Rivers Run Red

[Retech]

1. The reason that I didn't put natural on there because I don't think that it really exists as a separate thing. I didn't misread or forget.

2. Rogue trader is planned tomorrow as well.

[Nexaduro]

WHAT THE [bleep].

 

WHY.

 

@Retech:

Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.

[Retech]

That's just enhancement bonus? I don't see how there's any difference between that and anything else.

 

The thing is that if we pretend that a breastplate's AC bonus is actually enhancement bonus, we could put on a second piece of armor (let's say, chainshirt) and the bonuses would stack, which isn't usually how it works.

 

So it doesn't really work like that. In general, enhancement bonuses are more expensive or temporary, or sometimes both. Why did you want enhancement bonus instead of just regular?

[Nexaduro]

Yes, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO USE IT LIKE THAT. And it IS different than Armor Enhancement Bonus because it can only be applied to Natural Armor Bonuses, but stacks with them as well. I want it so I can get the Natural Armor Bonus of a Monk of the Sacred Mountain as well as my Changeling Natural Armor Bonus.

 

But that's not what I'm worried about quite so much, I'd rather have a ruling on my Claws.

[Retech]

Nex, those two stack. Natural armor bonuses from different sources stack with each other.

 

Same as temporary HP and a lot of other things (but usually not enchantment bonuses, luck bonuses, etc).

[Corvus]

And could you explain said commandments of practical optimization?

The Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization - if tl;dr, be sensible and dont abuse loopholes and errors or trick the DM into letting you abuse the rules.

 

Why not just make a bunch of level 20 characters and do that, then, instead of using the same character with some minor changes?

 

Trust me, this does not work very well unless you have a specified DM as other people will declare each other to be cheating (such as a time I made use of a technicality of the incorpreal combat rules to become essentially invincible[did you know that magic arrows fired from an unechanted bow can damage ghosts while non magical arrows from a magic bow cannot? also, monk unarmed strikes cant hit ghosts either] except against magic which I had crazy saves against, Which actually ended up being the least bit of the issue with the duel, which included such things as a Pixie[infinate greater invincibility and flight], a necromancer with increased undead control capacity and a bunch of necromancer followers with more zombies under their control while all the zombies exploded when they die, and an elf ranger that could fire 10 vorpal arrows [the arrows themselves were non magical] a turn that did in excess of 150 damage for each critical hit. amazingly I was the only one they overrode the rules on because it was unfair, despite the fact I made very clear about the distinction between the two more than clear before the battle, and I was the only one who did not use the crazy unfair 3.5 item discount rule abuse)

 

You should be a bear riding bear summoning bear.

 

Also, can I treat the Monk of the Sacred Mountain's Natural Armor bonus as a Natural Armor enhancement bonus?

 

Depending on the use, in Terms of Armor class there is no such thing as a Natural Armor Enchancemnt bonus, However the Natural armor Bonus consists of 2 internal Stats: Natural armor(refered to as a Natural Armor Bonus) and Enhancement bonus (referenced as a Natural armor enhancement bonus), of which you may only Have one of each active at a time(the only exception is dodge bonuses which always stack if from different sources, and for record keeping purposes Enhancement bonuses which may stack with other enchancement bonuses as long as they are not applied to the same character statistic directly.).

Therefore Monk of the Sacred Mountain's Natural Armor does not apply unless an effect were to negate only the Racial natural Armor bonus.

Common Terms - Bonus(Natural Armor)

 

 

Retech, NATURAL ARMOR ENHANCEMENT BONUS. There are many instances where natural armor is given a bonus that isn't a general Armor Enhancement Bonus.

 

also, can I take Improved Natural Attack for Unarmed Strikes? It says Unarmed Strikes cannot recieve the bonus, but then Monks can take ANY bonus to unarmed strike qualifying as a Natural Attack.

 

At this point I'm planning more on using my claws as tools, since Natural Attacks don't count as Unarmed Strikes but Unarmed Strikes count as Natural Attacks. I would ask the GM for a house ruling on the matter, since Claws are really nice flavour and don't have any significant difference from fist attacks.

 

Anyways, since today is f'ing Rogue Trader and tomorrow I HAVE to go to a lunch-dinner-party thing I probably WON'T BE ABLE TO PLAY TOMORROW. Which is really annoying. I would still appreciate my quesitons being answered though.

 

What on earth are you talking about with Improved Natural Attack? The rules Specifically state that Unarmed Strikes do not qualify (When I last posted on this question I assumed that Retech had actually read the Feat's rules before asking so I therefore did not look at it closely) (okay if you want to get technical, Monks of races without natural weapons can take the feat, but they cannot actually benefit from it.) This is because Unarmed Strikes are ALWAYS dealt using fists, elbows, etc. and it is a result of training that they qualify as a weapon as opposed to being a natural weapon in terms of what the improved natural attack feat works on.

 

Yes, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO USE IT LIKE THAT. And it IS different than Armor Enhancement Bonus because it can only be applied to Natural Armor Bonuses, but stacks with them as well. I want it so I can get the Natural Armor Bonus of a Monk of the Sacred Mountain as well as my Changeling Natural Armor Bonus.

 

As stated before They do not stack.

 

 

 

EDIT:

Nex, those two stack. Natural armor bonuses from different sources stack with each other.

 

Same as temporary HP and a lot of other things (but usually not enchantment bonuses, luck bonuses, etc).

 

What on Earth are you Talking about? Natural Armor bonuses do not stack

Only the following stack (do remeber that an effect cannot stack with itself):

Circumstance bonuses that are not effectively the same

Dodge bonuses

Enhancement bonuses Applied to different things

Untyped bonuses

Edited April 23, 2011 by wyvren2000

[Retech]

Deferring to Wyvren on questions of rules.

 

I am pretty sure that either improved natural attacks applied to unarmed strike or improved unarmed strike applied to natural attacks. I remember reading a WOTC or Paizo FAQ thing that said it worked, though I don't remember if that was from 3.5 or Pathfinder.

[Corvus]

Deferring to Wyvren on questions of rules.

 

I am pretty sure that either improved natural attacks applied to unarmed strike or improved unarmed strike applied to natural attacks. I remember reading a WOTC or Paizo FAQ thing that said it worked, though I don't remember if that was from 3.5 or Pathfinder.

in 3.5 the FAQs stated you can, however Pathfinder altered the Feat to directly to prohibit use in that way

[Retech]

Ah right, okay.

 

I'm talking about different natural armor bonuses. For example, animal companions receive a natural armor bonus based on their level. They also receive a separate natural armor bonus for just being a kind of animal. These bonuses definitely do stack.

 

EDIT: Okay, nevermind. It explicitly states that on this natural armor bonus that it stacks with existing natural armor bonus. Carry on. :)

[archimage_a]

[hide] [/hide]

 

500 credit is open to anyone. No interest.

[Nexaduro]

... But what's the ACTUAL difference between Unarmed and Natural? Really?

 

Either way, looks like my claws have been reduced to rope cutters. So much for that fun concept.

[Retech]

Hey Arch, where did you get that character sheet?

[archimage_a]

http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/03_get_pcgen.php

[Earth]

Hey, Grim, when's the session for this going to end up on? Monday, or somethin?

[Nexaduro]

Okay, character change. This is going to make things interesting for the party. :rolleyes:

[archimage_a]

Can we please get a decent spell caster?

 

Ross constantly firing stuff will get tedious...not to mention will eventually run out of prepapred weapons.

[Nexaduro]

Maybe. :-k

 

Either way I'll have 3 levels of Monk before anything else, and will never take any more.

[Retech]

I'm a full cleric, and those are full spell casters. :P

[Nexaduro]

Yeah but you do it badly Retech, you just use your Gorilla.

 

Also, it's very possible that you would NOT want my character using spells.

[Retech]

Yeah but you do it badly Retech, you just use your Gorilla.

 

Also, it's very possible that you would NOT want my character using spells.

 

The gorilla was only strong because I used buffs to give it some +6 to attack rolls and +9 to damage rolls. Of course, to prevent optimization overload, I am getting rid of my intelligent weapon and gorilla in favor of something more low key, so yeah.

 

Casters aren't just boom boom boom, Nex. They reason why people think they are so good is because they can perform in combat, and have so many other spells to do lots of other stuff, like interrogate someone with waterboarding or something.

[Alg]

Was planning to do sorcerer. Any ideas for spells?

[archimage_a]

Just saying we need some balanced characters....Mask, Glitterdust!

[Grim_]

I just finished creating a wizard if anyone wants one ready made. Grease, enlarge person, bulls strength.

[Earth]

Grim, whens the first session of our level 4 characters gonna be? Tommorow?

[Alg]

This right?

 

 

Cathran

Female Half-Elf Sorcerer 4 | [Neutral Good]

Description

Age 21

Height/Weight 5'0 tall, 100lbs. (Medium)

Homeland ____________________

Deity ____________________

Campaign Kingmaker

Representing Mask

 

Hit Points

HP 16

 

Strength

10 (+0)

Dexterity

14 (+2)

Constitution

10 (+0)

Intelligence

14 (+2)

Wisdom

14 (+2)

Charisma

19 (+4)

 

Initiative +2 = 2 [Dex]

 

Action Points (Lifetime) 8

Skills

SKILL Total + Ability Mod. + Ranks + Misc.

Acrobatics* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Appraise +2 = INT 2+0+0

Bluff +8 = CHA 4+1+3

Climb* +0 = STR 0+0+0

Craft +2 = INT 2+0+0

Craft +2 = INT 2+0+0

Craft +2 = INT 2+0+0

Diplomacy +6 = CHA 4+2+0

Disable Device*† +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Disguise +5 = CHA 4+1+0

Escape Artist* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Fly* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Handle Animal† +4 = CHA 4+0+0

Heal +6 = WIS 2+4+0

Intimidate +4 = CHA 4+0+0

K (Arcana)† +6 = INT 2+1+3

K (Dungeoneering)† +2 = INT 2+0+0

K (Engineering)† +2 = INT 2+0+0

K (Geography)† +3 = INT 2+1+0

K (History)† +3 = INT 2+1+0

K (Local)† +2 = INT 2+0+0

K (Nature)† +3 = INT 2+1+0

K (Nobility)† +2 = INT 2+0+0

K (Planes)† +3 = INT 2+1+0

K (Religion)† +3 = INT 2+1+0

Linguistics† +2 = INT 2+0+0

Perception +4 = WIS 2+0+0+2 [half-elf]

Perform +4 = CHA 4+0+0

Perform +4 = CHA 4+0+0

Profession† +2 = WIS 2+0+0

Profession† +2 = WIS 2+0+0

Ride +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Sense Motive +4 = WIS 2+2+0

Sleight of Hand*† +3 = DEX 2+1+0

Spellcraft† +2 = INT 2+0+0

Stealth* +2 = DEX 2+0+0

Survival +3 = WIS 2+1+0

Swim* +0 = STR 0+0+0

Use Magic Device† +4 = CHA 4+0+0

 

 

* Armor Check Penalty 0

† Trained Only

Equipment

(- ~1000 for Nex)

 

Quarterstaff (No cost listed)

Darkwood Shortbow (50)

20 Common Arrows (1)

Explorer's Outfit (10)

Compass (1)

Disguise Kit (50)

Healer's Kit (50)

Cure light wounds wand (750)

Belt of Incredible Dexterity (+2, 4000)

88g

 

 

Notes

Base Speed [ 30 (6 sq.) ]

 

AC [12] = 10 +2 [Dex]

Touch AC [12] Flat-Footed [10]

 

Base Attack Bonus +2

Basic Melee Attack +2

Basic Ranged Attack +4

 

Fortitude Save +1 = 1 [base] +0 [Con]

Reflex Save +3 = 1 [base] +2 [Dex]

Will Save +6 = 4 [base] +2 [Wis]

 

CMB +2 = 2 [bAB] +0 [str] +0

CMD +14 = 2 [bAB] +0 [str] +2 [Dex] +0 + 10

 

Feats

Martial Weapon Proficiency (Shortbows)

Pass for Human

Empower Spell

+ Eschew Materials, Cantrips

 

Traits

Quick Learner

Scholar of the Great Beyond

Carrying Capacity

Light Load: 33lbs.

Medium Load: 66lbs.

Heavy Load: 100lbs.

Lift Over Head: 100lbs.

Lift Off Ground: 200lbs.

Push or Drag: 500lbs.

Languages

Common

Elven

Draconic

Sylvan

 

Sorcerer Spells Per Day

Level 1 6 + 1 [Cha]

Level 2 3 + 1 [Cha]

 

 

Sorcerer Spells Known

Level 0 6

Read Magic

Dancing Lights

Ray of Frost

Bleed

Prestidigitation

Mending

Level 1 3

Summon Monster 1

Enlarge Person

Mage Armor

Level 2 1

Glitterdust

Special Abilities

Half-Elf

Low-Light Vision

Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any racial effects.

Elven Immunities: Immune to magic sleep. +2 to saves vs. enchantment

Keen Senses: +2 Perception

Multitalented: Choose two favored classes [sorcerer and Rogue].

 

Sorcerer - Elemental Bloodline (Water)

1 Bloodline Spells

-Burning Hands

 

2 Bloodline Powers

-Elemental Ray

-Elemental Resistance

 

 

Experience Points 0