"Loafing" in Minigames

[GuidesForScapers]

Everyone has a problem with things they are to stupid to do.

 

Errm...not only is your post horribly ironic but I'm having a very difficult time understanding your point of view.

 

How exactly is this behavior 'stupid'?

I meant that if you do anything a different way to how it is 'supposed' to be done, you will be criticised for it. Regardless of how legit, efficient or fun it is.

[MightyMuddy]

I'd rather you bot than leech. At least that way im getting helped out in some way.

[Dietrich]

I thought the people going for Comp(T) were joining games with 5 min left...

Skipped over or ignored?

I believe someone said you could get 5+ games per hour towards the req just doing this.

And I think this is what those who are actually trying to get Comp(T) are doing.

Neither - I didn't see it at the time, I suppose.

I can't say that I've ever heard of something like that. Is it similar to Runite Mining?

 

 

Doing nothing and getting rewarded in return shouldn't happen. People wish to do nothing and get something in return. In this instance, you my friend, are one of those people. I remember when people played castlewars for enjoyment, and not for it's rewards. Why? Because the rewards sucked. But it was still a classic, and fun minigame. So it retained a good amount of players who actually enjoyed it.

 

But adding these new rewards have just encouraged people to be lazy in order to obtain them.

Exactly what "rewards" am I getting for free? I'm only loafing at Castle Wars to increase the number of games I've played; I've no interest in tickets or any of Lanthus' rewards. And yes, I've enjoyed playing the occasional CW game with some of my friends in the past, but this is completely different. The trimmed Completionist Cape requires an absurd number of games played (5000), which can only reached by most players through grinding Castle Wars. Let me tell you - grinding isn't fun, no matter what it is.

 

"Don't hate the player; hate the game." I wouldn't be loafing at Castle Wars if Jagex hadn't decided to include this unreasonable requirement for the cape, and I'm sure it's the same for most of the other high-level loafers you can commonly find at CW these days.

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[hide=Serena_Myr's Post]

The OP's argument about consequences is dangerous. Ethics based on consequences is foolish, and is a very poor system of understanding morality. Ethics has nothing to do with what is, but rather, what actions we ought perform. A system of ethics based on the concept that something is ok, because no one has enforced the law is wrong. Many things are known to be ethically wrong, but are not enforced or are unenforceable. But that doesn't make them any less different. (We can debate the various good systems of ethics, but this assumes something that the general systems say is wrong). For example, lets say we lived in a society where the legal rule was to slaughter our firstborn to appease the "Gods". We know this is ethically wrong, and ought to be the case, regardless of the legal rules and punishments set up to make us to the other.

 

the "everyone will do it this way" is not a valid moral argument either, because morality and ethics are not about what is, but about what ought to be. Murder, theft, adultary, lying, and so forth happen despite the fact that we know they are not morally ok. But we don't decide to believe they are ok just because people do them. Neither are the "wrong" simply because people are punished for doing them.

 

Also, the OP argues based on his/her own goals being ruined, which leads to egocentric ethics ( a system of ethics I disagree with..)

 

However, just because the argument is flawed does not mean the OP's outcome is incorrect. In the case of CastleWars (some of this is my opinion and not based very strong in ethics): Loafing does not tend to ruin my experience of the game, because they a) don't get in the way of me having fun, b) don't tend to have a large impact on which team wins. (because even if they were "participating", they may not provide that much impact on who wins anyways). and c) their presence doesn't change the effort required by the other players. The only flaw is when far more people loaf on one team than the other. However, most loafers choose to go to random teams, and therefor get spread more evenly across the teams. This means that on average the impact is minimal.

 

For other minigames, loafing actively minimizes rewards for other teammembers, (DG, PC, SW etc), and therefore is completely wrong.

 

I don't like trying to apply a general "moral rule" because these rules cannot be made to apply in every situation. The big difference between the "work" and the "game" scenario, is this: 2 people working on a project, and one person does nothing, effectively the other person must double their efforts to get reward. In castlewars, this is no where near the case, so the situations are not at all the same.

[/hide]

To be perfectly honest, you're reading much too far into this. I've already said in a previous post that I don't consider this to be a moral issue, and it certainly isn't so complex, either. Players who wish to one day obtain the Completionist Cape (t) must dedicate months and months of playtime grinding Castle Wars games. The requirement is not to win games or collect a certain number of tickets, but to simply be in 5000 games. Now, these players can choose to either actively participate in the game or do nothing at all. They'll have accomplished their goal once they've been in 5k games regardless, so bear in mind that this choice is largely inconsequential; it's simply to decide how they spend their time while they wait. If they decide to loaf, then they'll also be able to effectively multi-task and relax at the same time (e.g. reading/watching videos/listening to music/completing homework/doing other computer work). If, however, they decide to actively participate in all of the Castle Wars games, then they'll probably have to concentrate on just that - making the grinding much worse.

 

I understand that deciding to loaf can inconvenience other players involved in the game in some circumstances (although this is debatable). Egocentric? Perhaps. Are you really surprised at this? Most humans are not altruistic, you know, but this doesn't mean that we're monsters. Allow me to direct you to this previous quote of mine:

I am a fairly charitable person, but there is a limit to my generosity, just as there is for everyone. For example, I would gladly accept in most cases if a new player asks me to escort them to a particular city in RS, however, I would not be willing to accommodate them (with all due respect) if someone asks me to take them on a tour of every major city in the game. In the same way, if the Comp (t) requirement was only 1k games, I would most likely oblige my CW teammates' wishes and try to win the games for them, even though I do not personally care whether I win or lose.

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I just don't think people should do it.

Believe me, I don't enjoy doing it. Castle Wars was never my favourite minigame, and having to grind it now isn't helping to change my opinion, hahah. It just so happens that loafing makes meeting the requirement much more tolerable, which is why many high-level players are loafing now.

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I'm just surprised that in all the time you spent doing nothing, you never thought about any kind of alternate solution that wouldn't annoy the hell out of your teammates, regardless of any kind of actual or imagined damage being done or how much you just didn't care about it, while being convenient for everybody.

It is entirely possible that there are small, private groups out there loafing in unpopulated worlds. After all, I can only speak for myself, my friends, and a handful of other loafers I've become acquainted with while in Castle Wars. I find it unlikely that such groups are formed on the RSOF, though. While I personally would head there to form a team if I were forced to, that is because most of my friends have long since retired, and I don't belong to any elite/high-level clans. Hence, I do not have easy access to a large pool of maxed players looking to obtain the Completionist Cape (t). Because of this, I continue to use the designated worlds, as it is much simpler than forming/maintaining a team.

 

I like to think that the majority of the players pissed off at me for loafing ingame are just uninformed. Most of them insist and try to accuse me of macroing or loafing for free tickets, when that isn't the case at all. I suppose that these players could just be a vocal minority, but again, I like to think that only the players who are actually pissed off would even bother trying to start an argument with me ingame.

 

Oh, and I think the numerous amounts of reports occurring from these incidents are probably annoying the hell out of the people who have to sort through them, so, hey, maybe there is something wrong happening here.

IMHO, Jagex has brought it upon themselves. And yes, I do think there is something wrong here - namely, that anyone who wants the Comp (t) someday will have to mindlessly grind Castle Wars games for several months, and that the players currently doing so are often harassed and falsely reported.

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First, it's like you're adopting an attitude that this high end reward should be obtainable to anyone, or that you deserve it by time commitment alone. While at first that seems possible, it really isn't. It really should be given to only those players who are truly dedicated, and taking the easy way out isn't dedication at all. To quote yourself, "I simply do not have the energy and focus to dedicate myself wholly to each of the 5k Castle Wars games", but I'm going to claim the rewards as if I did put all my effort into every game. Certainly, you can't be expected to put 100% effort into every game, but to put 0% effort into every game is, simply put, appalling in my eyes. You said that if the requirement were only 1k games, you WOULD put effort in. And furthermore you seem to emphasize that you're doing what you are doing to help yourself. I think this is the center of the disagreement. The logistics (# of CW games) and motives (you playing just for your Ccape) should have NOTHING to do with how you behave in the game. As it is a team game, if you are not part of the team and actively supporting it, you should not be playing. Am I wrong? This is why I drew the comparison to Dungeoneering. There are a million things wrong with loafing in DG, and you're right that it's not exactly the same as CW, but strip away all the exterior differences and you'll find both are exactly the same. You enter the game under full knowledge that you are supposed to support your team, and that your team is supposed to support you. And while you're in the game, you actively and consciously forsake that premise for your own personal gain.

No, I believe that only the players who can meet the requirements listed here under the Completionist Cape section should be able to obtain the cape, not that just "anyone" should. And yes, I do not have the energy or patience to dedicate myself entirely to each and every game, so it's a good thing that the requirement says nothing about having to do so. I said that I would do so if the number of required games was more reasonable, but that would be for the sake of my teammates only (since I am a charitable - but not altruistic - person). It is a team game, yes, but that doesn't somehow mean that everyone should be required to strive for victory and give it their all, no. I disagree about Castle Wars and Dungeoneering being fundamentally the same, by the way, except for the fact that you happen to have teammates in both instances. You seem to think that there are unwritten rules which demand everyone to participate and sacrifice of themselves in team activities, but I don't see them; there are plenty of non-loafers who still don't manage to accomplish much of anything in both CW and DG, after all (think: players who run out and uselessly/randomly fight outside of the castles in CW and players who do unnecessary skilling or clear out dead-ends in DG).

 

Secondly, generosity and charity have nothing to do with this either. If you are on a sports team, and you decide to play a position in a game, is it a common practice for everyone on the team to get down on their knees and thank you? No, as a team sport, you are expected to help, not asked. In the same way, but consciously joining a team game, you are expected to be part of the team. I'd like to know what makes you think you can agree to such terms when you join, but then remove yourself later so you can be lazy.

I really don't see the bonds between teammates as anything sacred or even special. Growing up, I participated in many sports and joined several different teams throughout the years, but not everyone dedicated themselves entirely to the well-being of the team; there were always people who either just lacked interest or were forced by their parents to join a sports team. In the same way, I feel that I'm being forced into grinding Castle Wars games by Jagex, so I hope you can understand why I'm not exactly enthusiastic concerning it all. I never begrudged my disinterested teammates in the past - rather, I worked harder myself. This is probably a key difference between us.

 

I don't expect or want for anyone to "get down on their knees and thank [me]". I only mentioned generosity because I am required to do nothing in the first place, and because actively participating, while possibly helpful to my teammates, is of no benefit to me. Therefore, anything that I do to help is due to my generosity, since taking action requires some small sacrifice on my part.

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I'd rather you bot than leech. At least that way im getting helped out in some way.

-sigh-

I don't mean to offend you, but I find that attitude to be incredibly selfish. It's funny in a way, as I'm often accused of being selfish for loafing, but preferring that someone break the rules rather than loaf so that you are personally benefited?

[Patr1ck]

The smart one's afk, while the stupid mindlessly play. You can only save the void knight so much. Maybe if minigame's were more instanced, changing, and challenging, but no, they are all the same repetitive thing.

[GuidesForScapers]

The smart one's afk, while the stupid mindlessly play. You can only save the void knight so much. Maybe if minigame's were more instanced, changing, and challenging, but no, they are all the same repetitive thing.

This.

 

Also this:

[MightyMuddy]

I'd rather you bot than leech. At least that way im getting helped out in some way.

-sigh-

I don't mean to offend you, but I find that attitude to be incredibly selfish. It's funny in a way, as I'm often accused of being selfish for loafing, but preferring that someone break the rules rather than loaf so that you are personally benefited?

None taken, I can see where your coming from but at the same time I think your being more selfish than I am. You don't help the team at all yet you share the same reward as the team. You put in about as much effort as the botter, yet the botter acctually makes it slightly easier on the rest of us. You however offer nothing and just rely on the rest of us to put alll the work in. Ideally you would help us, but as you seem unwilling to do so I would acctually rather you do cheat and bot to help the team out. But you probably don't want to risk your account or stick to some moral that you have.

 

"The problem is that my fellow loafers and I are almost constantly barraged with hate and suspicion; it happens virtually every game. Our teammates accuse us of macroing and dragging down the rest of the team, and while I typically try to respond, it doesn't seem to do much good. I've been wondering if I should simply ignore them, but I suppose that would just cause me to be reported more often."

 

To be completley honest I don't see why you don't see where people are coming from when they're angry/fustrated with you and accuse you for being selfish. Not that I care a lot about how many castle wars tickets I get but I can understand why people would get angry when they really want tickets and are trying thier hardest to get them but they end up losing the game. Not because they didn't put in the effort but because some of the team just cbf helping him out.

 

Oh and on a related note, I was playing castle wars a while ago and I saw Castle wars loafing on the enemy team. Nearly killed him but half way through he decided to walk down a ladder and I didn't bother following him because I was after the flag and didn't realise who he was.

[The_Fray]

The smart one's afk, while the stupid mindlessly play. You can only save the void knight so much. Maybe if minigame's were more instanced, changing, and challenging, but no, they are all the same repetitive thing.

Wrong, many of us are fans of these minigames. I would say the people that afk are the "stupid" ones because Jagex is not forcing them into playing these minigames. I do not understand why anyone would afk an activity they do not enjoy. Why not go and do something else...

[britonlongbow]

If you want to see how loafing fails, just look back through history. You can compare it to just about any socialist economy. A scenario where groups of people are giving amounts of varying amounts of effort/work that but all are given the same reward. This kind of scenario will eventually lead to a " why am I working my butt off" moment. More and more people will eventually defect to the loafers, ultimately leading to frequent failure. When this attitude is not only being accepted but also condoned I think there are some serious problems with the RS community.

 

Also I don't understand the double standard in terms of loafers in most minigames and loafers in Dungeoneering. The same principles apply (barring a lever or mime room) yet loafers are despised and swiftly kicked from dung teams.

[Youmu]

The smart one's afk, while the stupid mindlessly play. You can only save the void knight so much. Maybe if minigame's were more instanced, changing, and challenging, but no, they are all the same repetitive thing.

Or maybe it's because people actually WANT to play said minigames? You are saying that instead of actively contributing to minigames you want them to die off and basically be a swarm of mindless bots/afkers instead. How the heck are you supposed to enjoy the minigames if other people don't want others to enjoy it?

 

You can say the same thing for skilling too, yet so many more people do skilling.

[Dietrich]

None taken, I can see where your coming from but at the same time I think your being more selfish than I am. You don't help the team at all yet you share the same reward as the team. You put in about as much effort as the botter, yet the botter acctually makes it slightly easier on the rest of us. You however offer nothing and just rely on the rest of us to put alll the work in. Ideally you would help us, but as you seem unwilling to do so I would acctually rather you do cheat and bot to help the team out. But you probably don't want to risk your account or stick to some moral that you have.

I've said it before, but the tickets awarded at the end of each game mean nothing to me. I will never spend them, as I already own the only Castle Wars item I was ever interested in (a Guthix Halo - bought on the first day it was released). I do not rely on the rest of the team for anything; what they do throughout the course of each game is of no consequence to me. I could help the rest of the team accomplish their goal of winning, despite not sharing that same goal myself, but I have my reasons (which I've already explained a number of times, by the way). --> In short, loafing makes the grind much more tolerable, and since I'll have to grind Castle Wars games for several more months, this makes for a very attractive option.

 

And you are correct in that I would never even consider cheating.

 

To be completley honest I don't see why you don't see where people are coming from when they're angry/fustrated with you and accuse you for being selfish. Not that I care a lot about how many castle wars tickets I get but I can understand why people would get angry when they really want tickets and are trying thier hardest to get them but they end up losing the game. Not because they didn't put in the effort but because some of the team just cbf helping him out.

No, I do understand why it would be frustrating for them - the bit I have trouble with is why they then decide to harass and falsely report me. It happens all the time, and seems like a gross overreaction to me, TBH.

 

Oh and on a related note, I was playing castle wars a while ago and I saw Castle wars loafing on the enemy team. Nearly killed him but half way through he decided to walk down a ladder and I didn't bother following him because I was after the flag and didn't realise who he was.

Yeah, he doesn't talk much and pays very little attention to the game. Hahah.

AFAIK, he still loafs at Castle Wars because he wants to be #1 on the CW hiscores. It seems like a waste of time to me (especially considering how far ahead the frontrunner is), but I suppose when you have the Completionist Cape (t), there just isn't much left for you to do in RS anymore. :lol:

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I do not understand why anyone would afk an activity they do not enjoy. Why not go and do something else...

Have you ever done anything in RS which you didn't particularly enjoy, but did it anyway to accomplish one of your goals? Perhaps trained a skill you disliked or completed a boring quest? It's the same case for the loafers at Castle Wars, who are only there because they want to someday obtain the Comp (t).

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If you want to see how loafing fails, just look back through history. You can compare it to just about any socialist economy. A scenario where groups of people are giving amounts of varying amounts of effort/work that but all are given the same reward. This kind of scenario will eventually lead to a " why am I working my butt off" moment. More and more people will eventually defect to the loafers, ultimately leading to frequent failure.

Loafing works quite well, actually, which is why players are doing it. The analogy you're trying to make doesn't work very well here, however. IRL, if people don't contribute to society, then they literally are dragging down their fellow citizens, since the freeloaders continue consuming resources while giving nothing back. Loafers in Castle Wars, however, neither contribute towards nor hinder their team. You can try to argue that they take up space which might otherwise be filled by active participants, but it's already been established in this thread that whether or not this significantly impacts the game is debatable at best. After all, there tends to be a roughly equal number of loafers on each team every game, so it usually balances out. You also have to consider that not all players participating in the games are actually making much more of a difference than the loafers; low-level players and players who fight random battles away from the castles typically make up this group.

 

Will more and more players become loafers until there are almost no "legitimate" players left? I can confidently say "no" to this. Castle Wars tickets aren't enough of an incentive for that to happen, and there will always be people who continue playing Castle Wars simply because they enjoy it. Remember, I and many others are not loafing at Castle Wars for tickets, but rather to meet the requirement for the Completionist Cape (t). The vast majority of RS players are in no position to even make an attempt at obtaining the cape, so I don't believe you have any reason to worry over whether this issue will snowball out of control.

 

Also I don't understand the double standard in terms of loafers in most minigames and loafers in Dungeoneering. The same principles apply (barring a lever or mime room) yet loafers are despised and swiftly kicked from dung teams.

I mentioned it previously, but Castle Wars shares very little in common with Dungeoneering. If even one person in a DG party tries to leech, then the party's speed/effectiveness is quite drastically reduced, and even more problems can arise as a result of that. There is an emphasis in Dungeoneering on maximising your experience while minimising the time spent on a floor, and I imagine that is the primary reason why freeloaders are despised in DG. Castle Wars just isn't the same in that respect.

[kidsman99]

I have a question for the OP. If you were able to choose (which you aren't of course, but taken the thought that you were able to), would you prefer the requirement of the Ccape to be 'participating in 5k Castle wars games' or have it be, say, 'Win 2.5k Castle wars games'? In general, people will prefer option A, because less efford is required, only more time is required. You call option A an absurd requirement, but if Jagex had picked option B, the general crowd would have considered the requirement even more crazy, even though less time is required. You should be happy that Jagex has given you a requirement which is AFK-able, but don't take advantage by AFKing it fully. Put some effort in, show the creators of the minigame you are thankfull for the requirement being made relatively easy by playing the game it is supposed to be played, instead of finding the loopholes in any of the requirements or possibilities they give you.

 

They make this game while having a view of how the game should be played, and playing the game by not playing the game is a disrespectful way of showing 'gratitude' to it's creators. They don't HAVE to do anything for you, they could quite possibly also just agree to get rid of the Ccape in a couple of months. If they do, they don't need to apologise about it either, because it's their game. It's all about giving and taking both equally, only that way we can keep everyone happy. Don't blame your loafing on somebody else's actions (in this case, blaming jagex for the requirement), but instead, play the game at least partially and be happy you aren't required to actually win, because that would make the requirement much much harder.

[swordb88]

if your going to play, then play.

 

loafing infuriates me.

 

get off rs kid

[Zephyrs]

if your going to play, then play.

 

loafing infuriates me.

 

get off rs kid

 

This summarizes my feelings on the subject. While I do believe that all players have the right to play as they choose (within the rules), loafing is just plain disrespect to all players involved.

 

Loafers, in large enough numbers, can be a burden on teams and cause teams to have a disadvantage. Take Castle Wars, for example. There are two teams, blue and red. Let's say the workers to loafers ratio of the blue team is about 1:1, and the workers to loafers ratio of the red team is about 1:4. Let's also assume that both the blue and red teams have an equal number of players. In this situation, the blue team has more workers than the red team. While the red team's workers may be more skilled than the blue team's, the red team's workers are outnumbered, decreasing the red team's chance of victory. This is an extreme example, but I have seen something very similar to this happen before.

 

Loafers can also take up "legitimate" team spots. This time, let's take a look at Soul Wars. In Soul Wars, both teams have about an equal number of players. Players who wish to enter the current game must wait in a lobby. Some of those waiting players truly want to play and have fun, while the loafers already in that game are just taking up space, doing practically nothing. The only time loafers do something in Soul Wars is to increase the Activity Bar when it runs low... Long story short, loafers can keep legitimate players out of the game.

 

However, my biggest issue about loafers is the fact that loafers do nothing and yet get rewards. I could stand around in Castle Wars games until I have enough tickets to get whatever reward I desire, but isn't that reward unfairly earned? Hard-working players get tickets at the same rate as loafers, only the hard-working players (arguably) deserve that same reward more.

[Pinata]

People keep saying loafers, don't get any rewards, but when in fact they get games towards a completionist cape trim. >.>

 

So saying loafers don't care about winning may be true, but even if they lose they still get rewarded. It's like botting, no effort at all and in the end you still get your achievement, but what should I care when half the community supports loafing/botting.

 

I can already picture it, two lvl 138s following "dancing" in the castle named ilymolly and ilyjohn not paying attention to the level 124 running past them with the team flag, because they're so in love over rs to notice. yet they're wearing full bandos, and all their rich showy off gear. >.>

[Dietrich]

[hide='Kidsman99's Post]

I have a question for the OP. If you were able to choose (which you aren't of course, but taken the thought that you were able to), would you prefer the requirement of the Ccape to be 'participating in 5k Castle wars games' or have it be, say, 'Win 2.5k Castle wars games'? In general, people will prefer option A, because less efford is required, only more time is required. You call option A an absurd requirement, but if Jagex had picked option B, the general crowd would have considered the requirement even more crazy, even though less time is required. You should be happy that Jagex has given you a requirement which is AFK-able, but don't take advantage by AFKing it fully. Put some effort in, show the creators of the minigame you are thankfull for the requirement being made relatively easy by playing the game it is supposed to be played, instead of finding the loopholes in any of the requirements or possibilities they give you.

 

They make this game while having a view of how the game should be played, and playing the game by not playing the game is a disrespectful way of showing 'gratitude' to it's creators. They don't HAVE to do anything for you, they could quite possibly also just agree to get rid of the Ccape in a couple of months. If they do, they don't need to apologise about it either, because it's their game. It's all about giving and taking both equally, only that way we can keep everyone happy. Don't blame your loafing on somebody else's actions (in this case, blaming jagex for the requirement), but instead, play the game at least partially and be happy you aren't required to actually win, because that would make the requirement much much harder.

[/hide]

You're saying I should be grateful to Jagex for deciding to "only" require 5000 Castle Wars games, since they could have made the requirement much more difficult...? No disrespect intended, but that is a terrible argument if I've ever seen one. I hope I'm misinterpreting your meaning, and please correct me if I am. :blink:

 

Let's do a bit of math: 5000 games multiplied by 25 minutes per game = 125000 minutes or approximately 87 straight days spent playing Castle Wars. Is this not ridiculous? I don't believe most Skills even require that much time to be leveled from 1-99 by experienced players. After reading this, can you honestly tell me that requiring players to dedicate that much time to a single minigame is reasonable? And yet you say I should be grateful... It truly is funny in a depressing sort of way.

 

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but after reading your post, you strike me as the type of person who considers Jagex (as the game developer) to be infallible. You don't necessarily have to take my word for it, but that can't be farther from the truth. And to answer your question (at least in part), I believe requiring 500 games would have been ideal. Sorry, but I'm not interested in answering/arguing over hypothetical questions, so I've just given you my opinion on what the requirement should have been.

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get off rs kid

If you want to be taken seriously, then you should stop being childish and disrespectful. Stay civil, and I will be happy to write a proper response to your post.

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Loafers, in large enough numbers, can be a burden on teams and cause teams to have a disadvantage. Take Castle Wars, for example. There are two teams, blue and red. Let's say the workers to loafers ratio of the blue team is about 1:1, and the workers to loafers ratio of the red team is about 1:4. Let's also assume that both the blue and red teams have an equal number of players. In this situation, the blue team has more workers than the red team. While the red team's workers may be more skilled than the blue team's, the red team's workers are outnumbered, decreasing the red team's chance of victory. This is an extreme example, but I have seen something very similar to this happen before.

I realise that you were speaking hypothetically, but let's be realistic here: your estimates are way off the mark. Only a small fraction of Castle Wars players loaf, and the ratios between active and inactive players on each team are very, very rarely that skewed (I've never seen anything close to something like your example, personally). You admit that it's an extreme example... so why use it then unless you intended to blow the actual situation out of proportion? :mellow: Sorry, but I simply do not believe you when you say that "[you] have seen something very similar to this happen before". I have a great deal of first-hand experience/knowledge in this matter, and what you said does not at all seem accurate to me. Feel free to disagree, if you wish.

 

Loafers can also take up "legitimate" team spots. This time, let's take a look at Soul Wars. In Soul Wars, both teams have about an equal number of players. Players who wish to enter the current game must wait in a lobby. Some of those waiting players truly want to play and have fun, while the loafers already in that game are just taking up space, doing practically nothing. The only time loafers do something in Soul Wars is to increase the Activity Bar when it runs low... Long story short, loafers can keep legitimate players out of the game.

Like I said in the OP, I don't know much about loafing in Soul Wars, as I've never done it myself. However, that is not the case in Castle Wars, where every player in the waiting rooms are sent into the arena at the start of each game. If you weren't addressing me when you wrote this, then you have my apologies.

 

However, my biggest issue about loafers is the fact that loafers do nothing and yet get rewards. I could stand around in Castle Wars games until I have enough tickets to get whatever reward I desire, but isn't that reward unfairly earned? Hard-working players get tickets at the same rate as loafers, only the hard-working players (arguably) deserve that same reward more.

The Completionist Cape (t) loafers couldn't care less about the tickets, for the most part. They're only loafing at CW to meet the cape requirement - nothing more, nothing less. While I'm sure there probably are loafers who do it strictly for tickets, I'd imagine that they are very few in number. After all, none of the reward items are particularly useful or impressive outside of Castle Wars itself, so I kind of see it as a waste of their time, TBH.

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People keep saying loafers, don't get any rewards, but when in fact they get games towards a completionist cape trim. >.>

 

So saying loafers don't care about winning may be true, but even if they lose they still get rewarded. It's like botting, no effort at all and in the end you still get your achievement, but what should I care when half the community supports loafing/botting.

You consider the increase in number of games one has played to be a form of reward in itself? :blink: That is certainly an interesting thought, I'll grant you, but not one that I can bring myself to agree with. When I think of minigame rewards, only actual reward items and various forms of currency with which to buy rewards come to mind, in all honesty. And there's still the fact that the Comp (t) requirement doesn't specify how players are "supposed" to play each Castle Wars game. Hmmm.

 

Kudos for bringing this point up, though. :thumbup: I'll have to consider this more closely.

[The_Fray]

I do not understand why anyone would afk an activity they do not enjoy. Why not go and do something else...

Have you ever done anything in RS which you didn't particularly enjoy, but did it anyway to accomplish one of your goals? Perhaps trained a skill you disliked or completed a boring quest? It's the same case for the loafers at Castle Wars, who are only there because they want to someday obtain the Comp (t).

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Yes I have done activities that I did not like but I did not afk them. I have no problem with loafers personally but I simply do not understand why anyone would afk. If the activity is so boring that you have to afk then why do it in the first place. Maybe I am just not an afk type of person. I like to enjoy the game than chase after achievements by afking. But that is just the way I play, I do not want to impose my playing style on them.

[MightyMuddy]

None taken, I can see where your coming from but at the same time I think your being more selfish than I am. You don't help the team at all yet you share the same reward as the team. You put in about as much effort as the botter, yet the botter acctually makes it slightly easier on the rest of us. You however offer nothing and just rely on the rest of us to put alll the work in. Ideally you would help us, but as you seem unwilling to do so I would acctually rather you do cheat and bot to help the team out. But you probably don't want to risk your account or stick to some moral that you have.

I've said it before, but the tickets awarded at the end of each game mean nothing to me. I will never spend them, as I already own the only Castle Wars item I was ever interested in (a Guthix Halo - bought on the first day it was released). I do not rely on the rest of the team for anything; what they do throughout the course of each game is of no consequence to me. I could help the rest of the team accomplish their goal of winning, despite not sharing that same goal myself, but I have my reasons (which I've already explained a number of times, by the way). --> In short, loafing makes the grind much more tolerable, and since I'll have to grind Castle Wars games for several more months, this makes for a very attractive option.

 

And you are correct in that I would never even consider cheating.That applies to castle wars though, but what about the rest of the mini games, in particular soul wars. Surley you care about the zeal? And anyway I doubt all loafers are in the same situation you are.

 

To be completley honest I don't see why you don't see where people are coming from when they're angry/fustrated with you and accuse you for being selfish. Not that I care a lot about how many castle wars tickets I get but I can understand why people would get angry when they really want tickets and are trying thier hardest to get them but they end up losing the game. Not because they didn't put in the effort but because some of the team just cbf helping him out.

No, I do understand why it would be frustrating for them - the bit I have trouble with is why they then decide to harass and falsely report me. It happens all the time, and seems like a gross overreaction to me, TBH.

I don't blame them, people are [wagon] on the internet, and I don't think a lot of them would like you to get credit for thier hardwork when in all probability they don't like you.

Oh and on a related note, I was playing castle wars a while ago and I saw Castle wars loafing on the enemy team. Nearly killed him but half way through he decided to walk down a ladder and I didn't bother following him because I was after the flag and didn't realise who he was.

Yeah, he doesn't talk much and pays very little attention to the game. Hahah.

AFAIK, he still loafs at Castle Wars because he wants to be #1 on the CW hiscores. It seems like a waste of time to me (especially considering how far ahead the frontrunner is), but I suppose when you have the Completionist Cape (t), there just isn't much left for you to do in RS anymore. :lol:

Just wondering, with the limited ammount of thread that I have read, what mini games do you leech in?

[z0diark]

This is interesting. It made me think about whether I'd prefer for a loafer to stack in CW or not. On the one hand I'd be annoyed some random idiot is getting rewards for doing nothing but on the other, one more afker on the stacked team means a greater chance of someone decent getting on the other team and an antistack comeback (which is always the preferred outcome IMO). In general I think if you're afk then why even bother being logged in? If you don't enjoy playing the minigame then dont play it. Who cares if it means you won't have the requirements for a cape you'll probably never get anyway?

[la la la]

if your going to play, then play.

 

loafing infuriates me.

 

get off rs kid

kid son

 

Let's see... if I'm going for 5000 cw games, I can loaf for 5000 games or try really hard for 5000 games. It takes the same amount of time.

 

If someone is loafing in my DG clan or pc team, it can significantly slow me down, hurting my end goal.

 

I don't care about any of the randoms in runescape, as most of them are idiotic sheep, and I'll never interact with them, so why would I waste my time and effort helping them win their petty cw games?

[Blutters]

if your going to play, then play.

 

loafing infuriates me.

 

get off rs kid

kid son

 

Let's see... if I'm going for 5000 cw games, I can loaf for 5000 games or try really hard for 5000 games. It takes the same amount of time.

 

If someone is loafing in my DG clan or pc team, it can significantly slow me down, hurting my end goal.

 

I don't care about any of the randoms in runescape, as most of them are idiotic sheep, and I'll never interact with them, so why would I waste my time and effort helping them win their petty cw games?

Are you being serious? I can't tell. If you are, you just showed yourself to be a huge hypocrit... And a pompous ass, but that may be irrelevant. I sure hope you aren't. I just saw you at the GE... :(

 

What if the "random"'s goal was to win CW tickets? Having a max combat player sitting there doing nothing hurts them, when, as you said, you could be helping in the same amount of time.

To put it into perspective with a metaphor, it's like someone using resources they had gathered themselves and calling it free, when they could have sold said resources instead, meaning they paid whatever the resources were worth in GP.

You're hurting them by doing nothing because the amount you could be doing might be significant.

And, for the record, if the people on your team watching you sit there could kick you, they would, I'm quite sure.

 

And, as I've said 2 or 3 times already, you can actively go for games, and by doing so, it will be far, far quicker! I'll be surprised if there isn't already a team monitoring the ends of CW games right now for this very purpose. I wish I could find the quote of that person saying they were counting 5-10 games an hour...

[la la la]

if your going to play, then play.

 

loafing infuriates me.

 

get off rs kid

kid son

 

Let's see... if I'm going for 5000 cw games, I can loaf for 5000 games or try really hard for 5000 games. It takes the same amount of time.

 

If someone is loafing in my DG clan or pc team, it can significantly slow me down, hurting my end goal.

 

I don't care about any of the randoms in runescape, as most of them are idiotic sheep, and I'll never interact with them, so why would I waste my time and effort helping them win their petty cw games?

Are you being serious? I can't tell. If you are, you just showed yourself to be a huge hypocrit... And a pompous ass, but that may be irrelevant. I sure hope you aren't. I just saw you at the GE... :(

 

What if the "random"'s goal was to win CW tickets? Having a max combat player sitting there doing nothing hurts them, when, as you said, you could be helping in the same amount of time.

To put it into perspective with a metaphor, it's like someone using resources they had gathered themselves and calling it free, when they could have sold said resources instead, meaning they paid whatever the resources were worth in GP.

You're hurting them by doing nothing because the amount you could be doing might be significant.

And, for the record, if the people on your team watching you sit there could kick you, they would, I'm quite sure.

 

And, as I've said 2 or 3 times already, you can actively go for games, and by doing so, it will be far, far quicker! I'll be surprised if there isn't already a team monitoring the ends of CW games right now for this very purpose. I wish I could find the quote of that person saying they were counting 5-10 games an hour...

Mechanics for getting into cw games get really messy. The teams have to be out of balance by at least 2, so you have to pick the right side and get a bit lucky. That is, unless there is a very organized effort involving paid/side accounts, which I haven't heard of.

 

I don't understand how it is pompous to value my time more highly than that of someone with whom I will never meet. Everyone does it; the only hypocrites are the ones who don't admit it.

[Blutters]

The way you phrased it sounded more like spiting them was your goal...

You said you hate people slacking in the activities you enjoy, and then defended your loafing in CW, which you'll have to do more than you would enjoy (I can't assume that you hate CW altogether...)

How is that not hypocrisy?

[Dietrich]

Yes I have done activities that I did not like but I did not afk them. I have no problem with loafers personally but I simply do not understand why anyone would afk. If the activity is so boring that you have to afk then why do it in the first place. Maybe I am just not an afk type of person. I like to enjoy the game than chase after achievements by afking. But that is just the way I play, I do not want to impose my playing style on them.

You've never afked in Runescape before? That seems kind of strange, actually. Afking (or at least semi-afking) is a very common method of making skill-grinding less tedious, especially when fishing, cooking, woodcutting, mining at lrc, smelting ore, or training combat against aggressive monsters (none of which require much input/attention from the player). If you really don't afk on occasion, then I believe that actually puts you in the minority of players, TBH.

 

So yes, afking makes grinding easier, and cutting down on the grind as much as possible is particularly important if your goal is a long-term one. I enjoy the game, by the way, even if I sometimes have to do thinks I dislike in order to accomplish my goals. I'm sure you can relate.

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That applies to castle wars though, but what about the rest of the mini games, in particular soul wars. Surley you care about the zeal? And anyway I doubt all loafers are in the same situation you are.

I had already maxed my melee skills when Soul Wars was released. I've probably played less than 10 SW games, so no, I don't care about zeal. Not all loafers are the same, sure, but I can only speak for myself and like-minded players. It'd be nice if someone who commonly loafs in another minigame would start posting in this thread; I think that'd make the debate more interesting.

 

I don't blame them, people are [wagon] on the internet, and I don't think a lot of them would like you to get credit for thier hardwork when in all probability they don't like you.

I don't necessarily blame them either; they're angry and taking it out on someone they think is responsible. It doesn't mean that they're any less misguided, though. I firmly believe that if anyone plans on interacting with other people on the internet, then they must learn how to control themselves and not openly wear their hearts on their sleeves. When I see someone become so outraged over an online game, I can't help but feel a little sorry for them, as they'll undoubtedly become easy victims of trolling if they continue browsing the Internet without safe-guarding their emotions.

 

Just wondering, with the limited ammount of thread that I have read, what mini games do you leech in?

Only Castle Wars, personally. I don't mind when people loaf in other minigames, though, even if I wouldn't do the same.

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Who cares if it means you won't have the requirements for a cape you'll probably never get anyway?

Well... I do? I'm really not too far away from it, so while I might need a few years, I believe I can eventually obtain the cape. Besides, I don't know about you, but when I set a goal for myself, I try to see it through to the end.

[la la la]

The way you phrased it sounded more like spiting them was your goal...

You said you hate people slacking in the activities you enjoy, and then defended your loafing in CW, which you'll have to do more than you would enjoy (I can't assume that you hate CW altogether...)

How is that not hypocrisy?

No, certain activities are selective, like dungeoneering. In a selective activity, we have the right to team up with whoever we please. In larger activities like cw, there is no selection system, other than hopping worlds. Because of this, everyone has the right to play as they please without having to worry much about being "deselected" from a team. Therefore, there's no real reason to succeed other than for personal gain.

 

Once you get into cw clans, this all changes... that's now what I'm talking about.

[Blutters]

The way you phrased it sounded more like spiting them was your goal...

You said you hate people slacking in the activities you enjoy, and then defended your loafing in CW, which you'll have to do more than you would enjoy (I can't assume that you hate CW altogether...)

How is that not hypocrisy?

No, certain activities are selective, like dungeoneering. In a selective activity, we have the right to team up with whoever we please. In larger activities like cw, there is no selection system, other than hopping worlds. Because of this, everyone has the right to play as they please without having to worry much about being "deselected" from a team. Therefore, there's no real reason to succeed other than for personal gain.

 

Once you get into cw clans, this all changes... that's now what I'm talking about.

You can personally be selective with CW too, though, without being in an actual CW clan. It would be easier for you and other "loafers", if you want to call yourself that, to simply join an unpopulated world. This would even be faster, as you wouldn't have to set your schedule around the end/start times of the theme worlds. AFAIK, worlds with no one in the waiting rooms will begin exactly 5 minutes after one person joins each team.

There really just seem to be a few compromises that would make those who actually want to play and those whom are only there for the Comp(T) requirement happy without requiring much more effort.