50% responded negatively then I'd agree with your use of the term. There's a chance you may be right, but Jagex didn't ask for the opinion of the masses or even of pkers. They just removed overloads/extremes within a week and only reluctantly allowed them in safe pvp later.

 

So long as it's coming down to those that think only skills should be used to determine who can fight who in the wild, versus skill and equipment to make that determination, there's not much more to do for this conversation. At that point, it's just opinion on which is best with neither being right or wrong. However, this strong reaction to extremes and overloads helps strengthen my point. If I understand correctly, the main complaint is that overloads add invisible increase to one's combat abilities without affecting the combat level. Heck, even if Herblore were fairly altered to allow it to impact the combat level, many would still complain.

 

So, why is it that armor and weapons do the EXACT SAME THING, and there's no problem? A whip adds like 82 atk and 91 str to a character (57 combat levels) which far outshines the amount of str and atk added via an Overload. Heck, you now have life boosting armor that adds 10 combat levels for that 40 con boost alone. On top of that, every other thread likes to play on the idea that player's perceived value of armor and weapons should be taken into consideration about how these new Chaotic and Life Boosting armor only benefit the rich (yet another complaint against overloads). If you're arguing for one and not the other, you're missing the point. Equipment and items boost combat. Armor and Weapons offer a permanent boost to combat skills when equipped. Food, Potions, Prayers and Summoned offer a temporary boost.

 

Of course, all this would be moot if Jagex just made the Wilderness free for all right? The main purpose of Wilderness levels is to at least create some semblance of chance when you enter. Go higher and watch chances get lower as more people can fight you and soon you can't even teleport away. Problem is, with 1-item weapons becoming so OP, even that chance is going away. There has to be some method to balance that out IF we're on the assumption the Wilderness levels are there for a fair chance at the lowest levels.

[All_Is_Great]

AFAIK, Equipment bonuses and your skill levels are different. So, your way of saying whip adds 82 atk and 91 str is, well, messed up.

Fact is we don't need a complex, over-the-top combat system overhaul, the current system works fine. Can you tell me something wrong with the current system?

People use better gear for the reason that it'll give them upper hand in a fight, giving them better chances to win, etc.

 

And the fact that xpx and I both are able to use extremes, yet don't think banning them is such a bad idea, should tell you something.

 

And just for the record, "no extremes > rework combat > no extremes", that doesn't even make any sense. How do you go from "rework combat" to "no extremes"? At best, it's a linear thing, going from "no extremes > rework combat". But, really, it should just be "no extremes", "keep combat levels the same". Pretty simple.

 

EDIT: Now I'm just starting to believe the reason this topic exists is because you guys are really unhappy because the vote got passed, and are now just nitpicking the tiniest bit of problems to make PKers sound contradictory. :rolleyes:

[NukeMarine]

AFAIK, Equipment bonuses and your skill levels are different. So, your way of saying whip adds 82 atk and 91 str is, well, messed up.

Fact is we don't need a complex, over-the-top combat system overhaul, the current system works fine. Can you tell me something wrong with the current system?

People use better gear for the reason that it'll give them upper hand in a fight, giving them better chances to win, etc.

 

And the fact that xpx and I both are able to use extremes, yet don't think banning them is such a bad idea, should tell you something.

 

And just for the record, "no extremes > rework combat > no extremes", that doesn't even make any sense. How do you go from "rework combat" to "no extremes"? At best, it's a linear thing, going from "no extremes > rework combat". But, really, it should just be "no extremes", "keep combat levels the same". Pretty simple.

 

EDIT: Now I'm just starting to believe the reason this topic exists is because you guys are really unhappy because the vote got passed, and are now just nitpicking the tiniest bit of problems to make PKers sound contradictory. :rolleyes:

The bonuses and skill levels different, but not by much. Melee bonuses are very straight forward. Range bonuses are more difficult as it's the ammo that helps determine damage and the bonuses are for accuracy. Mage is the most complex as the spells (and part of boosts and weapons) that determine damage while bonuses are for accuracy. Defense is the most complicated formula, as armor not only reduces chance of hit but also impacts how your damage is dealt. Once a workable figure is nailed down (which Jagex has at it's finger tips), it's a minor effort to do a correlation.

 

Put it this way: Would you feel fairly certain you can using chaotic rapier and full torva defeat a player that's 140 atk, 140 str, 140 def, and 140 con with ZERO weapons and armor? He's like, 60 combat levels ahead of you, though you should win on the average. Now, let's make that player 200 atk, 200 str, 220 def and 140 con. I'd wager even with 20 sharks between the two of you that you lose 50% of the time. A mental exercise to be sure, but seems in keeping with current combat mechanics.

 

As far as what two players think in regards to extreme, well, that tells me what two players think. Now, I do think pkers probably take priority when it comes to opinion here. They are the ones impacted the most, in which case a poll can help. However, Jagex can and has changed the game and combat mechanics without input also. If they are fair about it, I'm cool with that too.

 

PS: I'm happy for return of free trade and the wilderness (with certain reservation). Please cook your red herrings elsewhere.

[amitoz]

AFAIK, Equipment bonuses and your skill levels are different. So, your way of saying whip adds 82 atk and 91 str is, well, messed up.

Fact is we don't need a complex, over-the-top combat system overhaul, the current system works fine. Can you tell me something wrong with the current system?

People use better gear for the reason that it'll give them upper hand in a fight, giving them better chances to win, etc.

 

And the fact that xpx and I both are able to use extremes, yet don't think banning them is such a bad idea, should tell you something.

 

And just for the record, "no extremes > rework combat > no extremes", that doesn't even make any sense. How do you go from "rework combat" to "no extremes"? At best, it's a linear thing, going from "no extremes > rework combat". But, really, it should just be "no extremes", "keep combat levels the same". Pretty simple.

 

EDIT: Now I'm just starting to believe the reason this topic exists is because you guys are really unhappy because the vote got passed, and are now just nitpicking the tiniest bit of problems to make PKers sound contradictory. :rolleyes:

The bonuses and skill levels different, but not by much. Melee bonuses are very straight forward. Range bonuses are more difficult as it's the ammo that helps determine damage and the bonuses are for accuracy. Mage is the most complex as the spells (and part of boosts and weapons) that determine damage while bonuses are for accuracy. Defense is the most complicated formula, as armor not only reduces chance of hit but also impacts how your damage is dealt. Once a workable figure is nailed down (which Jagex has at it's finger tips), it's a minor effort to do a correlation.

 

Put it this way: Would you feel fairly certain you can using chaotic rapier and full torva defeat a player that's 140 atk, 140 str, 140 def, and 140 con with ZERO weapons and armor? He's like, 60 combat levels ahead of you, though you should win on the average. Now, let's make that player 200 atk, 200 str, 220 def and 140 con. I'd wager even with 20 sharks between the two of you that you lose 50% of the time. A mental exercise to be sure, but seems in keeping with current combat mechanics.

 

As far as what two players think in regards to extreme, well, that tells me what two players think. Now, I do think pkers probably take priority when it comes to opinion here. They are the ones impacted the most, in which case a poll can help. However, Jagex can and has changed the game and combat mechanics without input also. If they are fair about it, I'm cool with that too.

 

PS: I'm happy for return of free trade and the wilderness (with certain reservation). Please cook your red herrings elsewhere.

 

 

As am I.

 

+1

[xpx]

By pkers, do you mean "some pkers", and by "most people" do you mean "the few people I chatted with"? Using all inclusive terms don't help your point. Now, if you can point to some poll that was performed by Jagex asking the population about the use of extremes/ovl's in the Wilderness and 50% responded negatively then I'd agree with your use of the term. There's a chance you may be right, but Jagex didn't ask for the opinion of the masses or even of pkers. They just removed overloads/extremes within a week and only reluctantly allowed them in safe pvp later.

 

So long as it's coming down to those that think only skills should be used to determine who can fight who in the wild, versus skill and equipment to make that determination, there's not much more to do for this conversation. At that point, it's just opinion on which is best with neither being right or wrong. However, this strong reaction to extremes and overloads helps strengthen my point. If I understand correctly, the main complaint is that overloads add invisible increase to one's combat abilities without affecting the combat level. Heck, even if Herblore were fairly altered to allow it to impact the combat level, many would still complain.

 

So, why is it that armor and weapons do the EXACT SAME THING, and there's no problem? A whip adds like 82 atk and 91 str to a character (57 combat levels) which far outshines the amount of str and atk added via an Overload. Heck, you now have life boosting armor that adds 10 combat levels for that 40 con boost alone. On top of that, every other thread likes to play on the idea that player's perceived value of armor and weapons should be taken into consideration about how these new Chaotic and Life Boosting armor only benefit the rich (yet another complaint against overloads). If you're arguing for one and not the other, you're missing the point. Equipment and items boost combat. Armor and Weapons offer a permanent boost to combat skills when equipped. Food, Potions, Prayers and Summoned offer a temporary boost.

 

Of course, all this would be moot if Jagex just made the Wilderness free for all right? The main purpose of Wilderness levels is to at least create some semblance of chance when you enter. Go higher and watch chances get lower as more people can fight you and soon you can't even teleport away. Problem is, with 1-item weapons becoming so OP, even that chance is going away. There has to be some method to balance that out IF we're on the assumption the Wilderness levels are there for a fair chance at the lowest levels.

In most people i mean all the people who complained(and there were alot) and the high level people i have talked to about the subject. Not many real pkers that can access untradeable potions want them to be used in the wilderness.

 

As for your gear comparison, please, tell me, when was the last time you want to the wilderness and lost 1m herblore xp? unless you can say that, your points are worthless. Gear is already coded into combat level in being able to wear armor and weapons, but herblore is in no way related to combat level, and you can't lose the ability(you can lose a whip, but not 1m attack xp). Also, you just seem clueless about low level pking. It exists, and in an entity in it's own. The fact that they have got to make do with the lower levels of wilderness isn't really a problem, and making gear boost combat wouldn't change that either. You are thinking fairness of combat, while not at all considering risk. Risk is a VERY important part of the wilderness.

[NukeMarine]

In most people i mean all the people who complained(and there were alot) and the high level people i have talked to about the subject. Not many real pkers that can access untradeable potions want them to be used in the wilderness.

 

As for your gear comparison, please, tell me, when was the last time you want to the wilderness and lost 1m herblore xp? unless you can say that, your points are worthless. Gear is already coded into combat level in being able to wear armor and weapons, but herblore is in no way related to combat level, and you can't lose the ability(you can lose a whip, but not 1m attack xp). Also, you just seem clueless about low level pking. It exists, and in an entity in it's own. The fact that they have got to make do with the lower levels of wilderness isn't really a problem, and making gear boost combat wouldn't change that either. You are thinking fairness of combat, while not at all considering risk. Risk is a VERY important part of the wilderness.

You've played the game for quite a awhile and to high enough level that such a statement holds weight. Granted, using the term "real pkers" is a loaded term (guilty of using it myself), as it can mean anything you want it to.

 

Now, are you sure you want to compare XP to gear in relation to herblore? Cause seriously, I've covered that so much I think I top posted an addendum about it. It's very easy to allow herblore to affect the combat level in a fair way.

 

On top of that, think long term. Say in two year's time, Jagex decides boost the skills to 120. In addition, the release player made level 100 armor. However, it can only be made by people with 100+ in 4 different skills (non-combat) and it's untradeable. Would you be ok with that? That puts high level armor and weapons in the hands of players that trained non-combat skills an advantage in combat over those that didn't. However, it's fair since they have to 100 str, atk, def, rng or mage to wield these weapons and armor, right? That not other player without (100+ smithing, crafting, mining, firemaking). In fact, only those with 118 in all four skills could have a level 100 plate. Akin to getting level 80 in dng for a great weapon that's reflected by your attack.

 

Personally, I think it'd be unfair. And, it's obvious Jagex will be raising the skill cap, and they will be making more powerful, untradeable weapons in addition to those that require enormous time or gp investment. If you think untradeable weapons and armor will be fairly represented in the Wilderness via the combat level, then that's fair but I disagree with it.

[All_Is_Great]

Why can't a person risk good gear to kill people with lesser gear? What's unfair about that?

 

Also, why do you want herblore to be a combat skill? That makes no sense :???:

[curtis95112]

Another problem with the current combat level system is that it practically closes of the wilderness from mid level mains. You know, the majority of Runescape's population. You either have to create a pure or max to do well in the wilderness. This problem becomes worse with 1-itemers becoming more powerful by the day.

[Squisher_33]

i see you mentioned herb, but didnt mention dung

[xpx]

Why can't a person risk good gear to kill people with lesser gear? What's unfair about that?

 

Also, why do you want herblore to be a combat skill? That makes no sense :???:

Exactly right. Using good gear has the drawback of higher risk, so it is balanced(this applies to why dungeoneering doesn't need to be a combat skill). If two maxed players fought in the wilderness, one with general edge pking ags gear and the other with CR, torva and divine, the better geared pk-er would win an overwhelming amount of time, but it's balanced in that he needs to kill the AGS pker 4 thousand times per one death, which is almost impossible to achieve.

 

As for herblore affecting combat, the general consensus i've seen is that the real problem isn't that it doesn't effect combat, rather that the potions would be too powerful to be used in the wilderness, thus having a negative effect on it as a whole. The game is better with the potions left out of pvp combat that matters(and making herblore a combat skill would do nothing, really).

[Unknown_Warrior]

What I wonder is how Extremes will be integrated with other aspects unfortunately located in the wild. Will KBD slayers (how little there may be) or Chaos Tunnel slayers not be permitted to take extremes because they're forced to briefly spend time in the Wilderness? And if they aren't, how will those leaving said areas under the effects of an extreme? Are they forced to stay in until their potion wears off?

 

And, to be honest, the entire point of not being able to see Herblore's effects is totally [cabbage]. Rings can't be seen worn, so therefore those wearing a Berserker ring are fundamentally cheating as well (if we're going with this "not able to notice warrants ban" ideology).

Furthermore, INVENTORIES SHOULD BE BANNED. As, of course, if I can't see that my opponent has Dragon claws in his inventory, he can whip it out and charge an attack before I have the chance to react on it.

 

Banning extremes is fundamentally flawed. If you want Wilderness your way, then you should take it and everything nasty with it. Skillers have to endure remarks from PKers that the new (or old?) wilderness is good and they have to endure to new risk that comes with it. Why can't that be said in reverse? Why can't skillers force extremes on PK'ers like PK'ers can force PvP risk on skillers? It's nothing more than catering to the crybabies, which is my pet peeve in regards to Jagex.

 

Disclaimer: In this post, skiller denotes person using non-combat skills, not the elitist "I hate combat" variant.

[All_Is_Great]

They'll be capped at super potion levels in the wilderness, so I guess you can still bring them, but not use them. Once you leave you will get reset back to extreme potion level. Vise-versa.

 

Herblore is a skill, a non-combat one at that. Therefore, IMO, it shouldn't be a vital part of PKing. As in, you shouldn't be forced to get 88 herb to start winning fights. That would be fundamentally flawed. Like xpx said, it's more PvM based, not PvP.

 

It was banned shortly after being released, so I DO NOT see a problem with it remained banned. Why all of a sudden all the arguing started from this tiny non-issue is beyond me. And what's this about skillers forcing extremes on PKers? That isn't even part of this "issue". And just so you know, PKers don't FORCE risk upon skillers. AFAIK, there aren't many skilling hotspots in the wilderness, and there won't be with the upcoming re-release. Get over this already. You don't have to go into the wild with your 100m skilling outfit, the risk is not forced upon you.

 

It's such a simple thing, just leave everything as is, and there is no problem. Keep extremes out, and there will be no need to make Herblore a combat skill, and everything is still pretty balanced. What's wrong with that?

[gspbeetle]

Herblore is a skill, a non-combat one at that. Therefore, IMO, it shouldn't be a vital part of PKing. As in, you shouldn't be forced to get 88 herb to start winning fights. That would be fundamentally flawed. Like xpx said, it's more PvM based, not PvP.

 

 

I think people have already counter this argument with dungeoneering, have to make an counter argument to that first.

But anyway overload is just too good, it basically gives immunity to stats drains.

[NukeMarine]

It's my opinion that Jagex's reply to the question was BS. It's easily countered with mini-game, dng, and quest items that you have no idea is being used if in inventory.

 

The answer's here in this thread and elsewhere about these potions being too powerful at least are being honest. However, it does bring up a question-

 

Q1: If Extremes and Overloads were tradeable, would you still consider them too powerful for the wild?

Q2: If you answer no, then do you think any powerful item should be easily obtained via trade and not limited to non-tradeable time/luck/skill based obtaining?

 

See, if Q1 is a yes for you, then you just think an item needs to be revamped whether it was tradeable or not. That's cool. A no to Q1 though offers some problems that can be clarified with the next question. See, a no suggests you think players with high skill levels (and in theory time or quest levels) shouldn't get benefits in the game in relation to combat, especially PvP combat. A yes Q2 means that you want some players to be able to use gp to get the same advantage others would just use time. The problem is that means that in your eyes Jagex shouldn't be awarding players with Chaotics, or anything else that may be release over the months that relates to (most likely) non-combat skills. I completely disagree with that, as I think players that developed all skills can get benefits that those that limit to only certain skills should not get.

 

Basically, Overloads and Extreme was the opening salvo to letting high skill level players (in both combat and non-combat skills) have benefits in combat. This could have been extended to littering the Wilderness with obstacles that skills could overcome (agility, rock blocks, trees, tangle vines, etc). Smithing could have been modified to allow some elite high level armor that can't be traded. Crafting could have mixed with Magic and Smithing to allow enchanted weapons/armor (much like bolts now). Again, that's assuming that the problem you had with Overloads/Extremes was that they were not tradeable.

[xpx]

Isn't it overly clear that my answer to Q1 would be yes? I thought you would have gotten it by now but...uh...

[NukeMarine]

Isn't it overly clear that my answer to Q1 would be yes? I thought you would have gotten it by now but...uh...

I'm sorry, were you the only person in all of runescape with an opinion on overloads? I'm pretty sure this is directed at a wider audience to invoke discussion.

 

In fact, to be fair and remove the snarkiness from my first sentence, it was your reply that prompted me to post the questions. See, you offered a valid reason about overloads which is they are OP whether tradeable or not. This is akin to complaining about certain specials Jagex puts out which makes one weapon far too powerful compared to others in the same combat category. However, that still leads the fact that weapons, potions, creatures, etc will still become more and more powerful as time goes on. A character's combat level will not increase, but her ability to do and withstand damage from others will become more powerful. I personally would like to see such things come from more than just random drops from monsters. I would hate that the cut off of all things powerful end at level 80 armor and weapons.