Tip.It Times - 13th February 2011

[Nifflin]

 

@Nifflin: bots don't affect legitimate players directly, but RWT (the objective of botting) does in a huge way.

Apart from the stolen credit cards, which is something that is controllable now, how does RWT negatively affect legitimate players? Oh and I would contest that RWT is the objective of botting as shown by how there were still many bots during the restricted trade era for simple personal in game advancement and not for RWT. The numbers of bots have gone up but bots are often for personal use as much as for RWT.

 

Yeah, people just pay for bots now. Incidentally, what I heard is that all the people using this infamous FREE bot were the ones who got hacked. Obviously the people selling the PAID bot aren't willing to jeopardize it, presumably because they make enough money off the bot as it is. The shift from bot accounts to botting on someone's main happened, yes, largely because you can't trade with a throw-away account; however, obviously it couldn't have been that risky to bot on your account if lots of people botted on their mains. Either the bots got better or, as cynical people believe, botters make up a large amount of Jagex' revenue and thus Jagex is being more lenient towards them.

 

Oh and I agree with the above poster - MMORPGs are, to a certain extent, competitions. Compete with people in bossing or PVP. Botting/RWT gives people advantages over others in those areas, like more money. Lots of money. For really expensive weapons/armour and herblore and prayer and stuff.

 

Now that I think about it though, stuff like WC training bots don't annoy me that much. Few more people at ivy isn't the biggest problem in the world lol....

 

The alternative to people botting and not having that money is that raw material prices go way up. If anything, bots help the way higher leveled people play because they provide raw materials. And RWT in order to monster hunt isn't a huge deal, in the end those elite skills aren't that expensive in game considering the avenues available to make money through. RWT makes sense for a lot of people who say work jobs and want to enjoy the endgame without going through the grind. Let them have their fun, more players are ultimately better.

 

 

@Nifflin: bots don't affect legitimate players directly, but RWT (the objective of botting) does in a huge way.

Apart from the stolen credit cards, which is something that is controllable now, how does RWT negatively affect legitimate players? Oh and I would contest that RWT is the objective of botting as shown by how there were still many bots during the restricted trade era for simple personal in game advancement and not for RWT. The numbers of bots have gone up but bots are often for personal use as much as for RWT.

 

With unlimited cash and training available 24/7, botting produces more competition for higher leveled resources.

Legitimate players have to earn money to be able to make overloads, to name one example... RWT lets you buy them. The same goes for botting or paying others to train your account during restricted trade.

Through RWT, players can risk as much as they want at bosses, PKing, staking, etc, and not worry about that impact. Legitimate players are restricted by what they have the means to supply.

 

If your view of botting is limited to level 3s chopping yew logs, picking flax, and playing the archery game, then yes - these accounts do not have a direct impact on legitimate players. But main account botting and buying money (produced by these low level bots) to use on main accounts fundamentally change the game experience for legitimate players.

 

There are no higher level resources that botters cause competition for. Chins are the only one, if that even counts as a higher level resource. Most high leveled moneymakers are unbottable. Trust me, losing 200m staking sucks even if you RWT, you still had to earn that money in real life. I don't support RWT because I don't like the idea that a persons IRL status can effect their performance in game, however botting isn't nearly as bad and it's connection to RWT isn't as strong as people make out. This was shown when RWT was eliminated and botting still grew.

[Lose No Hope]

In the past we had more variety of randoms, the point is that they were really annoying to everyone and were eventually removed. Either way, randoms pose little challenge to bots, new randoms will waste developer time which detracts from more important updates (smithing) and annoy existing players.

Actually, the reason they removed certain randoms was because they could kill people. The only ones were annoying were randoms like the ent because they destroyed your items.

 

I personally would be fine with some small updates every once in a while to mix in with the bigger ones.

Maybe you weren't around for the randoms that made whatever you were skilling with fly away, the axe head random, the pickaxe head random and the big fish/whirlpool random. There were two unique randoms for mining, fishing and woodcutting and they did nothing to stop bots. Why continue to design more randoms when it will likely be only a few days before botters develop a script to circumvent the random? In the end that developer time is lost as soon as the bots are updated.

 

It's like saying that producing more failing condoms is okay if we make more flavors of them. No, it's not okay because they still fail at their original purpose and things are better overall without them. Sure some people prefer the taste every once in a while but the vast majority prefer to proceed unencumbered. Rather then produce more flavors of failing condoms it would be more beneficial to move away from condoms all together to a more effective method of birth control.

 

Same with bots. More variety in randoms doesn't help if randoms don't work in the first place. Resources are better spent being put into alternative ways of combating botting rather then something which is known to fail.

I was there for all of those randoms and while I was angry the one time I did lose my rune axe head, it wasn't too bad.

 

What different idea do you suggest Jagex should do to combat botting right now? Whatever they are doing atm isn't working very well.

[sees_all1]

Well it would be ridiculous to update everything that is botted every few days. Again, it would be too resource consuming and detract from the creation of content. Too small changes and the bots can easily adapt, too big changes and the developers are wasting time. Really, altering the content of the game is NOT the way to combat botting.

You only need to catch a bot once to ban the account.

[jettrider]

 

@Nifflin: bots don't affect legitimate players directly, but RWT (the objective of botting) does in a huge way.

Apart from the stolen credit cards, which is something that is controllable now, how does RWT negatively affect legitimate players? Oh and I would contest that RWT is the objective of botting as shown by how there were still many bots during the restricted trade era for simple personal in game advancement and not for RWT. The numbers of bots have gone up but bots are often for personal use as much as for RWT.

 

With unlimited cash and training available 24/7, botting produces more competition for higher leveled resources.

Legitimate players have to earn money to be able to make overloads, to name one example... RWT lets you buy them. The same goes for botting or paying others to train your account during restricted trade.

Through RWT, players can risk as much as they want at bosses, PKing, staking, etc, and not worry about that impact. Legitimate players are restricted by what they have the means to supply.

 

If your view of botting is limited to level 3s chopping yew logs, picking flax, and playing the archery game, then yes - these accounts do not have a direct impact on legitimate players. But main account botting and buying money (produced by these low level bots) to use on main accounts fundamentally change the game experience for legitimate players.

 

There are no higher level resources that botters cause competition for. Chins are the only one, if that even counts as a higher level resource. Most high leveled moneymakers are unbottable. Trust me, losing 200m staking sucks even if you RWT, you still had to earn that money in real life. I don't support RWT because I don't like the idea that a persons IRL status can effect their performance in game, however botting isn't nearly as bad and it's connection to RWT isn't as strong as people make out. This was shown when RWT was eliminated and botting still grew.

 

Sorry, I didn't explain what I meant by "resources" fully. I don't mean skilling resources, although there are much better high level gathering techniques than chins.

Botting, which provides most of the means for being able to buy cash, means you have more people crowding high level moneymaking methods like bosses and removing the profitability of mid-combat moneymakers. When players can pay for cash to buy high leveled gear, the demand increases while the supply is bottlenecked.

RWT was never fully eliminated. Botting on low level accounts stayed because it was still possible to transfer cash in more roundabout ways and also because people paying to have their stats raised got the same advantages I outlined above. Also, are you talking about botting on main accounts or on low level skill/gathering accounts, or both?

 

The underlined part seems to contradict itself - if you have a large amount of spare cash IRL (status), you do not have to earn it IRL, and it won't suck to pay to affect your performance.

 

The bolded part is what I fundamentally disagree with. What do you think all the flax pickers, green dragon killers, archery game players, yew cutters, coal miners, lobster/shark fishers, and many other bots do with the cash they make if not sell it? Why do bots that don't steal your password and PIN require a cash payment? I won't claim to know what percentage of RWT is done by legitimate players, gold farmers using workers, or botting networks, because you cannot find statistics on that. What I can say is that botting produces consequences for legitimate players.

[strilmus]

I have been loving these last few topics relating to botting. Mainly because I am on the verge of leaving RS for good. After 10 years, I am reaching an ultimate disgust point. While it is true that the companies that create macros are making money and are able to recreate new ways to bypass detection, the fact remains that Jagex has deeper pockets. It is in Jagex that answer must come from. They receive a monthly subscription fee from me as well as someone who is breaking the rules. And in business, money is the bottom line. So how do I get the attention of the big company that does not seem to be on my side. (Now bare with me because this sounded ridiculous the first time I said it to myself.) I propose a "walk-out". One solid week from a huge group of people that refuse to log in. If a week is not enough, then a month. A threat to Jagex that we are tired of it. I will cancel my subscription if the problem persist, and in fact, I suspect it is only about to develop into a giant mushroom cloud.

Ironically, your walk out idea would not work if the amount of bots replaced the amount of legitimate players.

[Assume Nothing]

Well, I'm unsure whether to agree or disagree with the article this week.

 

However, I think it would've been a nice idea to keep Pre-Free Trade and Post-Free Trade as separate games, because it would in theory isolate the problems and then JaGex can work out a way to keep RWT at bay whilst maximizing enjoyment of RuneScape (For example, a more fluid GE with more updates/lower restrictions would have been a nice idea to implement)

 

I'm sure JaGex could also change the game client so that item Id's would no longer show up (although, as I'm no expert with software, this may be impossible), or just swap a bunch around using algorithms every game update. I'm unsure about the bug related implications it may have though.

 

Hmmm... I might add something to this post later.

[Dracae]

What saddens me about all this is.. the huge amount of short sighted selfishness.

I see it again and again, bots make prices of raw materials lower.. so its cheaper for me..

This reasoning is only valid for a part of players, mostly the higher levelled ones and the ones without the desire to do certain skills. New players and ones who want to level there gathering skills get in to trouble because of this. In my opinion RS needs all types of players to keep healthy.. way to many high levels get us what some people call ' an end game scenario', or as I call it: the game will get even more top-heavy then it already is. But really.. I am already getting a little selfish myself here again, those things are bad for the game and in that way bad for me.

Even without this I think lower levels , gatherers simply have the right to get a profit for there activities that is not diminished by cheating. We can even go simpler.. Cheating = wrong.. period..

But , like I allude to earlier, I am also a little selfish, and this is SHORT SIGHTED.. how long do you think it will be until bots can do more complicated things that will affect you directly?

[zotto]

Phishing Bait

 

People continually point out the botting side of RWT. However, the real problem doesn't lie within botting. The real issue is that real people use real money to buy runescape gp!

 

The market for RWT is created by actual people. An amount is mentioned of 37k dollars that is gained by the bot manufacturers and distributors. But the fact remains that gp would be actually worthless if people wouldn't buy gp.

 

Maybe we should start focusing more of this in the fight to get rid of RWT.

[Nifflin]

@ Last_to_Kn0w - I propose that nothing is done and no resources are diverted to combat botting. It only needs to be combated if it threatens Jagex financially, which it doesn't. RWT and botting would divert too many resources to combat effectively and I for one would prefer to see those resources go into actual content development. In my opinion botting is amoral, RWT however is immoral.

 

However if botting was to be combated the most effective methods would be mass IP bans with no chance to regain accounts or appeal bans, also shutting down RWT companies through tracking their IPs and banning their customers could also be effective. Creating algorithims to look for similar activities amoungst large numbers of players could be used to detect which activities are being botted. Player mods dedicated to only combating bots who are given information about the methods Jagex uses to detect botters. Making membership more expensive so botters need to raise the price of gold and RWT becomes less atteactive. These are just things from the top of my head that could possibly be done.

 

@ sees_all1 - Jagex doesn't ban bots that they've only caught once. This is because, in the words of a J Mod, it is beneficial for both the players and the company for them to be given more then one chance. As a result many people bot under the assumption that in the unlikely case that they are caught they can still go back to their account. It becomes a situation where on the one hand they can bot and not be caught, or on the other hand they are bot and caught and lose nothing. This means players tempted to bot have nothing to lose. Perhaps the biggest disincentive now is the recent drama regarding bots stealing passwords.

 

@ jettrider- The thing you were saying about high level monster hunting having a bottleneck and prices rising as a result isn't a negative thing. If you are a monsterhunter then maybe you get drops less often, but the drops being worth more compensates. Ultimately more competitive monsterhunting brings more drops into the game resulting in more items available for everyone. I'm really referring to botting as a whole here, however throwaway accounts are more linked to RWT which is really something not covered at all in the article.

 

Also most people IRL do not just have money magically, chances are if somebody loses in game money they RWTed for then they are losing money from a job. The difference is that it is far more efficient to make money through an IRL job and RWT then through just playing the game, however most people would prefer to play a game then to be a work. By status I mean more like that a person with a high end job has a huge advantage over a teenager, even if the teenager plays the game more. I don't like that idea and I don't see how it contradicts what I said. I can understand how something makes sense for people to do and at the same time think it is immoral.

[langer]

@ Nifflin,

 

Even when trade limits were put in, RWT still existed. Botting and RWT were never eliminated from the game.

[Nifflin]

Even when trade limits were put in, RWT still existed. Botting and RWT were never eliminated from the game.

I understand that and have mentioned it in this thread. Do you have a point?

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Both good articles this week. :)

 

Phishing Bait:

 

Definitely an interesting read. The news of this major phish had hit about two weeks ago, but looking at the situation abstractly, the author (Necromagnus) is right - the only people that should be estatic about this would be the author of the bot.

 

The Autonomous Problem:

 

Definitely something that we've been through - rehashed (which is fine, it's definitely relevant to today) thoughts about how to curb bots and botting.

 

The only problem here - a lot of these changes couldn't work. Take CAPTCHA for instance. It's been tried and it hasn't worked.

 

Also, it's key to remember that any shift in the game (e.g. gameplay, interface shifts, etc) will have an adverse effect on the normal players, as well as it's a matter of time before the bots evolve to combat the changes, anyway.

 

There are some decent suggestions thrown up about what to do, but the best thing to do would likely be reduce or eliminate the need to grind skills.

 

---

 

Yeah, botting is a problem. Having Jagex deliver the much-fabled macro control system would be nice. Hearing it mentioned puts me in mind of Duke Nukem Forever, for whatever reason, though...

[sees_all1]

Jagex doesn't ban bots that they've only caught once. This is because, in the words of a J Mod, it is beneficial for both the players and the company for them to be given more then one chance. As a result many people bot under the assumption that in the unlikely case that they are caught they can still go back to their account. It becomes a situation where on the one hand they can bot and not be caught, or on the other hand they are bot and caught and lose nothing. This means players tempted to bot have nothing to lose. Perhaps the biggest disincentive now is the recent drama regarding bots stealing passwords.

Jagex has put themselves into a position that is very lucrative to catch botters - they'll wipe the stats, ban the account, and attempt to sell the account back to the player. Depending how much they sell accounts, it'll make them more money to catch botters and sell back than it will to let them bot for a year.

[Nifflin]

Jagex doesn't ban bots that they've only caught once. This is because, in the words of a J Mod, it is beneficial for both the players and the company for them to be given more then one chance. As a result many people bot under the assumption that in the unlikely case that they are caught they can still go back to their account. It becomes a situation where on the one hand they can bot and not be caught, or on the other hand they are bot and caught and lose nothing. This means players tempted to bot have nothing to lose. Perhaps the biggest disincentive now is the recent drama regarding bots stealing passwords.

Jagex has put themselves into a position that is very lucrative to catch botters - they'll wipe the stats, ban the account, and attempt to sell the account back to the player. Depending how much they sell accounts, it'll make them more money to catch botters and sell back than it will to let them bot for a year.

I've never heard a single case of them actually selling an account back, even in botting communities. Sounds like it's just a framework that they haven't actually implemented yet.

[langer]

This was shown when RWT was eliminated and botting still grew.

 

RWT was never eliminated, ... that was my point.

[siredwrdross]

One of the most important (if not the most important) issues in any economic analysis must be the incentives created by a give scenario. Your article ignores incentives, focusing only on the effect of extra cash in the pockets of the RWTers. In the RuneScape community, this situation will create an incentive against Real-World Trading on the demand side. In other words, it's going to make the product less appealing, since accounts that use RWT services are still subject to this kind of reprisal - it's just now been made more clear than before to all potential customers.

 

All that being said, I still enjoyed reading your article, and found it informative with respect to the supply side of the issue. Thanks for spending your time to give to the Tip.it community.

[Nifflin]

This was shown when RWT was eliminated and botting still grew.

 

RWT was never eliminated, ... that was my point.

It was largely reduced, enough to where it wasn't present on the same scale as before.

[langer]

This was shown when RWT was eliminated and botting still grew.

 

RWT was never eliminated, ... that was my point.

It was largely reduced, enough to where it wasn't present on the same scale as before.

 

I agree that RWT through junk or selling at GE price made it harder that to simply be able to trade vast amount of cash, but botting decreased for a couple months after trade limits were implemented before they grew back to a noticeable level and somewhat exploded lately.

[ronback]

Ive been away from RS for 2 months, and now im back. I voted no to the wild coming back and the unlimited trade. People that whine because they got riped off really have nothing to cry about. They tried to cheat the system and the cheating got them. Its hard to see this hppen to anyone, we all know someone that is yelling that they have been hacked, however I look at it like this. How did someone get access to your account? Did you share it with someone, did you try and take the easy way of gaining levels by botting? There are questions that we can ask of everyone that yells of being hacked. I know its hard to accept, but life goes on after all Runescape is a game, its not life, its a pass time. Hard work will get you your lost items back. As for botting becoming more frequent accurance, well I see that happening. Best of luck to RS at controlling it best they can, and as for the people who have been hacked or lost money remember hard work will replace the money. Enjoy the game for its content and friends you play with.

[Blyaunte]

I am all in favour of Jagex bringing back the "dangerous randoms", only this time, make them MORE VIOLENT! :twisted:

 

Especially now that we can loot gravemarkers ... :thumbsup:

[sees_all1]

I am all in favour of Jagex bringing back the "dangerous randoms", only this time, make them MORE VIOLENT! :twisted:

 

Especially now that we can loot gravemarkers ... :thumbsup:

I miss the evil chicken.

[Sir_Squab]

I am all in favour of Jagex bringing back the "dangerous randoms", only this time, make them MORE VIOLENT! :twisted:

 

Especially now that we can loot gravemarkers ... :thumbsup:

I miss the evil chicken.

 

I hated that thing. Dharoks bane. Or not needing to log out to go to the bathroom. Although, much less risky now between the lobby and gravestones.

 

....Why don't bots wear rings of life, or just be programmed to recognize if they're under attack and tele if they are?

 

Personally, I'd be in favour of stuff like the drunk dwarf, that hurts you if you don't give it any attention, except that I can't see it actually being effective.

[Lose No Hope]

I am all in favour of Jagex bringing back the "dangerous randoms", only this time, make them MORE VIOLENT! :twisted:

 

Especially now that we can loot gravemarkers ... :thumbsup:

I miss the evil chicken.

 

I hated that thing. Dharoks bane. Or not needing to log out to go to the bathroom. Although, much less risky now between the lobby and gravestones.

 

....Why don't bots wear rings of life, or just be programmed to recognize if they're under attack and tele if they are?

 

Personally, I'd be in favour of stuff like the drunk dwarf, that hurts you if you don't give it any attention, except that I can't see it actually being effective.

The one time I did go out the other day to kill bots at the ranging guild, there were a few with ROLs.

The only threat the evil chicken posed was to skillers. Even then, if they were paying decent attention, they shouldn't get killed. The real pain was the strange fruit plant because if you were in a bank/area with a lot of other people, sometimes you wouldn't notice it until you got attacked.

 

But I agree that ones like the dwarf or my favorite, Dr. Jekyll, would be nice reintroductions into the game.

[rsspirit]

Even when we had limited trade the problems remained so what would happen if jagex desided to sell rs gold for real money?

 

Yes im aware that it will never happen but could it be a way to fight of RWT?

 

I like to point out im not for RWT, i dont bot and i have never bought money either, like all of you i would like a solution

to the problem. I only mentioned this to hear what all you great minds can come up with both god and bad sides. :)

[sees_all1]

Even when we had limited trade the problems remained so what would happen if jagex desided to sell rs gold for real money?

 

Yes im aware that it will never happen but could it be a way to fight of RWT?

 

I like to point out im not for RWT, i dont bot and i have never bought money either, like all of you i would like a solution

to the problem. I only mentioned this to hear what all you great minds can come up with both god and bad sides. :)

If Jagex sold GP as a micro transaction, several things would happen all at once - massive inflation from people that don't have the patience to raise the GP themselves, RWTers would be legitimatized in the prices they set (Jagex sells gold for $X/million, we sell for less!), and the game as we know it would be over (their business model is lots of content for very little cost, and they retain their customers with those small, monthly, fixed costs).