Developers Console...

[BioIce]

A handful of people dedicated to bug hunting found the bug and played with it. The rest of the population in the worlds they crashed were blissfully unaware. I daresay the recent crash is their fault, not Jagex.

 

EDIT: How they found the bug and used it isn't in any way what a "normal" player would do.

[Wkw]

But what they quote says "whenever you click something, we get data. We changed it so we got less data. People sent us too much data"

 

The fault is theirs for making such a change.

 

Look at it another way. In the past when you could safe spot the boss in sgwd, that was obviously a bug, but it wasn't the fault of any player, Jagex alone. Someone who knew how path finding worked could of figured it out, but they had to do nothing to cause it to happen, as it was already there.

[Dragonlordjl]

If a bug exists, and players abuse it, it's the players' fault. Period.

[Wkw]

Not if a bug is something that can be triggered by anyone without knowledge.

 

Such is the penguin bug that allowed people to spot the same penguin many times. Some people could of just clicked twice and spotted it twice, not their fault they hit the bug. While others would obviously abuse it with intent.

[BioIce]

In the case of the penguin bug, you would be correct. It'd be Jagex's fault for not catching it before it was discovered. That bug was easily accessible and obvious.

 

For the world crash, not so much.

[WolfieMario]

But what they quote says "whenever you click something, we get data. We changed it so we got less data. People sent us too much data"

 

The fault is theirs for making such a change.

 

Look at it another way. In the past when you could safe spot the boss in sgwd, that was obviously a bug, but it wasn't the fault of any player, Jagex alone. Someone who knew how path finding worked could of figured it out, but they had to do nothing to cause it to happen, as it was already there.

Well, I had just watched the video Ring_World now posted, but I found it before he posted it. Anyways, watch it. If there's truth to the story it tells, they were intentionally causing the glitch after discovering it, and it wasn't something you could do on accident. They were pretty much DDoSing the servers, by bypassing the game's protection against such attacks. That's right - they basically DDoS'd the game itself.

 

To sum it up, the quote about bytes/second was referring to the strain they could put on the server. Normally, if a single player placed too much strain on the server, it would automatically disconnect them to protect the server. They bypassed that protection, allowing them to put enough strain on the server in a concentrated attack and crash it. Apparently the servers simply aren't built to handle that much strain from an individual player.

Jagex's only mistake is in not successfully detecting these abusers' excessive strain on the world. They say they bypassed the "wall" that disconnects a player when they produce over 50k of input. The abusers were able to put enough input on the world to crash it because Jagex's protection wasn't foolproof and they got by the "wall". Nobody knows the details of the "change" Jagex made that made this attack possible, because apparently it was patched in the past. The abusers never reveal how they bypass the wall. It isn't as simple as clicking on a certain item, or anything else an innocent player would normally do. They proclaim themselves to be a professional glitching team, and they did the crashes for the lulz. What more proof do you need that they should be blamed for the server crashes? (Assuming their story is true, that is)

 

Every game will have its bugs - programmers aren't gods. I can tell you as a programmer myself - making a program entirely impregnable to abuses of any sort is basically impossible (at least, with sufficiently complicated programs). There's no way to guarantee your game is bug-free; even hiring a million testers doesn't guarantee a thing. Not to mention the fact that a slight change in one place can break working code somewhere else, usually in such a minor way you wouldn't have guessed it. Not to mention that Jagex is a company, and not every programmer knows the ins and outs of the entire game. Sure, there are some bugs we can obviously blame Jagex for - the ones that even basic testing would have found that are related to the content of an update. But a bug like this was likely caused by some minor change and Jagex hasn't got the time to make sure that literally every facet of the game still works purely as intended. As I said, you can't guarantee something is bug-proof. We don't know of the thousands of bugs that have been stopped before they appeared in-game, since Jagex has no need to tell us that info. Don't assume the only bugs that come with an update are the ones we know about - there have likely been many more bugs they did stop. It's not as though they know where to find all the bugs, or even how many bugs may have been created by one change. Not to mention there are several "professional" glitching teams who look for exploits like these, and I'm betting even all the glitching teams alone would outnumber Jagex's bug testers, and casual players also do a good job at finding many bugs.

When players abuse a bug like this, it's not Jagex's fault, unless you want to argue that every case of successful crime is the police's fault for not having enough security measures to catch it.

[Den]

I agree with what Wolfie said.

 

Pisses me off how some people live to be [bleep]s..

[captianant]

I understand that Jagex is just a company of people working on what is essentially a massive program, but it's their JOB to ensure that the program they're working on is as stable as possible. If there was a patch long ago that kept people from being able to DDOS a world as shown in that video, there should be at least some annotations in the code saying "DON'T [cabbage] WITH THIS!". The game devs don't do the best job with maintaining their livelihood (RS) as shown by the many bugs that stem directly from the content just released. The company is being mismanaged as I previously said.

 

It makes me wonder if they have any of their old programming team still if old bugs are resurfacing because of (what I presume) some newer dev snipping out what he sees to be useless code.

[Carl]

It's not necessarily a case of any old code being removed, but new code possibly breaking something so minor in something coded years ago.

 

There's another game I play, on the Ps3. It's basically an MMOFPS...One that has been in development since 2008/2009. The old programmers were sloppy with their work, so any new work that's done on the game (As it's a game that's updated in a monthly-basis, in terms of content added, etc.) so any new work done somewhere would end up changing something that was created a year or two prior, something so minor. And when so much stress is put onto the system once launched, that comes to the top and suddenly the game's in a heap due to it. It's not because of the people adding content now, just a minor issue previously that was magnified with something newly released.

 

It is their job, but they can't play God and make everything work perfectly.

 

That video also has no real proof behind it, it's just basic gameplay recorded. Nothing else, no fact in what's being done...Just text that any Joe Soap could do and a bit of a dodgy connection. I'm not convinced, very likely someone just looking for attention. Especially by adding that it's a bug to remember...Well...Not really. Just a world crash.

 

EDIT: Had to cut the original post a bit short due to time restrictions...So adding this in now.

 

Right...if we lived in a perfect world, yes you would expect there to be no issues with the game we play, at all. We would expect it to be bug free, from top-to-bottom. But sadly, we don't live in a perfect world. Not everything is caught and issues can and do arise, often times when we least want them. In reality, there needs to be a better attempt at a relationship with Jagex from its player base.

How things currently work...If players find a bug, they abuse it and then blame Jagex for letting it happen... But what should be happening is those players alerting Jagex to the bug as soon as possible and thanking them for fixing it before things got out of hand. But no...Why would they do that. The majority of players are too selfish and loud-mouthed to want things fixed. They want to break and and then complain about it being broken.

 

In the game I mentioned above, we've established a good working relationship with several of the staff members. Myself and a few others operate the largest clan in the game, and we have always been known to discover glitches. Rather than abuse them to kingdom come, we get hold of the staff and show them their problems, how it's done and tell them possible simple methods to fixing it. Our clan came to house most of the playing staff, because of how we worked. The game itself is in a situation where it doesn't look like it will last longer...And we've discovered some huge bugs that could turn things upside down. But because we care about the game and the enjoyment it provides to us as players, we decided as staff of that clan to never perform them or tell anyone else of them.

 

In RuneScape, that's the complete opposite. Sadly. Most people have little respect for what's given to them and no appreciation what so ever.

 

Yes, some of the above is off topic but it should be noted, anyway.

[Alphanos]

As a programmer myself, I agree that several posters here are being unreasonably harsh on Jagex here. We've certainly seen examples of what seems to have been sloppy coding from them, i.e. the ring of wealth / corp sigil glitch. That should have been preventable, though honestly it's more of a QA failure than anything. Although all programmers should seek to avoid major bugs, sometimes things will get missed, which is why QA has long been necessary on any large software project. Even from that example, it's hard for us to judge Jagex, since we don't know how many similarly or more catastrophic bugs were caught in-house such that we never knew about them in the first place.

 

However, moving on to this DDOS issue - blaming Jagex for it is ludicrous. Anyone who has worked on a moderately sized software project will understand that errors of that sort are simply unavoidable. Every large software project in the world has had issues of a similar level of severity. Compare Jagex's DDOS "bug", which knocked out some things for a few hours, with Sony's PSN bug, ongoing for 5+ days now, which has knocked out all online and some offline play for all PS3s globally. Now just think about how much greater money, resources, and manpower Sony must have for their operation compared to Jagex.

[BeNiceOk]

since we don't know how many similarly or more catastrophic bugs were caught in-house such that we never knew about them in the first place.

 

Another thing to add to this (somewhat in the defense of the QA team) is the environment for testing is only a "re-creation" of what the real environment (live servers) will be like. Some aspects of an update simply cannot be tested until they go live.

 

A piece of code would work fine in house with 20 or 30 computers running the content (or however many they run for their QA), but when 100,000 people access the same content simultaneously, something could break. There is always that variable you cant account for when testing, and bugs can always show up no matter how hard you try to iron them out. Some times you may not even realize that variable was a variable until the bug occurs.

[Matey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9auIVzIw5k&feature=channel_video_title

It really irks me how these kids create these silly little videos with their cool little video effects and their movie music running in the background, spouting off their 'team' names. If it were a simple demonstration and explanation of what happened and what they had done I'd be fine with it, but no they have to start getting all egotistical. I certainly wouldn't be proud of myself if I took pleasure in wasting so many paying customers' time.

 

Random rant, and I'm probably getting worked up over nothing, but Jesus - get over yourself :rolleyes:.

 

As others have said, blaming Jagex for this is silly, and they've said everything I would have said on it. I mainly posted here to vent!

[Alphanos]

[hide=Youtube Video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9auIVzIw5k&feature=channel_video_title[/hide]

It really irks me how these kids create these silly little videos with their cool little video effects and their movie music running in the background, spouting off their 'team' names. If it were a simple demonstration and explanation of what happened and what they had done I'd be fine with it, but no they have to start getting all egotistical. I certainly wouldn't be proud of myself if I took pleasure in wasting so many paying customers' time.

 

Random rant, and I'm probably getting worked up over nothing, but Jesus - get over yourself :rolleyes:.

 

As others have said, blaming Jagex for this is silly, and they've said everything I would have said on it. I mainly posted here to vent!

 

These individuals crave attention. They are delighted by the idea that so many other people have to spend time thinking about something they did. It it their way of trying to find some form of self-importance. Since their whole goal is to feel noticed, of course they have to find some way to take "credit" for the act and show off how "cool" they are.

 

This is exactly the same kind of thing that motivated the fake infinite gold video.

[WolfieMario]

Yeah, it's definitely true that people are more than too harsh on Jagex some time, as though they were the scapegoat for all the game's troubles. Though it's honestly quite disgusting when people say, in the same post (as I've seen now and then) stuff along the lines of "Jagex is [expletive] for failing to control the bots. What the [bleep] are they doing, they don't know how to run their game" and "the bots at least help players by making resources cheaper and doing tasks nobody wants to". In the same post. It's like people who blame the US government for illegal immigration levels, but then defend the illegal immigrants because they're "helpful" and do jobs most people wouldn't (at least not for that cheap). That's just textbook hypocrisy. Slightly more on-topic, whenever you look at comments on a glitching team's videos, you tend to see their fans say "Lol u pwned idiot Jagex they don't know what they're doing. U guys are great", even on videos where glitches are used for clear abuse (e.g. teleporting out of a duel against an unsuspecting player). They condemn Jagex for having glitches, and commend the people who abuse them. I thought, if people didn't abuse glitches, then they wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

 

Sadly, this sort of mentality permeates so much of the RS community - people complain when they don't get enough freedom in the game, but then fail to acknowledge that freedom's price. That's why you always see rant topics crop up on RSOF when a glitch comes out and is abused - by far, people actually blame Jagex more than the abusers. Sometimes it's not even bug abuse - there are many cases of spoiled people who like to throw all personal responsibility on Jagex regardless of how unreasonable it is. That's why you get topics like "omg some *** scammed me out of my dfs wtf Jagex... That's no fair I want it back or Im quitting this suckish game. U can;'t let ppl take ur stuff that easily". Idiots post topics like that even after features such as item lending and price checking were made; it's like anything that makes you unhappy in the game is Jagex's fault. And some people really do seem like they're arguing this - even if they won't say it, they come pretty close. After all, it's Jagex's job to make sure all of their players are happy, right?

 

Sorry for the rant, but as much as Jagex has recently done some stupid decisions, it seems like the rants against them have gotten stupider. At this point, it seems nothing Jagex can do is right, not because "they've ****ed up the game so much", but because nobody will accept anything from them at this point. Personal responsibility and blame are entirely gone from the player community, and all problems are inherently the fault of the company. It's making the game feel like freakin' politics.

I mean, even a friend of mine has denounced perfectly legitimate statements made by Jagex as utter [cabbage], however innocent the public statements may have been. My friend's not stupid; he doesn't blindly follow crowds, but even he's started to use unreasonable claims to make Jagex seem worse than they are (not publicly that is; I mean in personal conversation).

At this point, it's like hating Jagex is a meme. "Meme"'s not the right word exactly, but that's exactly what it's like. It reminds me of how people say Rebecca Black should die in some horrible way or otherwise be subject to torture, and compare the song "Friday" tantamount to torture in itself. Sure, it's got crappy lyrics, and Black's voice is ludicrously auto-tuned and doesn't sound good. But when you see the things people post on that video, or even simply on the subject, it's not a natural sort of deserved hate. It's as though people greatly enjoy joining in on a flood of hatred. It's like a twist on the bystander effect, in the sense that people feel less responsible for their own actions, but the apathy is replaced instead with rage; you've basically got the lynching mob of the internet. Nobody who says something nasty about Rebecca Black ever considers themself a bully for doing it.

 

Likewise, it seems, nobody feels like they have to be reasonable when talking about any controversy pertinent to Jagex. Jagex, to many players, is automatically in the wrong regardless of what they do. They have to please everybody simultaneously - which is honestly more impossible than quashing all the glitches in any game ever made. I mean, please one person, and someone else will rant - if an update doesn't benefit one group of players, even though it may have no bad effect on them either, it is worthless and horrible to them. And while there are many such groups with their own things to rant about, what never seems to change is that they can all agree to rant about Jagex. Honestly, if anything will get me to quit this game more than the bugs, macros, and Jagex's controversy handling flops, it's the general negative and unreasonable attitude that now permeates so many players. Sure, people have always hated Jagex, but not like this... Newb's post shows it's possible for a player community to coexist peacefully with the game's creators and not blame them for everything under the sun. I'm betting Jagex and its representatives were once generally liked by the players, or there's no way the game could have grown as popular as it has. But nowadays, it's okay for people to blame Jagex for whatever they like. Find a glitch? Abuse as much as you like, it's entirely their fault.

Don't think I'm placing any sort of unreasonable blame on players. Clicking a penguin twice can be a legitimate accident. Clicking it half a thousand times is not, and does not entail you to rant when you are banned for bug abuse. Jagex employees may have goofed up, and should be held somewhat responsible, but they do not become the sponge that absolves all players of their own responsibility.

 

[/rant] :mellow:

[Urbex]

This is pretty far off topic now, but I'd just like to reassure everyone that you won't get banned for abusing this. BCEL bots that have been running since the start of the game work by modifying the client, and they've never been banned due to that.

 

(inb4botter)

[Danqazmlp]

Wolfie, I think I may be in love. :thumbup:

 

Joking aside, that it pretty much exactly how I feel, put into a much more eloquent, descriptive and solid form than I could ever write it.

[BioIce]

 

Sadly, this sort of mentality permeates so much of the RS community - people complain when they don't get enough freedom in the game, but then fail to acknowledge that freedom's price.

 

Personal responsibility and blame are entirely gone from the player community, and all problems are inherently the fault of the company. It's making the game feel like freakin' politics.

 

Honestly, if anything will get me to quit this game more than the bugs, macros, and Jagex's controversy handling flops, it's the general negative and unreasonable attitude that now permeates so many players. Sure, people have always hated Jagex, but not like this...

 

 

Eh, if you're going to stay in this game, then it's probably to see how far the trainwreck Runescape's become is going to last. There's something morbidly fascinating about it, like an inglorious accident happening right before your eyes.

 

I'll bring the popcorn.

[WolfieMario]

^

I think Jagex should patch things BEFORE they happen. The DDOS thing is something I agree Jagex tried and failed [understandable really]. However other things such as BA blood runes glitch is a perfect example of Jagex not having proper quality assurance to prevent things from happening.

Well, you should realize that they do patch many things before they happen. I brought that up in a previous post. For example, the developer's blog of Summoning said that it's a lot of work creating a new skill, because they have to do ludicrous amounts of testing for ways the new content can be glitched, providing the example that one tester managed to summon several familiars at once. They do have bug testers before updates are released; if that weren't the case the game would be more chaotic than you'd believe. As a programmer, I can tell you, I have found many glitches in my own programs, some of which were amusing, and others of which were rather dangerous, abusable, or utterly destructive (yay five minute system freeze and browser crash :rolleyes:), before I even got halfway through finishing the coding stage. You start finding bugs long before you move on to bug-testing; that's just the nature of programming. Trust me, if they literally never compiled the game a single time before releasing the update, you'd be left with something entirely unplayable.

 

Of course, there are failures where testing was clearly not done, but these usually tend to be the emergency patches to correct other bugs that crop up. That's why we had the stupid mistake that multiplied runecrafting xp to ludicrous quantities in Daemonheim. Stuff like that is entirely the fault of the person who did the patch - "emergency" or not, testing is a must. Especially considering, oftentimes, attempting to patch a bug will inadvertently create a new one, as the patch itself can be flawed - this is why programming takes time.

 

Now, which version of the BA blood rune smuggle are you referring to? As I've read, there have been countless versions of the smuggle, many created inadvertently by new, entirely unrelated updates. If there's fifty ways to cause a problem, and you quash 40 of them before you even release the update, there's still 10 ways to cause the problem (which in this case you don't know about). Not to mention that smuggling glitches in particular are often "reborn" countless times: new ways to pull it off can come with any update. That's why they never stopped players smuggling from Daemonheim - they stop it a dozen times, but people keep finding new ways to pull it off. It's a rather ridiculous (though amusing) demand for quality assurance to play Barbarian Assault every time there's an update. Players, however, are much more likely to find the bugs, not only by sheer virtue of numbers, but because they aren't on a tight schedule (well, in the sense that you can spend much more time dungeoneering than Jagex can; nobody's really waiting for you. And even if you in particular don't have the time, someone definitely does), and also because players can experience old and new content side-by-side. To ask the QA team to re-test all old content when anything new comes out would mean that updates would grind to a standstill simply due to the massive amounts of testing. Sure, for a new game, that model doesn't sound so tough - until you've created your 50th quest and have to make sure there's no way it can screw with any of the other quests or minigames. In any combination. See now why I say it is literally impossible to guarantee a game like this has no bugs?

 

Bug abusers are like lawyers to me. Lawyers may be able to get a caught with the bloody knife in his hand murderer and get him off scott free. What that does is make police have to work harder and get more evidence - making more certainty on the murderer next time and decreasing the chance of wrongful imprisonments.

 

A bug abuser does the same thing but with codes. If people didnt abuse bugs imagine how crappy the code would be. Abusing a bug forces Jagex to fix a code and fix everything around a bug to stop and not allow new ones to go through - forced quality assurance. Even Cheesy getting hacked is a good thing, it forced Jagex to fix their recover account code making EVERYONES accounts safer.

Well, there is some point to this. It's true that, if all people magically could be trusted to not abuse bugs, programmers would get a lot lazier. This doesn't only apply to Jagex though - it places responsibility on any programmer to make sure the program actually works and doesn't break. I never said there wasn't responsibility on Jagex for making sure the code's good, and indeed, bug abusers are the ones that create some of the responsibility on the programmers' and QA teams' shoulders. But not all of the responsibility for the consequences of a bug belong on those shoulders, of course.

 

I'm not sure what to say about your analogy (lawyer = bug abuser; bug = criminal; police = programmers), though I guess it works a bit for your argument. I tried a police analogy before, but mine regarded the bug abuser (in this case, bug abuse only being the sort that harms other players or is otherwise used for personal gain) as the criminal, and the bug as the crime. Jagex and their programmers were still the police, of course. Still not a perfect analogy, but I was just saying that we don't usually blame the police for the crime, we usually blame the criminal more for it. Of course there are always cases where people say "where were the police?" and "why couldn't they stop it before it was too late?". And sometimes those cases are justified.

But in Jagex's case, they are invariably blamed for the bug abuse - not just the bug itself, but the outcome of its abuse - and some people forget to vent nearly as much at the abusing players (of course "abusers" get ranted at even when a glitch was accidentally abusable - people suggested that anyone who so much as crafted a single rune in Daemonheim after the RC glitch deserved to be banned, so it shows we've got radicals on both sides of the coin. I guess plenty RS players just like to be unfair :roll:). Now sure, a lot of this can be chalked up to the fact that police usually don't "create" crimes due to their negligence; this is why I say the analogy is far from perfect. But the main point of my analogy was that it's Jagex's job to not have glitches in their game, and the police's job to prevent crimes from being committed. Most police get respected (in general - your mileage may vary a lot based on where you live!) for the good they do, rather than shunned for the bad they fail to prevent. But Jagex is invariably condemned for every bad they fail to prevent, and the good they do is often forgotten in the sight of the bad they couldn't stop. Once again, I know that programming a game and risking your life are hardly comparable at all - so I hope nobody takes my analogy too literally. They key point is that it is impossible for the police to prevent all crimes, just as it is impossible for Jagex to prevent all bugs. Whether or not one means a lot more than the other is irrelevant - it still means people are demanding the impossible from Jagex.

 

Alright, now I feel like I've been repeating myself for no good reason, so I think it's about time I stop, lol :razz: :roll:

[Carl]

Yeah, it's definitely true that people are more than too harsh on Jagex some time, as though they were the scapegoat for all the game's troubles. Though it's honestly quite disgusting when people say, in the same post (as I've seen now and then) stuff along the lines of "Jagex is [expletive] for failing to control the bots. What the [bleep] are they doing, they don't know how to run their game" and "the bots at least help players by making resources cheaper and doing tasks nobody wants to". In the same post. It's like people who blame the US government for illegal immigration levels, but then defend the illegal immigrants because they're "helpful" and do jobs most people wouldn't (at least not for that cheap). That's just textbook hypocrisy. Slightly more on-topic, whenever you look at comments on a glitching team's videos, you tend to see their fans say "Lol u pwned idiot Jagex they don't know what they're doing. U guys are great", even on videos where glitches are used for clear abuse (e.g. teleporting out of a duel against an unsuspecting player). They condemn Jagex for having glitches, and commend the people who abuse them. I thought, if people didn't abuse glitches, then they wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

 

Sadly, this sort of mentality permeates so much of the RS community - people complain when they don't get enough freedom in the game, but then fail to acknowledge that freedom's price. That's why you always see rant topics crop up on RSOF when a glitch comes out and is abused - by far, people actually blame Jagex more than the abusers. Sometimes it's not even bug abuse - there are many cases of spoiled people who like to throw all personal responsibility on Jagex regardless of how unreasonable it is. That's why you get topics like "omg some *** scammed me out of my dfs wtf Jagex... That's no fair I want it back or Im quitting this suckish game. U can;'t let ppl take ur stuff that easily". Idiots post topics like that even after features such as item lending and price checking were made; it's like anything that makes you unhappy in the game is Jagex's fault. And some people really do seem like they're arguing this - even if they won't say it, they come pretty close. After all, it's Jagex's job to make sure all of their players are happy, right?

 

Sorry for the rant, but as much as Jagex has recently done some stupid decisions, it seems like the rants against them have gotten stupider. At this point, it seems nothing Jagex can do is right, not because "they've ****ed up the game so much", but because nobody will accept anything from them at this point. Personal responsibility and blame are entirely gone from the player community, and all problems are inherently the fault of the company. It's making the game feel like freakin' politics.

I mean, even a friend of mine has denounced perfectly legitimate statements made by Jagex as utter [cabbage], however innocent the public statements may have been. My friend's not stupid; he doesn't blindly follow crowds, but even he's started to use unreasonable claims to make Jagex seem worse than they are (not publicly that is; I mean in personal conversation).

At this point, it's like hating Jagex is a meme. "Meme"'s not the right word exactly, but that's exactly what it's like. It reminds me of how people say Rebecca Black should die in some horrible way or otherwise be subject to torture, and compare the song "Friday" tantamount to torture in itself. Sure, it's got crappy lyrics, and Black's voice is ludicrously auto-tuned and doesn't sound good. But when you see the things people post on that video, or even simply on the subject, it's not a natural sort of deserved hate. It's as though people greatly enjoy joining in on a flood of hatred. It's like a twist on the bystander effect, in the sense that people feel less responsible for their own actions, but the apathy is replaced instead with rage; you've basically got the lynching mob of the internet. Nobody who says something nasty about Rebecca Black ever considers themself a bully for doing it.

 

Likewise, it seems, nobody feels like they have to be reasonable when talking about any controversy pertinent to Jagex. Jagex, to many players, is automatically in the wrong regardless of what they do. They have to please everybody simultaneously - which is honestly more impossible than quashing all the glitches in any game ever made. I mean, please one person, and someone else will rant - if an update doesn't benefit one group of players, even though it may have no bad effect on them either, it is worthless and horrible to them. And while there are many such groups with their own things to rant about, what never seems to change is that they can all agree to rant about Jagex. Honestly, if anything will get me to quit this game more than the bugs, macros, and Jagex's controversy handling flops, it's the general negative and unreasonable attitude that now permeates so many players. Sure, people have always hated Jagex, but not like this... Newb's post shows it's possible for a player community to coexist peacefully with the game's creators and not blame them for everything under the sun. I'm betting Jagex and its representatives were once generally liked by the players, or there's no way the game could have grown as popular as it has. But nowadays, it's okay for people to blame Jagex for whatever they like. Find a glitch? Abuse as much as you like, it's entirely their fault.

Don't think I'm placing any sort of unreasonable blame on players. Clicking a penguin twice can be a legitimate accident. Clicking it half a thousand times is not, and does not entail you to rant when you are banned for bug abuse. Jagex employees may have goofed up, and should be held somewhat responsible, but they do not become the sponge that absolves all players of their own responsibility.

 

[/rant] :mellow:

 

A very intelligent post, took the words out of my mouth and put them in a way that I couldn't. You have hit the nail on the head, and very relevant for you to reference Sony. In the case of the game I play, it just so happens to be on the Ps3. The game is an online-only game, so I would be shut off from it completely if I was still as addicted to it as I was for over a year, kicked the habit over a month ago, though! Anyway, needless to say...People shouldn't be laying the blame on Sony, but those who have crippled their system from the outside. I'm unable to play that game entirely, now. But I can't blame Sony for that, because it was working until people set out to find a problem. It's the exact same as RuneScape. There really is no legitimate excuse to lay blame on Jagex for everything. After all, in many cases mistakes can and do happen. "Oh, but Jagex is a company!" Yes, that they are, but one comprised of humans...And humans do make mistakes. And most of the time it's not even down to a mistake, just down to one thing working fine on its own but kicking out an error when combined with something else, unknowingly.

 

As Andrew has stated before, it takes weeks for the QA team to test content, they are testing things which will of course cause the most problems. Something ever so small could slip by, but once released into the public the sheer mass of players testing out the new content at once amounts to what would be years of QA testing. Players are able to trample on every aspect of that content, and shoud they find something to not be right....Jagex have supplied them with a nifty little Bug Report form....and forum, at that. It's time for the players to take responsibility for their own actions, and respect and appreciate what Jagex have given them. They don't spend weeks and months creating content half-assed with the intentions to get something wrong or overlook a piece of it...Things happen, and people have to allow for that in their judgement.

 

I pity those who play the blame game every update, without taking a look a themselves and those they play with.

 

I'm betting Jagex and its representatives were once generally liked by the players, or there's no way the game could have grown as popular as it has.

 

This would have been the case I'm sure in the beginning, when people actually appreciated things given to them, in many cases, free. People have just lost respect over the years, and not just towards Jagex...Towards everyone. Can't just put it down to...people will be people...because there are still level-headed individuals around here with the cop on and respect that this place lacks. Look around.

[Alphanos]

^

I think Jagex should patch things BEFORE they happen. The DDOS thing is something I agree Jagex tried and failed [understandable really]. However other things such as BA blood runes glitch is a perfect example of Jagex not having proper quality assurance to prevent things from happening.

 

 

Bug abusers are like lawyers to me. Lawyers may be able to get a caught with the bloody knife in his hand murderer and get him off scott free. What that does is make police have to work harder and get more evidence - making more certainty on the murderer next time and decreasing the chance of wrongful imprisonments.

 

A bug abuser does the same thing but with codes. If people didnt abuse bugs imagine how crappy the code would be. Abusing a bug forces Jagex to fix a code and fix everything around a bug to stop and not allow new ones to go through - forced quality assurance. Even Cheesy getting hacked is a good thing, it forced Jagex to fix their recover account code making EVERYONES accounts safer.

 

A better example would be criminals vs penetration testers. A penetration tester attempts to find bugs through exploiting coding issues, etc, for the purpose of reporting bugs and having them fixed. A criminal breaks into things for personal gain. Basically any bug abusers posting on youtube are much closer to criminals than to benevolent helpers.

 

 

This is pretty far off topic now, but I'd just like to reassure everyone that you won't get banned for abusing this. BCEL bots that have been running since the start of the game work by modifying the client, and they've never been banned due to that.

 

(inb4botter)

 

This is misleading. You may very well be right to say that many people use modified clients without getting banned. However, it would be foolish to conclude that you can't get banned for running a modified client - the TOS clearly states that you can. Basically Jagex has not considered it worth their time to extensively clean up modified clients up to this point, since relatively little can be done with them.

 

For example, if people succeed in getting modified clients to load larger map areas and display such large areas zoomed out, this could easily increase server load and crash them. At that point, Jagex would find it very worthwhile to detect and stop modified clients, and most likely many who never crashed a server would be banned along with those few who did.

[brunokiller]

To be honest they are so stupid when they try to fix bugs...

[Markup]

This is pretty far off topic now, but I'd just like to reassure everyone that you won't get banned for abusing this. BCEL bots that have been running since the start of the game work by modifying the client, and they've never been banned due to that.

 

(inb4botter)

 

no.

[Wkw]

What is a BCE bot?

[Urbex]

What is a BCE bot?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_Code_Engineering_Library

The majority of bots use this.

[Alpaca_Toast]

That's pretty crazy. How do people figure out stuff like that. :P