It's fine the way it is. No need to fix something (again) that isn't broken.

There are some flaws tho, according to your system pures still have lower combat levels due to them not having any armour.

Look at it like this: a lvl 70 pure can have 90 ranged, while a lvl 70 main account has about ~58 att, def and str, with some prayer levels.

Now the main has to bring armour or else his defence level is worth even less against the accuracy of 90 ranged, but if he brings it he increases his own combat levels, resulting in him having to fight even stronger pures.

It's fine the way it is. No need to fix something (again) that isn't broken.

Ok, this has been ponied out twice now, and I'm calling foul. To say it isn't broken assumes: A level 138 using melee utilizing all equipment availble in the game (limited by inventory slots) has better chance against a level 138 ranger and worse chance against a level 138 mage. Likewise, to say it isn't broken assumes: A level 57 with 60 atk, 60 str, 80 range, 80 mage, 10 def, 60 con, 0 prayer has an equal chance against a level 57 with 40 str, 40 atk, 52 rng, 52 mag, 40 def, 40 prayer and 40 con, with each decked out with the best equipment and items they can use.

 

IF the above cases are true, then you're right. Nothing needs to be changed. Of course, under the current system, you can't have a level 138 mage UNLESS you raise atk and str. That alone tells you something is wrong in RS land. That the pure can use whips, ancients and plethora of other high level items also tells you that equal levels does not mean equal combat potential. Take away all the items, then yeah, they might have an equal shot.

 

However, kindly offer up reasons why you think it's not broken. Perhaps I'm wrong, and merely misunderstood people when they talked about op pures or about the combat triangle being broken.

No need to massively over complicate a system that has been in place and worked perfectly fine for years.

It's fine the way it is. No need to fix something (again) that isn't broken.

Ok, this has been ponied out twice now, and I'm calling foul. To say it isn't broken assumes: A level 138 using melee utilizing all equipment availble in the game (limited by inventory slots) has better chance against a level 138 ranger and worse chance against a level 138 mage. Likewise, to say it isn't broken assumes: A level 57 with 60 atk, 60 str, 80 range, 80 mage, 10 def, 60 con, 0 prayer has an equal chance against a level 57 with 40 str, 40 atk, 52 rng, 52 mag, 40 def, 40 prayer and 40 con, with each decked out with the best equipment and items they can use.

 

IF the above cases are true, then you're right. Nothing needs to be changed. Of course, under the current system, you can't have a level 138 mage UNLESS you raise atk and str. That alone tells you something is wrong in RS land. That the pure can use whips, ancients and plethora of other high level items also tells you that equal levels does not mean equal combat potential. Take away all the items, then yeah, they might have an equal shot.

 

However, kindly offer up reasons why you think it's not broken. Perhaps I'm wrong, and merely misunderstood people when they talked about op pures or about the combat triangle being broken.

To say it's broken assumes that combat level absolutely must correctly determine the relative strength of players and monsters with no margin of error whatsoever. Clearly this isn't the case, as we've gone 10 years and the game hasn't imploded yet.

There are some flaws tho, according to your system pures still have lower combat levels due to them not having any armour.

Look at it like this: a lvl 70 pure can have 90 ranged, while a lvl 70 main account has about ~58 att, def and str, with some prayer levels.

Now the main has to bring armour or else his defence level is worth even less against the accuracy of 90 ranged, but if he brings it he increases his own combat levels, resulting in him having to fight even stronger pures.

Perhaps not. I mistated the power of pures. Pures work best in the duel arena where they want you to not use armor or prayer. The combat boost for str/atk of 70 using a whip makes it like having 150 atk/str. That's +100 to combat level plus 20 for his con (120). For a level 50 atk/str using full rune, he's about 95 atk/str in addition to 260 total def. That's about 120 combat level once prayer and hits are added in. Sorry about giving that example. Should have added the caveat about not using armor which does balance things considerably, not to mention prayer. Pures had more power back when armor was limited to adamant and/or rune when rune armor was much, much harder to obtain (pures were god like when mage and range both added individual, not if greater than atk/str). As prayers, armor and weapons advance then getting balanced skills is not a detriment.

 

However, this does not invalidate my humble offer. Consider that the BEST items in the game requiring enourmous investment of time and/or money (divine, chaotics, Nex items, etc.). In the current system, getting these items mean a HUGE boost in potential without any increase in one's combat level. This will become even more apparent when Level 90 and 99 items come into the game. As now it's items that more and more determining one's combat potential, and cost instead of xp being the limiting factor in obtaining that potential then it's useful to take those items into account. Wield full torva and chaotics and divine makes you a much higher combat level than one in full barrows.

You need to throw dungeoneering level in there somewhere.

Since we all know that having a choatic weapon is a serious upgrade in melee abilities.

No need to massively over complicate a system that has been in place and worked perfectly fine for years.

 

I beg to differ. The current level system serves no other purpose than to give you a vague and often outright misleading view of another player's skills (And also as completely arbitrary quest requirements).

 

It has not worked perfectly fine, it has been broken since RSC. We just lived with it. As a result, mid-to-high level mains have not been able to pk freely without facing the near-certainty of making a net loss. Now, the broken combat level system threatens to bar extremes/overloads from the wilderness. This is an understandable but arbitrary ban, and it is uncertain how this will progress as equipment gets better and better.

 

Jagex either needs to fix the combat level system or just make it irrelevant to gameplay. I'd argue that the latter is not an option (What? Make it impossible to pk without maxed stats?).

The current system works very well for two reasons, in my opinion:

 

1. It represents your combat potential rather than offering exact data.

 

2. As a direct result of reason #1, there's a certain element of surprise that comes with combat levels. It would be a little boring to see PKers purposefully avoid attacking other players because they can clearly see when they're outmatched (this already happens to a small extent). You would always go into a fight knowing exactly what your opponent is going to do, and all fights would boil down to pure RNG rather than strategy and surprise.

 

A much simpler system than the one you're proposing would be to just have certain symbols appear next to a player's combat level depending on what "non-combat" items they're using. For example, they'd have a symbol next to their names if they were using chaotic weapons or extremes. However, I don't agree that such a system should be implemented; I'm just pointing out that your idea is unnecessarily complicated.

It's fine the way it is. No need to fix something (again) that isn't broken.

Ok, this has been ponied out twice now, and I'm calling foul. To say it isn't broken assumes: A level 138 using melee utilizing all equipment availble in the game (limited by inventory slots) has better chance against a level 138 ranger and worse chance against a level 138 mage. Likewise, to say it isn't broken assumes: A level 57 with 60 atk, 60 str, 80 range, 80 mage, 10 def, 60 con, 0 prayer has an equal chance against a level 57 with 40 str, 40 atk, 52 rng, 52 mag, 40 def, 40 prayer and 40 con, with each decked out with the best equipment and items they can use.

 

IF the above cases are true, then you're right. Nothing needs to be changed. Of course, under the current system, you can't have a level 138 mage UNLESS you raise atk and str. That alone tells you something is wrong in RS land. That the pure can use whips, ancients and plethora of other high level items also tells you that equal levels does not mean equal combat potential. Take away all the items, then yeah, they might have an equal shot.

 

However, kindly offer up reasons why you think it's not broken. Perhaps I'm wrong, and merely misunderstood people when they talked about op pures or about the combat triangle being broken.

Because:

 

60 atk, 60 str, 80 range, 80 mage, 10 def, 60 con

Is level 56. And:

 

40 str, 40 atk, 52 rng, 52 mag, 40 def, 40 prayer and 40 con

Is level 51

 

A far more realistic build for either of these guys would be something along the lines of:

 

Player 1:

 

60 attack

63 strength

10 defense

62 constitution

82 mage

82 range

1 prayer

 

Player 2:

 

46 attack

50 strength

40 defense

46 constitution

64 mage

64 range

43 prayer

 

Both those accounts are level 57, and within one level of anything in leveling up.

 

Then, you must factor in playing ability. Player 1 could have the advantage in a DM, but only if he knew what he was doing. Magic is vastly overpowered in PVP, and Player 1 has the magic level to somewhat utilize this. That being said, if it came to straight DPS from one player against another. Player 2 would actually have the higher DPS in both Range and Mage. 64 range is enough to utilize the rune crossbow, and since we are using max gear, that means Dragonstone (e) bolts. Now you can easily toss on an antifire shield to negate the bolt spec. There is something you are missing though.

 

Player 2 can pray. This means ~40% off of any DPS that Player 1 does. Not only this, but the added soak from rune armor compared to black armor will further knock off DPS from Player 1.

 

Now, I realize you tried to intentionally build Player 2 to be the weaker account, and you built Player 1 to be very strong against people like Player 2 especially. Trying to weight the results with one poor example does not show anything.

 

For example, I can come up with an account that will very easily crush Player 1. We will call him Player 3.

 

Player 3 only has 4 stats. They are:

 

83 Defense

76 Hitpoints

43 Prayer

99 Summoning

 

He can easily crush Player 1.

 

Now, I won't make up any other specilized cases that deliberately weight the fight in the favor of one account.

 

When people say the combat triangle is "broken" it more refers to PVM. Have you noticed all the bosses in Runescape? How many of them do you do anything but melee? I will tell you the answer. It's 2. Possibly 3, if you don't have a divine. They are, Kree'ara, Nex, and possibly Zilyana. You have to range Kree. You just can't melee her, and mage just splashes. For Nex, teams use a mixture of range and melee, ranging for some phases, meleeing for the Blood Phase and minions. For Zilyana, one of the tactics is to range her, and constantly run around the room with her following you so you she doesn't actually hit you with her spec. Or you can melee her with a Divine+CLS.

 

I didn't even include TD's in this list because they have become more like high level players version of abyssal demons. You camp there, kill some, restock, kill more, restock.

 

 

In PVP however, things are different. Mage is the dominant class if you have maxed stats and maxed gear. But again, using only mage is not the way to go. You must know how to switch, and hybrid. It is easiest to get a KO with melee, due to Korasi's sword. But a pure mage will most likely be able to keep someone with a Ksword away from him, not to mention have higher average defense against the Ksword spec. To PVP effectively at high levels, you have to use at least 2 styles of combat, and using all 3 helps.

 

 

Also, when people say the combat triangle is "broken" it does not mean that the system for determining combat level is broken.

 

The idea is not to have combat level show that a person is absolutely identical to you in every ability. This would be kind of pointless. The entire reason that people actively PVP is because they want to show that their setup or character build is superior to another players.

 

Also, in response to your other post, If someone is wearing full Torva and a Divine in the wild, they must be crazy. Not only this, but it will be painfully obvious that they are wearing full torva and a divine since it's kind of covering their entire avatar. You don't need combat level to tell that someone has better gear then you, you can see that with your eyes. It's really obvious.

They should just do away with combat level and just put your total level above your head. Anyone can attack anyone in the wild its all fair game.

 

 

Dont want to die? stay below the ditch.

 

 

No [kitty]'s allowed.

They should just do away with combat level and just put your total level above your head. Anyone can attack anyone in the wild its all fair game.

 

 

Dont want to die? stay below the ditch.

 

 

No [kitty]'s allowed.

 

 

 

This would kill skillers.

I'd say keep the combat levels, or maybe ditch it altogether....

 

 

However a good update would be being able to see other peoples total level at any point.. This would give maybe a better view of how strong a player in reality is!

All skills that affect combat should be counted. Atk, str, def, con, pray, summ, magic, range, and herb

All skills that affect combat should be counted. Atk, str, def, con, pray, summ, magic, range, and herb

Problem with herblore is that it's validity comes only at very high levels..

 

 

someone with 80 herblore will have 80 extra "combat" levels - however he isn't any stronger than someone with "1" herblore.

I have a suggestion.

 

Implement a combat level of the kind suggested by the OP, you know, a (nearly) completely accurate measure of combat ability. Show players their own combat levels but hide it from others. Only tell people whether they can or cannot attack other players. Since we'd be keeping some kind of restriction on who can attack whom, players of all levels will be able to pk AND we can keep the element of surprise.

All skills that affect combat should be counted. Atk, str, def, con, pray, summ, magic, range, and herb

Problem with herblore is that it's validity comes only at very high levels..

someone with 80 herblore will have 80 extra "combat" levels - however he isn't any stronger than someone with "1" herblore.

Now why would you start adding from level 1 ? Add X levels when they reach 88 (1 level would not be appropriate) but no combat level increase before that.

I'd say it could work, but only if your combat level would get recalculated every time your inv/gear/levels change. And food should be excluded, or your combat level would change every time you eat something and you would be able to tell when someone is nearly out of food

So, basically your offensive and defensive abilities. Not herblore level but potions in inventory would be counted, not only magic level but also the spells youre able to cast with the runes you have, melee levels + potential att/str bonuses, etc.

 

It would get really complicated, but if jagexwould design it right it would make fights more even. Based on actual ability of the equipment, inventory and skills you have, you could find an opponent with the same combat rating and have a fight that actually has to be won by the player's skill.

 

The system as we have it now isnt broken though, either come with a really good new system or just leave it as it is.

Way too complicated.

 

Also easily abusable: Losing a fight? unequip/drop everything and your combat lvl will drop and your opponent won't be able to attack you.

Way too complicated.

 

Also easily abusable: Losing a fight? unequip/drop everything and your combat lvl will drop and your opponent won't be able to attack you.

Easily fixable - time gap - the level is recalculated few minutes after you change your equipment so even if you drop everything your opponent has the time to finish you off .. easily considering your lack of equipment.

Way too complicated.

 

Also easily abusable: Losing a fight? unequip/drop everything and your combat lvl will drop and your opponent won't be able to attack you.

 

Make it so your combat level doesn't change while in combat.

You can boost +6 with spicy stew to make extreme attack at 82 herblore... Making herblore a combat lvl boosting skill at 88 would mean serious pkers would go out of their way to not train herblore past a certain lvl where they can boost to make them but not reach the lvl where it would affect their combat lvl.

 

Having the items you carry influence your combat lvl means cluers or abyss RCers would try to go in the wild naked in the hopes that only lower lvls would have the possibility to attack them .

First off, thanks for the detailed post. I'm going to trim it, but I did read it.

However, kindly offer up reasons why you think it's not broken. Perhaps I'm wrong, and merely misunderstood people when they talked about op pures or about the combat triangle being broken.

Because: *snip*

Wasn't going for detailed numbers so those were rough off the cuff. Plus, you'll see above I realized that even my example with the pure doesn't give the pure an advantage unless it's a dm w/o armor or something. Plus, protect prayers are still op for the level one can get them, but that's another thread. Great points though so thanks.

 

Now, I won't make up any other specilized cases that deliberately weight the fight in the favor of one account.

 

When people say the combat triangle is "broken" it more refers to PVM. Have you noticed all the bosses in Runescape? How many of them do you do anything but melee? I will tell you the answer. It's 2. Possibly 3, if you don't have a divine. They are, Kree'ara, Nex, and possibly Zilyana. You have to range Kree. You just can't melee her, and mage just splashes. For Nex, teams use a mixture of range and melee, ranging for some phases, meleeing for the Blood Phase and minions. For Zilyana, one of the tactics is to range her, and constantly run around the room with her following you so you she doesn't actually hit you with her spec. Or you can melee her with a Divine+CLS.

I'll be honest, I hear about the triangle more with PvP. For PvM, bosses aside, I guess one could say Jagex needs to introduce a way for all armor to degrade over time when taking hits. That introduces a training cost that foods are creating keeping it on par with costs involved with range and mage. Again though, PvM may be something for another thread as your combat level is irrelevant when it comes to monsters for the most part.

 

Also, when people say the combat triangle is "broken" it does not mean that the system for determining combat level is broken.

Not all, but I wouldn't say none either. Just from the poll, most would prefer skills to determine potential numbers, which to be fair reflects your point.

 

The idea is not to have combat level show that a person is absolutely identical to you in every ability. This would be kind of pointless. The entire reason that people actively PVP is because they want to show that their setup or character build is superior to another players.

 

Also, in response to your other post, If someone is wearing full Torva and a Divine in the wild, they must be crazy. Not only this, but it will be painfully obvious that they are wearing full torva and a divine since it's kind of covering their entire avatar. You don't need combat level to tell that someone has better gear then you, you can see that with your eyes. It's really obvious.

When the wild comes back, there'll be more than just issues with combat levels. It'll be problems with what can and cannot be used with PvP, in addition to how untradeables that greatly impact combat will work. You say someone wearing full Torva and a Divine is crazy, but what if they could have the equivalent in untradeable, regainable armor via a quest or skill? It's only crazy because of the cost attached to the items, but doesn't detract from the fact that these things do add combat ability (only apparent when worn though).

 

Now, it's not about combat level, cause really you hit the nail on the head. Now it's about guys with all 99's and who has the best gear. If you think about, perhaps they'll love the idea that they can carry all this stuff which puts them at a level outside being attacked by a guy with 99's just 1-iteming. A level 138 with decked out gear could be a 380 (pulling number out my rear), while the other 138 with dragon claws is only a 190. At least then, the decked out guy is approached by another equally decked out guy (ie risking similar amounts). Kind of on approach from the opposite angle, but valid I think.

 

Besides, we've got our level 80 armor and weapons in part, soon there'll be 85's, then 90's, then 93's, then 96's then Jagex will raise the skill cap where maybe is about skill level again. These higher level items will be impacting combat, but only for a select few that choose to use them. Something like the above might encourage more players to risk them in combat, so long as it's a reasonable risk with some certainty of reward.

 

Once again though, thanks for the reply. You point about pures and specific orders did help me narrow in on the idea that really we're talking about end game items for guys already maxed out in skills.

They could just make it so if you hover the mouse over a character, all their combat skill levels are shown, and ditch the whole idea of a 'combat level'.

 

*Shrug*

You can boost +6 with spicy stew to make extreme attack at 82 herblore... Making herblore a combat lvl boosting skill at 88 would mean serious pkers would go out of their way to not train herblore past a certain lvl where they can boost to make them but not reach the lvl where it would affect their combat lvl.

 

Having the items you carry influence your combat lvl means cluers or abyss RCers would try to go in the wild naked in the hopes that only lower lvls would have the possibility to attack them .

 

Herblore directly influencing combat level would not be a good idea. Instead, the combat level should depend on whether the player has the potions in his inventory.

 

And about your second point, isn't that the point? only (relatively) evenly matched people get to fight each other in low wilderness. If Jagex wants risk, they can just move it a few levels deeper into the wilderness.