49 replies to this topic

[Racheya]

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

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[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

The ethics article was a pretty good read this week.

We don't stop to consider the ethics of what situation we're in, or how they affect us [even in minute ways]. Take for example, I was ordering some food for myself, my sister, brother-in-law, and the two nephews. The bill came out to $25, and I handed the cashier $30, and she gave me ~$25 in change.

The ethical thing to do would be to give back the money, which is exactly what I did - the cashier was extremely thankful - missing money out of a register could make you lose your job, jail time, or both.

Ethics in a video game is still a hotly contested issue that many of us struggle with. There's a difference between the kind of ethics I'm taught or I deal with on a daily basis (Software Engineering ethics, my GOD you've never seen hard ethics until you see the kind of stuff there), and the kind of ethics in a video game.

Back when I was a kid, I wanted Mew and Celebi, so I had used a Gameshark to get them. Was it ethical? Hell no. It also ultimately resulted in corrupting a 300+hr savefile.
Did I care? Hell no. I just wanted Mew and Celebi. I swore off the Gameshark after the save file was corrupted though, so I could say I learned a painful lesson.

It takes a bit of a quantum leap to go from ethics in real life, as we know them, to ethics of a video game. Now, I don't condone breaking the rules of a game, and I always favor playing fairly and responsibly with others in an online game, but many players just don't see the damage that being unethical in an online game can do to not only the value of the game, but also the community.

Thinking in terms of ethics, as well as thinking in terms of how it affects everyone that plays the game isn't something everyone can do. They'd either have to have learned a strong lesson in ethical issues, or be raised with them.

[Thus]

To be honest, I don't care if someone gets $4 in change instead of $3, or bots all their skills to 99, or cheats on a paper. Why? It doesn't affect me. I live by my own code of morals, and I don't expect anyone else to live by mine. As long as it does not directly cause me some sort of pain or suffering, I don't care. We all end up in the same place anyway: hell.

[kamykazee]

I couldn't abstain myself from posting in response to Sees_all's article:

It's funny you should give a few examples of your real life experiences on cheating. Mine have been very different in that cheating is very common here in school institutions and getting caught merely results in a warning. For example, if you get caught during an exam, they just tell you 'Don't do it anymore' and let you resume. Having said that, you can anticipate imy shock by the fact that students were kicked out simply because they didnt report the violation. I do have (or used to have) very strong views against cheating but when you're surrounded by it and all those around you succeed in secuing a good job despite (or perhaps because of) their cheating, it just makes you think 'what's the point in NOT cheating?'
The answer to that in real life could be that although you get through with cheating in such a permissive enviroment as the one i live in, when i will eventually come in contact with stricter rules i will most likely suffer dire consequences because of my years of cheating...maybe that's it.
What about the answer to that question when we're talking about a video game? Some would say that what makes it challenging and as a result fun to play is keeping a fair playing enviroment. Should there be any other reasons besides that in favour of NOT cheating? Besides all the ethics and the self satisfaction of achieving something for yourself, are there really any other sufficient reasons to avoid cheating, other than the fear of punishment?

[cultjunky]

Phats off to Kamikazee (sp? - you know who you are, lol)

All three parts of his history have been fantastic. I just need him to fast forward a few years so I can start saying 'ooh, I remember that'.

Well, done.

[Wessan]

First article has a lot of truth to it. Also, in terms of RS =/= school, the article says it all: If we cant practice ethics in the minor things, how can we do it when it is a big deal. This does equate to RS and Real Life. If you cant be ethical in a game, what makes you think that you will have the ability to discern ethical behavior in other situations?

Forever Runescape Part 3: Great again, I love reading them.

On the subject of the Melee Bias, I read it only to "know thy enemy". Not to say Necromagus is my enemy because he's not, but I am happy with the way RS is in terms of combat and I contend RS has always meant to be pro-melee. However, the Dev Blog on the new Mahjarrat quest states some new range/mage equipment, so Necromagus can be happy about that.

[kamykazee]

If you cant be ethical in a game, what makes you think that you will have the ability to discern ethical behavior in other situations?

I fear that by stating this we will be moving alot into philosophical territory, which could very well be beyond the scope of the article, but - what is so good about being ethical? Why is it a quality? People avoid being unethical (atleast in public) for fear of punishment, but if we cannot provide them with sufficient reason for them to truly be ethical, then how can we expect them to be?

[Wessan]

To be honest, I don't care if someone gets $4 in change instead of $3, or bots all their skills to 99, or cheats on a paper. Why? It doesn't affect me. I live by my own code of morals, and I don't expect anyone else to live by mine. As long as it does not directly cause me some sort of pain or suffering, I don't care. We all end up in the same place anyway: hell.

May be a double post but Im not on a good enough computer to edit my first to include this quote.

I feel sorry for you and your moral relativism Thus. The basis of a free society rests upon the ability of one citizen to trust another in that they will adhere to the laws that govern the society. If everyone lies, cheats, steals, pillages, etc then you have anarchy, and unless you are a sick-sad-little-man who does not fully understand what it means to be human... then you should not support anarchy and I feel sorry for your failure at life.

To kamykazee: Ethics are part of a code which people live by in order to ensure a free society. That is why it is a good quality to have and why people should practice it. The argument of ethics is not whether one should have them or not, but where to draw the lines. Unfortunately, you are correct in stating that this line of thought will take us to the philosophical realm for which this forum does not have the capacity to fit my many papers I wrote in college on the subject.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Wessan 1 - 0 Thus

Anywho; awesome articles this week I really enjoyed the lot of em

[Estonian dude]

Turns out I played already before summer 2001, since I remember playing with only one world available... I remember when the second world came out, lots of confusion. I also remember the empty houses at eastern parts of Varrock. They were there were the p2p area is right now.

I really liked the history of RS articles, reminded me boatloads about when I started. And the r2h talk is pure truth. No other weapon was good for PK.

[Articultural]

Are you sure about losing the greegree, or does it just drop to the floor on the spot you teled from/to?

[uath13]

To be honest, I don't care if someone gets $4 in change instead of $3, or bots all their skills to 99, or cheats on a paper. Why? It doesn't affect me. I live by my own code of morals, and I don't expect anyone else to live by mine. As long as it does not directly cause me some sort of pain or suffering, I don't care. We all end up in the same place anyway: hell.

So when your future doctor cheats his way through medical school & ends up graduating with no clue what he's doing when he goes to operate on you later on you don't have a problem?

Every action in the world affects other things. You'll be affected whether directly or indirectly.

Eventually that person who decided to keep the extra change decides that keeping a larger amount out of YOUR register is acceptable behavior too. You end up having to pay your company back or are simply fired...

Lets see you say someone else s ethics don't affect you to the guy that's trying to mug you.

[Andregiant]

All 3 articles were great this week!

The history of RS is such a great read! Love it.

Melee bias? Can't, or won't comment , I'm melee based . (but sure seems to be an advantage to be)


Being ethical is so personal, you are or you're not. A cashier gave me back 0.40 cents, instead of 0.30. I gave back the 0.10.
Such a small amount, still, the principle is there. for me anyway. Bottom line, you are cheating others, not only yourself.

I'm still trying to figure out why people are using macros. "Hey I'm maxed out", so?


(started playing in 2004, why I love to hear about the beginning of RS )

[sees_all1]

As promised another story relating to ethics (that didn't fit too well into my article). Consider this a bonus (I have another story later after this) .


A long time ago, a few neighborhood kids and I were hanging out (probably trading Yu-gi-oh cards or Pokemon). The subject of "worse grades ever" came up, so we each told stories about the class that we did the worst in. One of the neighbors said he only failed a class once, so we had him explain the reasons why. He said that year his class had to do a big research project, where the teacher broke everyone into groups. The groups were to meet out of school to work on the projects, relating to different animals the teacher assigned. Part of the deal was that the class had to learn how to correctly cite their sources in MLA format, and learn to use the library and its encyclopedias correctly.

He said that his group completely forgot about the project, until the teacher warned them that it was due the next day. That night, they met at one of their member's houses to work on the project. After gathering all kinds of resources, and after many distractions, it was late. With the project due the next day and the group getting nowhere, one of them volunteered saying, "I'll finish this project. You guys go home and get some sleep. Don't worry, I'll take care of it."

The next day they turned in their project. About a week later, they were called in to the Principal's office along with each of their parents. The teacher had their report, along with an encyclopedia. Apparently the one member, in his frustration, had copied the article about their animal verbatim from the encyclopedia. He took care of it, and they failed.


Moral of this story: when someone says "Don't worry, I'll take care of it," you should be very worried.

[Thus]

Forget it, can't bother tbh.

Great articles.

Edited by Thus, 27 June 2011 - 01:14 AM.

[kamykazee]

As promised another story relating to ethics (that didn't fit too well into my article). Consider this a bonus (I have another story later after this) .


A long time ago, a few neighborhood kids and I were hanging out (probably trading Yu-gi-oh cards or Pokemon). The subject of "worse grades ever" came up, so we each told stories about the class that we did the worst in. One of the neighbors said he only failed a class once, so we had him explain the reasons why. He said that year his class had to do a big research project, where the teacher broke everyone into groups. The groups were to meet out of school to work on the projects, relating to different animals the teacher assigned. Part of the deal was that the class had to learn how to correctly cite their sources in MLA format, and learn to use the library and its encyclopedias correctly.

He said that his group completely forgot about the project, until the teacher warned them that it was due the next day. That night, they met at one of their member's houses to work on the project. After gathering all kinds of resources, and after many distractions, it was late. With the project due the next day and the group getting nowhere, one of them volunteered saying, "I'll finish this project. You guys go home and get some sleep. Don't worry, I'll take care of it."

The next day they turned in their project. About a week later, they were called in to the Principal's office along with each of their parents. The teacher had their report, along with an encyclopedia. Apparently the one member, in his frustration, had copied the article about their animal verbatim from the encyclopedia. He took care of it, and they failed.


Moral of this story: when someone says "Don't worry, I'll take care of it," you should be very worried.

That isn't quite related to ethics. It's more along the lines of don't rely on incompetent people XD When a project deciding wheter i'd pass a class or not was due the next day, i wouldn't be able to sleep, lol.


EDIT: It's alright, Thus. You should have left it and not edit it. This topic is made for debates , although when it comes down to personal references or such remarks it becomes somewhat less general and just that...personal. I think we should leave all personal comments and references aside as it discourages constructive feedback

[Wessan]

My apologies if my post hindered debate and was taken personally. I was on a roll and my fingers were striking keys almost at muscle memory speeds.

I would like to welcome a debate on ethical behavior if there is a challenger to my belief that there is a standard of moral code rather than relativism.

Also, uath13, spot on post. A persons unethical behavior can and does affect others. By not giving back a dollar, one could potentially throw the balance of the register off resulting in money being taken from the cashier's paycheck.

[Viv]

This stuff is pretty commonplace in high school and college. A lot of people would justify cheating on small homework assignments as "they don't have time" and have to work on other classes - lower chance of being caught and still get that tiny percentage of grades. A lot of people get stressed out over papers/research projects but most know the consequences of blunt cheating/not citing sources as cheating on a research paper worth a large percent of the grade will definitely let u get kicked out.. In that group project example the others were being unethical too in letting the others do the work for the full grade (i think this third situation is one im most least ethical in- often times I don't feel as smart as others in group and they end up leading the group and giving me a small part of the work so I just accept it especially if the grading scale is the same for all of the group.) but then again if I'm in a group project where the other people are not as smart or hard worker as me then I can lead the group to a decent project so I see it as "give some take some". The people that cheat on small homework that actually need it will fail themselves in exam time and those that don't could have probably done the assignment quick anyway. For big papers though if you don't get caught then the good grade was definitely gotten unfairly when others put in effort. It also looks bad on the institution if cheating for big grades is possible which is why students at least Fail the assignment because if a student can cheat the way through college then in the job world employers may not trust degrees from that institution.

Another example I read about is "grazing"- eating stuff in supermarkets without paying costing supermarkets 200m a year or something. People eat food in the supermarkets and cleverly dispose of the wrappers and then proceed with their shopping - isn't this the same as shoplifting - YES. But since its only 1 dollar here 2 dollars there people that do that don't really care. But they knew if they got caught shoplifting that amount they would at least get a warning. And they cause littering in the store - more trash ect.....But these people wouldn't go steal a television just want a "snack". I read this after watching a what would you do sketch on grazing. People would yell at you for 10 strawberries but not 1-2 strawberries-but if everyone took 1-2 strawberries or everyone stole a bannana or plum then the store would have none in stock lol....

In runescape it applies to botting and real world trading the large scale/small scale thing I really have sympathy for the person that botted livid farm for 2 nights and lost 350million expirience including 50million construction experience....I searched them and it really was just that one time. But then there are people that keep on botting and bot most of there accounts which i think they should be perm banned...And selling cash alot of people would say "well if you dont have a job irl have to make money in however u can" so alot of people dont yell at sellers of cash especcially if its big amounts that would really make a difference in real life....even though they complain about bots which they support lol and alot bot to support themselves in real life so its like a real life verse game thing.

also what about methods like dicing in scape that give alot of money for little effort? is it cheatin to do that over forcing self to grind? where does those questions end

[dragon312]

"and training magic was generally considered a bad idea because it raised your combat level without increasing your damage output"

False, you could use magic while in the three rounds combat, and also this:

"Even the melee situation was pretty horrible, as there were only two serious options: the Runite or Dragon battle axe or the Runite 2-handed Sword." What about the Dragon Sword? It had one strength more then the R2H, was 1 handed and had 1 higher accuracy.

[Lodewijk66]

Could someone explain me what the penguin glitch, the dungeoneering runecrafting glitch and the mu glitch were?

I liked the article, a nice read. I think I'm going with the, it doesn't affect me so I don't care opinion. But then again, bots do affect me and if people don't care to give back $1 to a cashier, will they care for other things or just think those are the same situation, just a different place. What I mean is that this could lead to people being to easy about certain aspects of interaction, and while this doesn't necessarily mean someone is a bad person, one thing could lead to another.

For me, the only rulebreaking I ever did was use an autotyper in worlds 1 & 2. Typing the same message for about half an hour straight was too much for me.