Dracae Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 in a month prices will be stable on all but the most extreme items (partyhats, crackers, half wines, torva/pernix/virtus, elysian/divine) In a month sharks just about all the gathered items will be stable.. at incredibly low prices.. making RS very one sided... easier buyable production skils, useless gatherer skills.Unless Jagex can actually do what they promised, take care of the bots.. the game will suffer a lot.low price is their true price. fishing and woodcutting are hardly labor intensive, and hence earn low wages. wow.. sorry, but I just have to ask... are you that dense.. or just pretending? We all know, except you it seems, that the only reason prices on the likes of sharks and ess are now plummeting is BOTS, a price caused by cheating can never be the true price.Unless you consider botting a legitimate part of playing Runescape you really should rethink this.. As far as labour intensity.. Jagex has balanced this by several mechanisms, like the time it takes to gain one item and the length of the bank runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Of course you wouldn't complain. You don't use these methods to live on. I, and many others, have to spend hours and hours fishing to somehow accumulate money. Just because you can be nice and happy having cheap sharks does NOT make it right.let's get this straight. you don't have to fish to make money. you can go do other things that don't suck for money. stop acting helpless to justify why you like doing easy things (yes, fishing is easy, it's like 60 actions per hour). Yep, I agree with you. Skillers often feel the harsh end of the stick, God knows why, it's not like they contribute less to the game or are a minority. So I'm often confused as to why Jagex just ignore this huge group of players in favour of pleasing the 'herp derp I hit something with a metal stick' crowd.yes, they contribute less. fishing contributes less effort than soloing dagannoth kings - not only is it risk free, it takes about one fiftieth the effort. this is runescape, not america - you actually can be anything you want to be. you aren't forced to fish. and being stubborn isn't a good reason either. This is RUnescape indeed, a game with 25 skills, all made by Jagex to be part of the game.. YES part of the game, so made to be PLAYED.. If this was not the case Jagex could have just added stores to sell these goods, leaving gathering out altogether. You may consider one skill inferior to an other, but that just shows how limited your way of thinking is. If you were in charge Runescape would basically just be a multiplayer shooter game.. earn money killing , spend it to increase your gear.. There are enough games like this..I can even go as far as to say the only true runescape players are people who do every part of the game.. since all these parts ARE Runescape.A total player, not just a skiller, just a pker, just a bosshunter.. etc .But I won't , Runescape is also the game of endless opportunities, which means it can and should be enjoyed by everyone in every LEGAL, NON CHEATING way possible.That includes gatherers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blyaunte Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 But you know what my kids learned from all of this? Don't come crying to me when they [bleep] up. End of story.if that's the kind of empathy you show your own flesh and blood, i wouldn't be so condescending towards those who don't empathize with complete strangers ;) Your empathy for your fellow player is remarkable. Will you be my friend, pl0x? :lol:THAT is why I want you as a friend! :) :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racheya Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Of course you wouldn't complain. You don't use these methods to live on. I, and many others, have to spend hours and hours fishing to somehow accumulate money. Just because you can be nice and happy having cheap sharks does NOT make it right.let's get this straight. you don't have to fish to make money. you can go do other things that don't suck for money. stop acting helpless to justify why you like doing easy things (yes, fishing is easy, it's like 60 actions per hour). Yep, I agree with you. Skillers often feel the harsh end of the stick, God knows why, it's not like they contribute less to the game or are a minority. So I'm often confused as to why Jagex just ignore this huge group of players in favour of pleasing the 'herp derp I hit something with a metal stick' crowd.yes, they contribute less. fishing contributes less effort than soloing dagannoth kings - not only is it risk free, it takes about one fiftieth the effort. this is runescape, not america - you actually can be anything you want to be. you aren't forced to fish. and being stubborn isn't a good reason either. This is RUnescape indeed, a game with 25 skills, all made by Jagex to be part of the game.. YES part of the game, so made to be PLAYED.. If this was not the case Jagex could have just added stores to sell these goods, leaving gathering out altogether. You may consider one skill inferior to an other, but that just shows how limited your way of thinking is. If you were in charge Runescape would basically just be a multiplayer shooter game.. earn money killing , spend it to increase your gear.. There are enough games like this..I can even go as far as to say the only true runescape players are people who do every part of the game.. since all these parts ARE Runescape.A total player, not just a skiller, just a pker, just a bosshunter.. etc .But I won't , Runescape is also the game of endless opportunities, which means it can and should be enjoyed by everyone in every LEGAL, NON CHEATING way possible.That includes gatherers!Hear hear. To everyone who quoted me... THIS. I often consider myself a 'skiller' because I often take their stance on many issues and attacks by people who don't like skillers when, in fact, I prefer a much more balanced game. If you looked at my skills you'd see that I spread them out, I do what skill I want to do when I want to do it and that is the way the game should be played. Jagex did, indeed, create 25 skills. Yes, some might be more useful or profitable than others but it is nobody's place to say what skills are better than others, unless it is just their own opinion which, sadly, often doesn't happen. Opinion isn't fact. I edit for the [Tip.It Times]. I rarely write in [My Blog]. I am an [Ex-Moderator]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerendil Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 VERY good article Nightshade (ts's irc name, im a member of his clan, Tal shiar alliance) really explains all my opinions on ft. I voted no because i was happy with the old rs. SURE there was a problem or two with old system, perhaps ge limits could be upped, but i dont think bringing back the bots and rwt fixes anything.. Basically, jagex no longer cares about bots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladewing Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 [hide]in a month prices will be stable on all but the most extreme items (partyhats, crackers, half wines, torva/pernix/virtus, elysian/divine) In a month sharks just about all the gathered items will be stable.. at incredibly low prices.. making RS very one sided... easier buyable production skils, useless gatherer skills.Unless Jagex can actually do what they promised, take care of the bots.. the game will suffer a lot.low price is their true price. fishing and woodcutting are hardly labor intensive, and hence earn low wages.[/hide] wow.. sorry, but I just have to ask... are you that dense.. or just pretending? We all know, except you it seems, that the only reason prices on the likes of sharks and ess are now plummeting is BOTS, a price caused by cheating can never be the true price.Unless you consider botting a legitimate part of playing Runescape you really should rethink this.. As far as labour intensity.. Jagex has balanced this by several mechanisms, like the time it takes to gain one item and the length of the bank runs.i never said that anything about botting, especially never that i consider it legitimate. i said that the true price is a low price. please read nex time thx. also if you think the labor of fishing is balanced with the labor of killing tormented demons or nex then you my friend are horribly wrong. [hide]Of course you wouldn't complain. You don't use these methods to live on. I, and many others, have to spend hours and hours fishing to somehow accumulate money. Just because you can be nice and happy having cheap sharks does NOT make it right.let's get this straight. you don't have to fish to make money. you can go do other things that don't suck for money. stop acting helpless to justify why you like doing easy things (yes, fishing is easy, it's like 60 actions per hour). Yep, I agree with you. Skillers often feel the harsh end of the stick, God knows why, it's not like they contribute less to the game or are a minority. So I'm often confused as to why Jagex just ignore this huge group of players in favour of pleasing the 'herp derp I hit something with a metal stick' crowd.yes, they contribute less. fishing contributes less effort than soloing dagannoth kings - not only is it risk free, it takes about one fiftieth the effort. this is runescape, not america - you actually can be anything you want to be. you aren't forced to fish. and being stubborn isn't a good reason either.[/hide] This is RUnescape indeed, a game with 25 skills, all made by Jagex to be part of the game.. YES part of the game, so made to be PLAYED.. If this was not the case Jagex could have just added stores to sell these goods, leaving gathering out altogether. You may consider one skill inferior to an other, but that just shows how limited your way of thinking is. If you were in charge Runescape would basically just be a multiplayer shooter game.. earn money killing , spend it to increase your gear.. There are enough games like this..I can even go as far as to say the only true runescape players are people who do every part of the game.. since all these parts ARE Runescape.A total player, not just a skiller, just a pker, just a bosshunter.. etc .But I won't , Runescape is also the game of endless opportunities, which means it can and should be enjoyed by everyone in every LEGAL, NON CHEATING way possible.That includes gatherers!obviously they are all meant to be played, which is why i am horribly confused why "skillers" continually complain about how they can't do anything but gathering. by the way i don't see how you think it is more intrinsic to the game or more honorable to gather and then trade for gear than to kill bosses for gear and then grade for materials. [hide]Of course you wouldn't complain. You don't use these methods to live on. I, and many others, have to spend hours and hours fishing to somehow accumulate money. Just because you can be nice and happy having cheap sharks does NOT make it right.let's get this straight. you don't have to fish to make money. you can go do other things that don't suck for money. stop acting helpless to justify why you like doing easy things (yes, fishing is easy, it's like 60 actions per hour). Yep, I agree with you. Skillers often feel the harsh end of the stick, God knows why, it's not like they contribute less to the game or are a minority. So I'm often confused as to why Jagex just ignore this huge group of players in favour of pleasing the 'herp derp I hit something with a metal stick' crowd.yes, they contribute less. fishing contributes less effort than soloing dagannoth kings - not only is it risk free, it takes about one fiftieth the effort. this is runescape, not america - you actually can be anything you want to be. you aren't forced to fish. and being stubborn isn't a good reason either. This is RUnescape indeed, a game with 25 skills, all made by Jagex to be part of the game.. YES part of the game, so made to be PLAYED.. If this was not the case Jagex could have just added stores to sell these goods, leaving gathering out altogether. You may consider one skill inferior to an other, but that just shows how limited your way of thinking is. If you were in charge Runescape would basically just be a multiplayer shooter game.. earn money killing , spend it to increase your gear.. There are enough games like this..I can even go as far as to say the only true runescape players are people who do every part of the game.. since all these parts ARE Runescape.A total player, not just a skiller, just a pker, just a bosshunter.. etc .But I won't , Runescape is also the game of endless opportunities, which means it can and should be enjoyed by everyone in every LEGAL, NON CHEATING way possible.That includes gatherers![/hide]Hear hear. To everyone who quoted me... THIS. I often consider myself a 'skiller' because I often take their stance on many issues and attacks by people who don't like skillers when, in fact, I prefer a much more balanced game. If you looked at my skills you'd see that I spread them out, I do what skill I want to do when I want to do it and that is the way the game should be played. Jagex did, indeed, create 25 skills. Yes, some might be more useful or profitable than others but it is nobody's place to say what skills are better than others, unless it is just their own opinion which, sadly, often doesn't happen. Opinion isn't fact.i never said anything about skills being better than others, please stop putting words in my mouth. here are some facts which you are trying to construe as opinions: fishing is very easyfishing is very easily bottedfishing takes little attentionfishing has little to no risks killing tormented demons is (comparatively) difficultkilling tormented demons is rarely bottedkilling tormented demons takes a lot of attentionkilling tormented demons has moderate risks anyone who is fishing can pack up and go to another skillset like combat, slayer or dungeoneering at ANY TIMEno one who is fishing is forced to fish to earn money through fishing -- here are some opinions you are construing as facts: - gathering skills should be more profitable- i have to use gathering skills "to live" in runescape (lol)I, and many others, have to spend hours and hours fishing to somehow accumulate money.- people who refuse to play certain parts of the game (skillers) should be allowed all the benefits of playing those neglected parts of the game without the effort of actually playing them- jagex ignores skillers- people who kill monsters are stupid (ad hominems don't look well on you) How to Chin Nechyraels for fast XP and profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 All this quoting and requoting is geting complicated, so I took most of it out.. scroll up to read it. Below you see quotes by 'bladewing' and my reactions. --------------------------------bladewing------------------------------------------------------------------------i never said that anything about botting, especially never that i consider it legitimate. i said that the true price is a low price. please read nex time thx. also if you think the labor of fishing is balanced with the labor of killing tormented demons or nex then you my friend are horribly wrong.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lower prices of these goods ARE caused by bots, not by normal supply and demand or by legitimate game-play, so you claiming these lower prices are the true prices automaticaly means one of two things: --you appreciate the influence of bots or you really do not know what you are talking about. -------------------------------bladewing--------------------------------------------------------------------------let's get this straight. you don't have to fish to make money. you can go do other things that don't suck for money. stop acting helpless to justify why you like doing easy things (yes, fishing is easy, it's like 60 actions per hour).--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You said this before... and you are totally correct, no one has to do any part of the game.. but how does this have any baring on this discussion? How does having or not having to do a skill make it that --illegal activities should be allowed to make any skill less profitable then it would be if the game were honestly played?Explain that to me... please.. ---------------------------------bladewing--------------------------------------------------------------------------obviously they are all meant to be played, which is why i am horribly confused why "skillers" continually complain about how they can't do anything but gathering. by the way i don't see how you think it is more intrinsic to the game or more honorable to gather and then trade for gear than to kill bosses for gear and then grade for materials.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Runescape has 25 skills, over a dozen mini-games, activities, 100s of quests.. a full map and much more, all this IS Runescape. Jagex works hard, one assumes, to make all this worth playing and rewarding, --and they should or take the parts they consider useless out. You claim the current devaluation of parts of the game by cheaters is not a problem because there is other parts that one can play instead.. how --does that make sense? That would mean them originally taking away W/FT was totally ok since you could do boss hunting.. pvp.. or fishing instead. Is that what you are saying? You claim this is what we(?) are saying: - gathering skills should be more profitable -> No, they should be as profitable as they would be in a game without all these bots.- i have to use gathering skills "to live" in runescape (lol) -> no, I do every part of the game and make money out of just about all if I so choose. - people who refuse to play certain parts of the game (skillers) should be allowed all the benefits of playing those neglected parts of the game without the effort of actually playing them -> Ehm.. benefits without actualy playing? Did you read anything I said? A game is meant to be played, every xp and every gp I have on my account I earned by playing.. It seems to me you really like the return of W/FT and do not like any criticism on this decision.. Not sure but that is the vibe you give up. I myself like w/ft and always have, but I do not like the downsides. -- To me it is about balance, upsides V downsides should decide what happens. I still hope Jagex can make it so the downsides will loose a lot of there impact, as in.. they can take out a lot of the cheating, -- botting and rwt increase made possible by the return of W/FT. Making one side of the game better should not make an other side a lot worst.. specially if this is due to cheating. I understand this includes pk-ing, skills should not make pk-ing impossible.. but.. that did not happen did it.. it was cheating that made Jagex take away W/FT ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uath13 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Frankly I've had to all but turn off my chats since free trade came out. I log in & constantly get hit with message after message like "Scammers stole my stuff can you help?" & " Can someone give me 100k , I got hacked". What a freakin pain. I feel like beating my head against the wall :wall: after trying to warn people about stuff like this yet they still voted for it. The bots are back in force now too. I actually saw a flax field get picked clean by them the other day. :???: It's a good thing most bots can't survive where I skill or I'd be highly miffed at the extra competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 So you are telling me that woodcutting with no risk whatsoever to the user, should be competitive to boss hunting/high stakes pking (as in 20m+ kills)/staking (1m-100b and anywhere in between)/merching? Face it, skilling is for chumps. You are safe, and secure in what you do and that is why you will never get anywhere in runescape. Its not a broken system it is working as intended. NO, I do not think woodcutting should be as profitable as boss-hunting, or what ever else comparison you want to make. Obviously each skill has its own set of rewards. What I am saying is: cheating, botting, rwt, etc.. should not make profits in any skill go up or down. " Face it, skilling is for chumps. You are safe, and secure in what you do and that is why you will never get anywhere in runescape. " That is rude, judgemental, generalising, trolling and plain wrong. Skilling is A ( one ) part of the game. ( period ) And getting anywhere .. wel, that is defined by personal goals.. if you want to be a level 3 with 99 slayer.. and make it happen.. then you are successful.. just like you would be if you want to be a a pure who wins 9 out of 10 fights and make that happen. Also, risk v reward does not determine all in the game. It applies to combat.. but if you want a game that is only about combat.. go play a FPS..Time invested, patience, concentration, social skills, understanding of maths and English, etc etc all also determine ones 'success' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladewing Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Lower prices of these goods ARE caused by bots, not by normal supply and demand or by legitimate game-play, so you claiming these lower prices are the true prices automaticaly means one of two things: --you appreciate the influence of bots or you really do not know what you are talking about.nice try at discrediting me by saying i approve of bots. here's why fishing would still be comparatively crappy money without the influence of bots: there are two things you can do in runescape - fishing and killing monsters. fishing takes 60 actions per hour, and killing monsters takes 6000. at the start of this exercise, both fishing and monster hunting make 1 million gp per hour. if you were a monster hunter, what incentive would there be for you to kill monsters instead of fishing? you risk more, work harder, and get paid the same. so you switch over to fishing. this increases the supply of fish and the demand for monster drops, and decreases the supply of monster drops and demand for fish. this pushes fishing wages down and monster hunting wages up. at what price the equilibrium will settle is uncertain from the given assumptions, but fishing will always be lower wage than more difficult options. You said this before... and you are totally correct, no one has to do any part of the game.. but how does this have any baring on this discussion? How does having or not having to do a skill make it that --illegal activities should be allowed to make any skill less profitable then it would be if the game were honestly played?Explain that to me... please...it has bearing (that's how you spell it by the way) on the conversation because purported skillers claim to be helpless to adapt to current markets. bots are here, whether you like it or not, and you must adapt, and no amount of complaining is going to change that the bots are here. i like how you keep trying to twist what i'm saying into "LOL IM BLADEWING I SUPPORT BOTS BOTS R GOOD SKILLERS R DUM" Runescape has 25 skills, over a dozen mini-games, activities, 100s of quests.. a full map and much more, all this IS Runescape. Jagex works hard, one assumes, to make all this worth playing and rewarding, --and they should or take the parts they consider useless out. You claim the current devaluation of parts of the game by cheaters is not a problem because there is other parts that one can play instead.. how --does that make sense? That would mean them originally taking away W/FT was totally ok since you could do boss hunting.. pvp.. or fishing instead. Is that what you are saying? i never said that the devaluation of parts of the game isn't a problem. please stop putting words in my mouth. i am discrediting the notion that one is a fisher for money and cannot help that and is 100% a victim of the bots. You claim this is what we(?) are saying: - gathering skills should be more profitable -> No, they should be as profitable as they would be in a game without all these bots.- i have to use gathering skills "to live" in runescape (lol) -> no, I do every part of the game and make money out of just about all if I so choose. - people who refuse to play certain parts of the game (skillers) should be allowed all the benefits of playing those neglected parts of the game without the effort of actually playing them -> Ehm.. benefits without actualy playing? Did you read anything I said? A game is meant to be played, every xp and every gp I have on my account I earned by playing..i am saying that those are OPINIONS being portrayed by posters as FACT. would you read at least one of my posts instead of copypasting and distorting it? It seems to me you really like the return of W/FT and do not like any criticism on this decision.. Not sure but that is the vibe you give up. I myself like w/ft and always have, but I do not like the downsides. -- To me it is about balance, upsides V downsides should decide what happens. I still hope Jagex can make it so the downsides will loose a lot of there impact, as in.. they can take out a lot of the cheating, -- botting and rwt increase made possible by the return of W/FT. Making one side of the game better should not make an other side a lot worst.. specially if this is due to cheating. I understand this includes pk-ing, skills should not make pk-ing impossible.. but.. that did not happen did it.. it was cheating that made Jagex take away W/FT ...you get that vibe because after every sentence i write you add in your own "and bladewing likes bots". my posts are not about free trade or wilderness, they are about skillers playing the victim and refusing to adapt to today's ruenscape - runescape with free trade and wilderness. i encourage you to reread my posts :???: How to Chin Nechyraels for fast XP and profit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Squab Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Well Bladewing, there's one thing in that post that I think is the real thing the skillers have a problem with: "bots are here, whether you like it or not, and you must adapt" They evidently DO NOT want to adapt, they want skilling to be more profitable, which would happen in a RS sans bots. Fact. The question does remain on how much more profitable it is. Also, yes, boss hunting contrasted with skilling, most risks and it's harder, but your missing another factor: fun. In my experience, it seems that boring, mindless grinding without bots is fairly profitable, because people will pay a good amount of money to NOT need to do a boring, mindless grind. In fact, that's like, half the reason bots exist right there.... To Dracae: "Also, risk v reward does not determine all in the game. It applies to combat.. but if you want a game that is only about combat.. go play a FPS..Time invested, patience, concentration, social skills, understanding of maths and English, etc etc all also determine ones 'success'" Tell me. When skilling, how useful is...time invested, ok, everything takes time. Patience, skilling takes time, doing things that take time require patience. Concentration? I'm sorry, when people skill they often try to find something else to occupy them so they DON'T have to concentrate. Social skills, if you count talking while fishing to ignore how grindy it is, sure... Understanding of math....um, be able to calculate how much your 2346 fish are at 643 each? Wait, the GE can do that for you.... Or, you know, a calculator. Not to mention how most skills are, in all honesty, mostly useless. I'll just stop here before I go into a huge tangent on how, in all honesty, many skills are mostly useless. I read a good quote though, something about skills will always be bad until cutting maples is more then just clicking a tree and waiting for your guy to chop it, repeat until full, bank. But, I guess both of you probably understand that, the real difference is the skillers, like Dracae, are saying "this isn't fair, life shouldn't be like this, skilling should be more useful/profitable" whereas Bladewing seems to be saying "deal with it," which, incidentally, does not translate into him thinking/saying "this IS fair, life SHOULD be like this." Squab unleashes Megiddo! Completed all quests and hard diaries. 75+ Skiller. (At one point.) 2000+ total. 99 Magic.[spoiler=The rest of my sig. You know you wanna see it.]my difinition of noob is i dont like u, either u are better then me or u are worst them meBuying spins make you a bad person...don't do it. It's like buying nukes for North Korea.Well if it bothers you that the game is more fun now, then you can go cry in a corner. :shame:your article was the equivalent of a circumcized porcupineThe only thing wrong with it is the lack of a percentage for when you need to stroke it. Poignant Purple to Lokie's Ravishing Red and Alg's Brilliant Blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uath13 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 @Allah: My article last month was not about ranting against the coming of Free Trade, but more using it as an argument to explain why the community was in decline... Changes to the game that have such a huge impact can merit a response from each and every one of our (very diverse) writing staff... We often have different opinions, and yet sometimes we don't... In this case it happens to be because we all understand what the effects of these changes might mean... You're welcome to skip any articles that you may think are ranting about all the bad stuff that's happening... I for one tend to mix my articles up a bit (I do my annual economic thing at Haloween), but more often then not you're going to want to write about what has happened recently, or what will happen in the near future... For example: I've written my articles about botting and/or account sharing in the past, and they were well liked by most people... I do not feel the need to write yet another article about it again, because I said what I needed to say and it is not my job to make people listen, understand and eventually change their opinion... I write purely because I like to do it, because people like to read it, and because I (apparently) have soemthing to say... Should I still make someone wiser with my articles than thats just bonus points... My next article's subject I have not yet determined, but seeing as we've had plenty of good writers with our latest recruitment drive I'll not need to write it for another month or so... The downside of all the new writers is that all the good topics might already be taken... Bottomline stands though... If a subject is big and important enough, like these recent changes, you're bound to see it pop up more than once in the Tip.it Times... Jagex dragged the whole 'vote'-thing out for over three weeks, so perhaps the cause of repeated article subjects is not entirely ours? @Wessan: While you make some very good points, I think the key argument here is your last line:I understand it is a problem, but if Jagex can keep it to a minimum, THAT is something I can COPE with. So far Jagex have pretty much proven that they can't... I agree that we should give them a chance (again), but given their trackrecord and admission that these things will always be a problem, I'm not expecting much... When Botting and RWT and attempts at Scamming and Phishing and Begging are back to levels from before the implementation of Free Trade (knowing it was still a major problem), I'll publicly eat my words... But untill then I rather wait and see... And remain convinced that they should first have tried to get rid of these problems before bringing these changes about... I have a feeling you'll be getting hungry then. Those words were a safe bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioIce Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 If something is being botted to the point of no return, that means the gameplay mechanics involving it are broken. Meaning it's too much of a worthless grind and therefore not worth the time doing something more enjoyable. Now, if each tree were it's own short yet addicting minigame that, if you cut it a certain way yielded more experience, then it'd certainly be an improvement over the click-and-wait gameplay. Oh hell, turning a tree into one massive jenga pile, where if you and a few others cut the tree in the right way gave more logs and xp, would be more fun than what we currently have for many players. Same goes for fishing, or mining, or any number of botted skills. No one really "plays" a skill like woodcutting, where you, the player, are actively interacting with the game. Instead it's usually click a tree, do something else in real life or off-screen, then back to another tree. It doesn't take any skill at all to do resource gathering, unless you were to do them through activities that demand actual player skill i.e. level runecrafting and acquire runes by playing the Great Orb Project. Prepare to Die! Path of Exile RPG "Think where man's glory most begins and ends, and say my glory was I had such friends." Yeats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iiLy Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Thankyou stormrage for having the balls to say what is needed. That free trade is not needed and not welcome by many players. Especially low to mid levels, how hard do you think they were hit by the raw item crash. People were fine with the OG G.E now its top heavy and the only people benefiting are super rich flippers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossed_Body Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Trade off seems like an angry rant more than anything.This. And some of his points were very weak too. And yes, I am happy I voted 'yes'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawkk Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Great article Stormrage, I completely agree with you. I wanted to vote yes to wilderness and no to free trade. I very rarely PK but I felt the old wildy was a big part of runescape and it had to feel dangerous (sure, the revs were nasty but they weren't organized or tactical like players are). But since it was either yes or no to both of them I voted no since the trade limit worked very well at preventing some of the scum of runescape from attempting scams and it hampered real-world trading. The only thing I thought it needed changed was the trade limit between long-term friends to be much higher. The amount of people begging for money and scamming now is rediculous. Someone shoot them all please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Lower prices of these goods ARE caused by bots, not by normal supply and demand or by legitimate game-play, so you claiming these lower prices are the true prices automaticaly means one of two things: --you appreciate the influence of bots or you really do not know what you are talking about.nice try at discrediting me by saying i approve of bots. here's why fishing would still be comparatively crappy money without the influence of bots: there are two things you can do in runescape - fishing and killing monsters. fishing takes 60 actions per hour, and killing monsters takes 6000. at the start of this exercise, both fishing and monster hunting make 1 million gp per hour. if you were a monster hunter, what incentive would there be for you to kill monsters instead of fishing? you risk more, work harder, and get paid the same. so you switch over to fishing. this increases the supply of fish and the demand for monster drops, and decreases the supply of monster drops and demand for fish. this pushes fishing wages down and monster hunting wages up. at what price the equilibrium will settle is uncertain from the given assumptions, but fishing will always be lower wage than more difficult options. You said this before... and you are totally correct, no one has to do any part of the game.. but how does this have any baring on this discussion? How does having or not having to do a skill make it that --illegal activities should be allowed to make any skill less profitable then it would be if the game were honestly played?Explain that to me... please...it has bearing (that's how you spell it by the way) on the conversation because purported skillers claim to be helpless to adapt to current markets. bots are here, whether you like it or not, and you must adapt, and no amount of complaining is going to change that the bots are here. i like how you keep trying to twist what i'm saying into "LOL IM BLADEWING I SUPPORT BOTS BOTS R GOOD SKILLERS R DUM" Runescape has 25 skills, over a dozen mini-games, activities, 100s of quests.. a full map and much more, all this IS Runescape. Jagex works hard, one assumes, to make all this worth playing and rewarding, --and they should or take the parts they consider useless out. You claim the current devaluation of parts of the game by cheaters is not a problem because there is other parts that one can play instead.. how --does that make sense? That would mean them originally taking away W/FT was totally ok since you could do boss hunting.. pvp.. or fishing instead. Is that what you are saying? i never said that the devaluation of parts of the game isn't a problem. please stop putting words in my mouth. i am discrediting the notion that one is a fisher for money and cannot help that and is 100% a victim of the bots. You claim this is what we(?) are saying: - gathering skills should be more profitable -> No, they should be as profitable as they would be in a game without all these bots.- i have to use gathering skills "to live" in runescape (lol) -> no, I do every part of the game and make money out of just about all if I so choose. - people who refuse to play certain parts of the game (skillers) should be allowed all the benefits of playing those neglected parts of the game without the effort of actually playing them -> Ehm.. benefits without actualy playing? Did you read anything I said? A game is meant to be played, every xp and every gp I have on my account I earned by playing..i am saying that those are OPINIONS being portrayed by posters as FACT. would you read at least one of my posts instead of copypasting and distorting it? It seems to me you really like the return of W/FT and do not like any criticism on this decision.. Not sure but that is the vibe you give up. I myself like w/ft and always have, but I do not like the downsides. -- To me it is about balance, upsides V downsides should decide what happens. I still hope Jagex can make it so the downsides will loose a lot of there impact, as in.. they can take out a lot of the cheating, -- botting and rwt increase made possible by the return of W/FT. Making one side of the game better should not make an other side a lot worst.. specially if this is due to cheating. I understand this includes pk-ing, skills should not make pk-ing impossible.. but.. that did not happen did it.. it was cheating that made Jagex take away W/FT ...you get that vibe because after every sentence i write you add in your own "and bladewing likes bots". my posts are not about free trade or wilderness, they are about skillers playing the victim and refusing to adapt to today's ruenscape - runescape with free trade and wilderness. i encourage you to reread my posts :???: Sigh.. anyone without a bias reading this thread can judge themselves.. but basically, all you are saying here is total non sense towards the only thing I really called you on... : You claim lower prices on gathered goods are basically as they should be... ( Bladewing : "low price is their true price." )I claim by far the biggest reason for these lower prices are bots. I claim one other thing: a game should be played and not cheated and that is what a gaming-company should strive for.Fishing, the example you use, being less profitable.. regardless.. does not matter.. you repeating this does not matter.. and if you can not see this this discussion is over. I never said you support bots, I left room for the other possibility , that you just do not understand..I also did on purpose not react to your generalisation of skillers.. or any other group, since I do not believe this game should be about a them versus us mentality. Nor am I a skiller, or a pker, or what ever.. I do all in the game.. and many others also do this, if I were a skiller though, i would still not care about your slander, since your opinion on that does not matter to me. I only care about having a fun and fair game. If you do want a serious discussion , then please answer the question you avoided earlier: -Why should illegal activities be allowed to make any skill less profitable then it would be if the game were honestly played? Ps. I am sure you will find spelling mistakes in this also, thanks in advanced for helping me..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Well Bladewing, there's one thing in that post that I think is the real thing the skillers have a problem with: "bots are here, whether you like it or not, and you must adapt" They evidently DO NOT want to adapt, they want skilling to be more profitable, which would happen in a RS sans bots. Fact. The question does remain on how much more profitable it is. Also, yes, boss hunting contrasted with skilling, most risks and it's harder, but your missing another factor: fun. In my experience, it seems that boring, mindless grinding without bots is fairly profitable, because people will pay a good amount of money to NOT need to do a boring, mindless grind. In fact, that's like, half the reason bots exist right there.... To Dracae: "Also, risk v reward does not determine all in the game. It applies to combat.. but if you want a game that is only about combat.. go play a FPS..Time invested, patience, concentration, social skills, understanding of maths and English, etc etc all also determine ones 'success'" Tell me. When skilling, how useful is...time invested, ok, everything takes time. Patience, skilling takes time, doing things that take time require patience. Concentration? I'm sorry, when people skill they often try to find something else to occupy them so they DON'T have to concentrate. Social skills, if you count talking while fishing to ignore how grindy it is, sure... Understanding of math....um, be able to calculate how much your 2346 fish are at 643 each? Wait, the GE can do that for you.... Or, you know, a calculator. Not to mention how most skills are, in all honesty, mostly useless. I'll just stop here before I go into a huge tangent on how, in all honesty, many skills are mostly useless. I read a good quote though, something about skills will always be bad until cutting maples is more then just clicking a tree and waiting for your guy to chop it, repeat until full, bank. But, I guess both of you probably understand that, the real difference is the skillers, like Dracae, are saying "this isn't fair, life shouldn't be like this, skilling should be more useful/profitable" whereas Bladewing seems to be saying "deal with it," which, incidentally, does not translate into him thinking/saying "this IS fair, life SHOULD be like this." First off: bots are here to stay, learn to deal with it is true, but in this discussion still total BS. We all know you can not ban cheating totally, but we also all know botting was very dramatically cut down in 07 and now is on a huge increase again. Jagex claimed to be able to handle this fallout , which , looking at the discussions on forums was a main reason for many ppl to vote yes.Some players want things there way regardless of any consequence.. well, that ends all discussion doesn't it.. My ideal sytuation would be to have what Jagex promised when they put the poll out: Runescape WITH wilderness and free trade, WITH skilling AND pk-ing , with only a bit of an increase in cheating.. not a massive one , like we see now.Skillers want an increase in profits: also non sense, I have not seen anyone, including TS ask for this, skillers ask for the prices to be fair and true, not affected by massive cheating. Example: a shark without bots would be lets say 900 ea, and with bots affecting it 500 then I want it to be 900.. I am not asking for it to be increased to 1000 or what ever.. "Tell me. When skilling, how useful is...time invested, ok, everything takes time. Patience, skilling takes time, doing things that take time require patience. Concentration? I'm sorry, when people skill they often try to find something else to occupy them so they DON'T have to concentrate. Social skills, if you count talking while fishing to ignore how grindy it is, sure... Understanding of math....um, be able to calculate how much your 2346 fish are at 643 each? Wait, the GE can do that for you.... Or, you know, a calculator." -> I talked about the game of Runescape, NOT skilling.. so, please re-read, and if you then still want to argue concentration is not needed in RS, well.. then your better then me at afk-ing lets say TD's "he real difference is the skillers, like Dracae, are saying "this isn't fair," -> Again... read... I AM NOT A SKILLER.... AND I DID NOT TALK ABOUT FAIRNESS... I play this game.. ALL PARTS.. and I am annoyed by prices of gathered stuf going down because it is caused by cheaters .. by something that does not belong in the game! I did not and will not complain about prices changing because of legitimate game additions, like with maples that went down due to miscellanea..I have not only always adapted to changes in this game for 6 years, but also always told everyone: 'Adapt or go extinct' . Adapting to cheating how ever is not the right thing to do, the right thing is to combat it! That is rude, judgemental, generalising, trolling and plain wrong. Its rude, judgmental, generalizing, trolling however it is right. Bots arent leaving, and skills will always be crap money so long as it takes no skill for the player to do (notice merching/pking/staking all take skills and SKILL). You were right in your post about needing skills to be good, and frankly everything you listed a monkey can do. It takes a little more effort to predict the market, or learn the inner mechanics of how to win a fight and swing the majority of them in your favor (and a bit of luck!). It is only true that skillers get nowhere in Runescape if you equate 'getting somewhere' with getting fast money.There is a lot more to a game then money, in fact, a lot of players would consider a pure with 200 totally level and a billion in the bank a failure.. not me , I consider everyone who manages to get a personal goal done successful. BTW, I am not poor at all, I do not depend on fishing or any (one) skill for money, nor am I incapable of successfully merchanting, pk-ing, staking or what ever.. I do what I feel like doing and have fun doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 If something is being botted to the point of no return, that means the gameplay mechanics involving it are broken. Meaning it's too much of a worthless grind and therefore not worth the time doing something more enjoyable. Now, if each tree were it's own short yet addicting minigame that, if you cut it a certain way yielded more experience, then it'd certainly be an improvement over the click-and-wait gameplay. Oh hell, turning a tree into one massive jenga pile, where if you and a few others cut the tree in the right way gave more logs and xp, would be more fun than what we currently have for many players. Same goes for fishing, or mining, or any number of botted skills. No one really "plays" a skill like woodcutting, where you, the player, are actively interacting with the game. Instead it's usually click a tree, do something else in real life or off-screen, then back to another tree. It doesn't take any skill at all to do resource gathering, unless you were to do them through activities that demand actual player skill i.e. level runecrafting and acquire runes by playing the Great Orb Project. I agree a lot of these skills could be a bit / a lot more involving, but that still does not excuse bots ruining the proceeds. Bots are not part of normal game play as made by Jagex, how ever standing there waiting for you inventory to fill is. Now, like I said, i would not be against this changing, but as long as Jagex has these 25 skills there a lot off ppl want xp in them and getting a normal reward, as determined by how Jagex made the game for getting this xp is not to much to ask.. I want to also note that bots are getting more and more sophisticated, its only a matter of time before bots are capable of killing Jad, merchanting, Pk-ing, or what ever else this game has to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ts_Stormrage Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Ok guys the discussion seems to have gone a bit off topic, but this discussion has given me a HUGE idea for one of my next articles (your post has been the main instigator for this idea, Mr Squab, I hope you don't mind me quoting you)... @ everyone claiming I have the balls to say what noone dares to publicly say:It's why they still tolerate me over here :) Something along the lines of a mutual punching bag for everyone, I forgot... Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it ClanMember of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent GuardiansFounder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institutionTip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?Check us out!==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==CLICK IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Ring_World: There is one disconnect here. My reasoning is this: - The article says w/ft has bad side-effects, one of them is the lower prices for gathered products due to bots.- Your reaction is: prices will settle in a month, and also: these lower prices are the natural prices. Note the word - lower- since this discussion is about the defects of w/ft update, lower does not stand for lower then other skills.. but for lower then it would be without bots. - I did not, will not, argue skilling should be potentially more profitable, I argue only one thing: cheating should not influence profitability . period. You say: skilling already has a lower reward and players do not have to skill.. so these lower prices do not matter ( if needed I can quote you saying both things ) I do not see how what you say excuses the influence of blatant cheating. Everything in this game has its own time and risk V xp and money as designed by jagex, by the economics of Runescape. THAT is how it should be, not 'as defined by how many bots are in the game' .You should also be aware 'skilling' is not a single thing. You call fishing skilling.. where it is gathering. There are skills that , if your prepared to concentrate on it , click a lot, you can make a hell of a lot more then for instance fishing.. I don't see why you generalise so much to get skillers V killers.. or call all skillers complainers..If I did the same I could point towards the constant complaining by some pk-ers for years... and say : all pk-ers are complainers.I know better though. So why do I 'complain' , as you call it? I want this game to be as 'clean' as possible, so, with the least amount of cheating possible, again, like Jagex promised when they put the poll out. To be totally clear, make sure there is no misunderstanding, your quote:"I dont see how low income takes away from that, and if you think it deserves more money per hour then you missed the point entirely " If low income means less then other methods, then it takes nothing away from it.. if low however means the prices like they are now, as caused by bots then this takes away from it because its just wrong. SO, 'skilling' does not deserve MORE money, then it should have, but it does deserve more then it has now.. since .. again.. the current prices are caused by cheating. I do not know how to make it any more clear, but, I'd like others to tell me if what I am saying is so hard to understand, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ts_Stormrage Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 It's clear to me and you're right too... While Skilling shouldn't be as profitable as Monster Hunting or PK-ing or even Staking... It should be more profitable than it is now, as current prices are pushed down by bots... Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it ClanMember of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent GuardiansFounder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institutionTip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?Check us out!==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==CLICK IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blyaunte Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 It's clear to me and you're right too... While Skilling shouldn't be as profitable as Monster Hunting or PK-ing or even Staking... It should be more profitable than it is now, as current prices are pushed down by bots...Then again -- bot killing seems to be something of a money maker unto itself ... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ts_Stormrage Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Yeah but that's not possible with ALL bots... Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it ClanMember of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent GuardiansFounder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institutionTip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?Check us out!==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==CLICK IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracae Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 It's clear to me and you're right too... While Skilling shouldn't be as profitable as Monster Hunting or PK-ing or even Staking... It should be more profitable than it is now, as current prices are pushed down by bots... Lol, that is why you are the writer, clear and concise recap of what took me a whole post to say.. Thanks, and for that matter, thanks for the nice articles also.. I am usually to busy ..discu..arguing.. to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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