Botting in Runescape

[Sona]

Increasing subscription costs is unwise. Particularly as most MMOs that aren't big already went into a micro-transaction model.

 

To the above scenario. It really looks something like this.

 

1)don't ban the bots, make an extra 2M dollars but risk losing your legit customers

 

2)ban the bots now, lose out on some extra money, but keep your legit customers for ever

 

1. Don't ban the bots. Make an extra whatever money. Maybe lose a few guys here and there. The people who are still addicted to my game are going to pay anyways and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, because they've invested far too much into my game already. Huehuehuehuehuehue.

 

Seriously. Look at the number of posters on the official forums, for instance. Even if every single one of those guys ragequit, Jagex loses maybe, what, 1000-2000 posters? This isn't counting the F2P, of course, which is also a sizable portion.

 

Vocal minority. I've said it over and over again.

 

2. Ban the bots now (how DO we tell bots from addicts to me game, anyways?). Lose the bot money. No guarantee of attracting players back because people'll just whine about the next thing we throw out. Best if we ban a few things periodically ...

 

See where I'm going? Most players quit Runescape not because of bots, but because the game is no longer enjoyable. Why? Maybe real life finally caught up. Or maybe they realize that the accomplishments they've achieved matters very little in the end. However, it is awesome to hop onto the bot bandwagon and proclaim loudly that you're quitting out of a sense of justice and that bots are too bad and blah.

 

Bots are a problem. But perhaps the game itself is at fault for being so simplistic. Nowadays, it takes more than simple Skinnerian mechanisms to keep players entertained. Sorry to say, but their logic is pretty simple. If you're fed up enough, you've quit already, and bots or no bots there isn't a thing we could do to make you come back and spend money anyways. So ...

 

*waves* We know you'll be back.

[Mh1456]

OH. MY. GOD. Have you seen the number of bots at aviansies? Its INSANE. There are 4 bots for every aviansie. On every world. Atleast at green dragons you can always beat a bots reaction time (single combat).

 

 

edit: however, there are no bots in the actual armadyl room. so if you want to kill aviansies, you can just get 40 kills and go in there.

[RU_Insane]

OH. MY. GOD. Have you seen the number of bots at aviansies? Its INSANE. There are 4 bots for every aviansie. On every world. Atleast at green dragons you can always beat a bots reaction time (single combat).

 

That's terrible. The most bots I've seen, excluding the autotypers, are about seven of them huddled around a yew tree. This is in F2P of course. What I really dislike about them is their pervasiveness. I don't think bots pre-free trade removal were ever that widespread. They caused a minor annoyance to me occasionally, but I could out-compete them with some effort at most. Not like that anymore. :(

[pulli23]

Increasing subscription costs is unwise. Particularly as most MMOs that aren't big already went into a micro-transaction model.

 

To the above scenario. It really looks something like this.

 

1)don't ban the bots, make an extra 2M dollars but risk losing your legit customers

 

2)ban the bots now, lose out on some extra money, but keep your legit customers for ever

 

1. Don't ban the bots. Make an extra whatever money. Maybe lose a few guys here and there. The people who are still addicted to my game are going to pay anyways and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, because they've invested far too much into my game already. Huehuehuehuehuehue.

 

Seriously. Look at the number of posters on the official forums, for instance. Even if every single one of those guys ragequit, Jagex loses maybe, what, 1000-2000 posters? This isn't counting the F2P, of course, which is also a sizable portion.

 

Vocal minority. I've said it over and over again.

 

2. Ban the bots now (how DO we tell bots from addicts to me game, anyways?). Lose the bot money. No guarantee of attracting players back because people'll just whine about the next thing we throw out. Best if we ban a few things periodically ...

 

See where I'm going? Most players quit Runescape not because of bots, but because the game is no longer enjoyable. Why? Maybe real life finally caught up. Or maybe they realize that the accomplishments they've achieved matters very little in the end. However, it is awesome to hop onto the bot bandwagon and proclaim loudly that you're quitting out of a sense of justice and that bots are too bad and blah.

 

Bots are a problem. But perhaps the game itself is at fault for being so simplistic. Nowadays, it takes more than simple Skinnerian mechanisms to keep players entertained. Sorry to say, but their logic is pretty simple. If you're fed up enough, you've quit already, and bots or no bots there isn't a thing we could do to make you come back and spend money anyways. So ...

 

*waves* We know you'll be back.

 

 

 

Do you imply bots are good for the game?

 

Then if they are, why wouldn't jagex just jump it, and start selling items themself commonly bought from bots - apparently that is actually "good".. And by providing a safe manner to do so they can both prevent overcrowding, & bad experiences about bad sellers.. On top of that they can make more profit than those bots earn them (face it: a bot earns more money by selling his items than it costs to run the bot. So apparently there's a market where people want to spent more on this game).

 

 

But nooooo once jagex seems to indicate any micro transaction people jump and shout that it is bad for the game. Yet bots -who are effectivelly micro transactions- are not bad?

[Nash]

[hide=Ring World's Comment]

There is about 2million members now.

 

I would say 50% of them bot or have botted at least 1 skill. 1million players.

 

I would say 10-15% of them are full time perm bots, whether its going for all skills 99 or for gold farming. So 200-300k players

 

 

Lets assume Jagex reverts their stance to a harsh bot you get perm banned stance again. 1million players may or may not get banned (Im sure Jagex wont ban them if they stopped botting for at least 6 months) and they only ban the 300k full time bots.

 

300k x 6 = about 2million a month.

 

Im not sure what gaming company would incinerate 2 million dollars a month to stop cheaters. Im positive Jagex does have real and powerful detection systems which they turned off as soon as they realized how profitable bots are. Maybe Jagex will go hard on all the bots, but its an insane amount of money for them to throw away when they can just roll back and/or 14 day ban and put on the persona of actually doing something.

 

Thats only half the reason bots are so common.

 

The other half is rooted deep in the gameplay of runescape. Theres a reason that theres much higher bots per capita in runescape versus World of Warcraft. The program Warden doesnt stop bots, the gameplay does. Getting max level in the game is easy, getting everything you really - need - to buy to be good is easy. What WoW does is it makes the max gear require teamwork or skill in pvp to get. While its true your average player cant buy the most expensive vanity mounts in the game they should have no problem getting the fastest flying speed and a decent mount, enough to pay for their day to day activities and the best enchants and upgrades to their equipment.

 

Runescape on the other hand takes insane amounts of hours to get decent stats. Looking at the requirements to get a quest cape alone and all stats 80+ (which I will argue is beating runescape) its massive compared to WoW. Not only is the time investment insane to a player, the gameplay is too. The gameplay is mindless and repetitive all around, I cant help but feel that some aspects of the game were designed for a machine to do as a test run instead of a human being to do for enjoyment (glad im done forever with firemaking and agility).

 

Also runescape has an economy which makes it so the cost of skills is a soft requirement of 100's of hours. With this difficult cost and the fact that some players have it easy by having bought a rare item years ago, its no wonder kids choose to bot. Many people consider botting or even buying real gold because of this part of the game. Simply put for most players their money making method is less fun then the game itself so they would do many things to avoid having to deal with it.

 

While some people feel its wrong for players to seek the easy way out on this, it shouldnt be impossible for anyone who plays runescape to imagine why some people end up botting and why Jagex chooses to let them do so. Anyone proposing a botting solution better address everything I mentioned if they expect real results.

[/hide]

Sad but true;Although you usually say things derogatorily, you're almost always spot on. Simply BANNING bots isnt going to solve the issue. Firstly because as a company, its almost idiotic to remove that kind of paycheck from their monthly-membership revenues. Secondly, because for every bot you ban, theres almost always 2 taking its place. Theres a better solution to removing bots and it involves removing the incentives to bot.

 

Theres a suggestions thread about this very subject;

 

This should help Jagex beat bots

[Lose No Hope]

Increasing subscription costs is unwise. Particularly as most MMOs that aren't big already went into a micro-transaction model.

 

To the above scenario. It really looks something like this.

 

1)don't ban the bots, make an extra 2M dollars but risk losing your legit customers

 

2)ban the bots now, lose out on some extra money, but keep your legit customers for ever

 

1. Don't ban the bots. Make an extra whatever money. Maybe lose a few guys here and there. The people who are still addicted to my game are going to pay anyways and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, because they've invested far too much into my game already. Huehuehuehuehuehue.

 

Seriously. Look at the number of posters on the official forums, for instance. Even if every single one of those guys ragequit, Jagex loses maybe, what, 1000-2000 posters? This isn't counting the F2P, of course, which is also a sizable portion.

 

Vocal minority. I've said it over and over again.

 

2. Ban the bots now (how DO we tell bots from addicts to me game, anyways?). Lose the bot money. No guarantee of attracting players back because people'll just whine about the next thing we throw out. Best if we ban a few things periodically ...

 

See where I'm going? Most players quit Runescape not because of bots, but because the game is no longer enjoyable. Why? Maybe real life finally caught up. Or maybe they realize that the accomplishments they've achieved matters very little in the end. However, it is awesome to hop onto the bot bandwagon and proclaim loudly that you're quitting out of a sense of justice and that bots are too bad and blah.

 

Bots are a problem. But perhaps the game itself is at fault for being so simplistic. Nowadays, it takes more than simple Skinnerian mechanisms to keep players entertained. Sorry to say, but their logic is pretty simple. If you're fed up enough, you've quit already, and bots or no bots there isn't a thing we could do to make you come back and spend money anyways. So ...

 

*waves* We know you'll be back.

 

 

 

Do you imply bots are good for the game?

 

Then if they are, why wouldn't jagex just jump it, and start selling items themself commonly bought from bots - apparently that is actually "good".. And by providing a safe manner to do so they can both prevent overcrowding, & bad experiences about bad sellers.. On top of that they can make more profit than those bots earn them (face it: a bot earns more money by selling his items than it costs to run the bot. So apparently there's a market where people want to spent more on this game).

 

 

But nooooo once jagex seems to indicate any micro transaction people jump and shout that it is bad for the game. Yet bots -who are effectivelly micro transactions- are not bad?

He never once said or implied bots are good for the game... I'm not sure where you think you are getting that from.

[Stev]

OH. MY. GOD. Have you seen the number of bots at aviansies? Its INSANE. There are 4 bots for every aviansie. On every world. Atleast at green dragons you can always beat a bots reaction time (single combat).

 

That's terrible. The most bots I've seen, excluding the autotypers, are about seven of them huddled around a yew tree. This is in F2P of course. What I really dislike about them is their pervasiveness. I don't think bots pre-free trade removal were ever that widespread. They caused a minor annoyance to me occasionally, but I could out-compete them with some effort at most. Not like that anymore. :(

Have a screeny on my desktop from getting KC earlier. The mini-map was flooded with white dots... It looked like the Falador party room on a 2B drop. I've seen a lot of bots before... But holy [cabbage]! They have easily doubled/tripled.

[Blyaunte]

(how DO we tell bots from addicts to me game, anyways?)

 

Ya know - you bring this same silly point up in every post you make. We're already told you, repeatedly, how it is easy to identify bots -- and you always gloss over it and ignore it.

 

Is it that you think if you keep saying the above statement, over and over again, with enough conviction, it will eventually become the truth?

 

So -- for the sake of making it abundantly clear to you, once more: BOTS ARE EASILY IDENTIFIED BY ANYONE WITH ENOUGH BRAIN CELLS AND THE ABILITY TO MANIPULATE THE GAME ENVIRONMENT (like a Jmod). ALL IT TAKES IS A MINOR ADJUSTMENT ALONG THE PATHWAY OF TYPICAL BOT, DEPLOYED SUDDENLY AND WITHOUT NOTICE, AND THE BOTS WILL ALL STICK OUT LIKE SORE THUMBS.

 

Case in point -- in the earlier days of bots -- right after they introduced the Wildy wall, they literally caught THOUSANDS of runecrafting bots who, for whatever reason, could not navigate a section of the wall on their way to the abyss.

 

Real players doing the same event COULD adjust for the change in the wall -- the bots couldn't. Real players came to the spot, got stuck for a second and then worked their way around it. Bots got stuck and then wandered back and forth for hours. HOURS!!!! DID YOU READ THAT? THEY GOT STUCK FOR HOURS!!!! BAM! Instant spotting for botting ...

 

:rolleyes:

 

Likewise, I'm not sure where you get this idea that people who dislike bots -- those that want the bots banned -- are in the "minority". Again -- it seems to me that this is just another one of these things you like to repeat, without evidence to support another of your baseless claims.

[Sona]

Biyaunte, your scenario is wonderfully presented. And yes, if Jagex does change a few things, hundreds of bots could potentially be stopped.

 

Now, does Jagex actually do these little things? The answer is no. The wilderness wall example is good, but so was the color-based anti-flax measurements. You and I both know how effective that was. In case you didn't know, bots do update too. :rolleyes: So could you stop with the name calling? It makes you look like an irate 13-yr-old.

 

I am not disputing that updates catch bots. But in most situations, those updates are patched by the bots nearly instantaneously. Modern bots are far more advanced than you give them credit for.

 

My point is simple. You cannot distinguish legitimate players from bots in those situations. Or, allow me to rephrase. The average player cannot distinguish legitimate players from bots without substantial effort, and most are unwilling to put in that effort. Perhaps you, being so astutely wise and perceptive knows with 100% certainty whether or not every player who passeth before you is a bot or not. I don't. And as stated elsewhere, people may have worked hard for their accounts. I am neither willing to waste Jagex's time nor am I willing to risk getting someone's account rolled/banned when they don't deserve it.

 

Take agility. With the exception of the ones who are constantly logged on 24/7 for weeks straight, how do you tell a legit player who don't give a damn about responding to you from a legit player who has public off to a bot? "Patterns?" Can you honestly be willing to follow them for extended periods of time just to make sure one person is not a bot? Or Runecrafting. If that runecrafter isn't stopping to answer your comments, are you really going to run three or four laps alongside them to make sure they're not botting? LRC. Slayer. You name it. Soul Wars? Pest Control?

 

Unless you're the type of player who reports every single player you deem suspicious, or you report everyone you see. In that case, then, allow me to borrow a phrase from you. Aimless reporting wastes system resources, and contributes no less to the problem at hand. This goes with my second point.

 

---------------------

 

My point being that you might as well be the minority, seeing that there's so little of you that's actively participating in "community."

 

Again, if you poll the average player through say, a magic in-game random event, you'd discover that players either dislike or are neutral to the idea of bots. I do not dispute that. However, the majority don't give a damn. Why? Simply look at player statistics and usage. One of the best ways to get Jagex's attention is presumably through official forums. In other words, if it has gotten to the point where the problem warrants significant attention - if a player is upset to the point where he or she feel the need to voice their opinions, I would guess that forums would be the next best thing, short of directly writing to customer service.

 

Runescape has approximately one million active subscribers. About 200k players logged on at any given moment.

 

The amount of players active on the official forums range from a few thousand on a good night to 422, as of five minutes ago. Of the posts relating to bots and similar issues, it takes up to less than 5% of total posts made. We can track some historical threads that's been locked, thanks to certain online archives. The largest thread, which had more than four thousand pages, had only 1755 unique IDs. Some of the larger ones (there's one that's a hundred pages long) has less than 350 unique IDs associated with it.

 

This is less than 0.1% of the total number of players logged on.

 

Let's be generous and take all the fan forums too. That still comes to a pathetically small community. Look at Tipit. How many folks regularly share their opinions here by posting, once we've removed the staff and moderators? How many of the 400k registered users here are active in the community? How many of them are vocal, outspoken critics?

 

(I'm sure the mods have better statistics, but currently, there are ~200 guests, 70 members, and 8 moderators logged in. I'm pretty sure not every one of those participated in this thread.)

 

No, let's do better. Let's multiply all of it tenfold. You'd be lucky if you can cobble together 10k players who are vocal about their opinions about bots. My conclusion is pretty simple from there.

 

10k out of how many total? Oh. That's right. Runescape touts itself as the largest F2P MMORPG. It IS one of the largest MMORPGs still, even to today. 10k may be enough to get them to send a guy to read your thread. To actually make an impact, you'll need some sort of majority or substantial, impactful number. A million players probably is too far off, even though that isn't anywhere close to being the majority. Do you think you can get 500k "supports?" 100k? 50k? 25k?

 

Vocal minority, as I've said. Still think my claims are baseless?

[Blyaunte]

(how DO we tell bots from addicts to me game, anyways?)

 

Ya know - you bring this same silly point up in every post you make. We're already told you, repeatedly, how it is easy to identify bots -- and you always gloss over it and ignore it.

 

Is it that you think if you keep saying the above statement, over and over again, with enough conviction, it will eventually become the truth?

 

So -- for the sake of making it abundantly clear to you, once more: BOTS ARE EASILY IDENTIFIED BY ANYONE WITH ENOUGH BRAIN CELLS AND THE ABILITY TO MANIPULATE THE GAME ENVIRONMENT (like a Jmod). ALL IT TAKES IS A MINOR ADJUSTMENT ALONG THE PATHWAY OF TYPICAL BOT, DEPLOYED SUDDENLY AND WITHOUT NOTICE, AND THE BOTS WILL ALL STICK OUT LIKE SORE THUMBS.

 

Case in point -- in the earlier days of bots -- right after they introduced the Wildy wall, they literally caught THOUSANDS of runecrafting bots who, for whatever reason, could not navigate a section of the wall on their way to the abyss.

 

Real players doing the same event COULD adjust for the change in the wall -- the bots couldn't. Real players came to the spot, got stuck for a second and then worked their way around it. Bots got stuck and then wandered back and forth for hours. HOURS!!!! DID YOU READ THAT? THEY GOT STUCK FOR HOURS!!!! BAM! Instant spotting for botting ...

 

:rolleyes:

 

Likewise, I'm not sure where you get this idea that people who dislike bots -- those that want the bots banned -- are in the "minority". Again -- it seems to me that this is just another one of these things you like to repeat, without evidence to support another of your baseless claims.

So could you stop with the name calling? It makes you look like an irate 13-yr-old.

 

Where in any of THAT did I call YOU a name? :unsure:

[Sona]

Not quite explicitly in the previous post, but in the other one (where we first butted heads over), I was not too keen on being accused of a botter, a source (and by proxy, attitude) of this game's problems, or a liar. I also don't like being interpreted as someone who lack basic cognitive functions or BRAIN CELLS just in the same way as you don't like (I only guess. Correct if wrong) being referred to as an irate 13-yr-old.

 

I will apologize for any harsh words I've used, but I feel that it is impossible to communicate without resorting to a stronger tone. The issue of botting, however, is here to stay. Until you can get the same rate of response as certain other events, be prepared to stay disappointed.

[Blyaunte]

Not quite explicitly in the previous post, but in the other one (where we first butted heads over), I was not too keen on being accused of a botter, a source (and by proxy, attitude) of this game's problems, or a liar. I also don't like being interpreted as someone who lack basic cognitive functions or BRAIN CELLS just in the same way as you don't like (I only guess. Correct if wrong) being referred to as an irate 13-yr-old.

 

I will apologize for any harsh words I've used, but I feel that it is impossible to communicate without resorting to a stronger tone. The issue of botting, however, is here to stay. Until you can get the same rate of response as certain other events, be prepared to stay disappointed.

 

 

Clearly you missed the "qualifier" -- enough "brain cells AND the ability to manipulate the game environment ..." :rolleyes:

 

The point is, picking out botters is clearly simple enough and can be done rather easily. Make a slight alteration one day, amend it, add another another day. It'd be easy to pick out botters anywhere. Sure, they "adjust" then you simply make another minor change and grab the next batch.

 

It may be inefficient, sure, but it's very very easy to pick out a bot. One doesn't need to simply ignore commentary -- which, by the way, as has already been pointed out to you, in this very thread, three times, you'd realize that Jmods and Pmods comments show up in your public chat, even if you have it turned off.

 

Oh and JSYK, Jagex has, at least a half dozen times to my reckoning, made a small unannounced modifications to the game: wilderness wall, locking the door in Aubury's house, the force shield at the rope at LRC -- each time catching thousands of bots.

 

it's what Jagex is doing with them, or failing to do with them, once they catch them, that is the problem.

 

Oh and with respect to your "vocal minority" theory it's cute. Really. Very cute.

 

If one was willing to accept your attempt to make the people on this singular fansite want to appear like it's only a fractional representation of a small minority of the players within the game then, yeah, sure, you can diddle with numbers and make it appear to mean anything.

 

Fact is take a sampling of people from this site and compare the numbers here to any "poll" made on the main site, and you get the same effect: from voting for the return of the Wilderness to "what colours should abyssal whips be made?" the numbers jibe, time and again.

 

The community is annoyed with bots. Had it up to their armpits with bots.

 

We're not the "silent minority" you want to pretend us to be.

[Sona]

First point: We're talking about different things, which explain the confusion. You're talking about action on behalf of Jagex. Code changes, J-mods. Things like that. I'm talking about actions carried out by the community, which is the intent behind the reporting system. I am saying that it is difficult for an average player to distinguish between botters. Last time I checked an average player cannot talk through public. The average player like you and I cannot modify the game to change behavior in order to catch bots in action. Do you at least agree with that point?

 

I started commenting on the inability for normal players to act in respond to your challenge that players should take up the burden of anti-bot. I see where the confusion is.

 

Oh and with respect to your "vocal minority" theory – it's cute. Really. Very cute.

 

If one was willing to accept your attempt to make the people on this singular fansite want to appear like it's only a fractional representation of a small minority of the players within the game then, yeah, sure, you can diddle with numbers and make it appear to mean anything.

 

Fact is – take a sampling of people from this site – and compare the numbers here to any "poll" made on the main site, and you get the same effect: from voting for the return of the Wilderness to "what colours should abyssal whips be made?" the numbers jibe, time and again.

 

The community is annoyed with bots. Had it up to their armpits with bots.

 

We're not the "silent minority" you want to pretend us to be.

 

I see someone's upset when faced with statistics.

 

Time to wake up. You may be vocal, but there's not enough of you to make a difference. I've said this over and over again. It's the reason why Jagex is recoloring whips instead of banning Frost Dragon bots. :P

 

I don't want you to pretend you're the vocal minority. Heck, don't pretend to be anything. If you being vocal can accomplish something beyond vague shadows of promises from Jagex, I'm all for that. But the fact is, has that accomplished anything at all? Once people get over the idea that they're all-important and that what they say matter, they can get on with more constructive things like actually doing something that could matter. I don't disagree for a moment that people are all fed up with bots. But they're not fed up to the point to take action. If you're unwilling to accept that as truth, then all you have to do is look around you for an answer.

[Guest jrhairychest]

@Sona,

I don’t disagree with a fair amount in your entire posts. Just a few points:

 

there's not enough of you to make a difference. I've said this over and over again. It's the reason why Jagex is recoloring whips instead of banning Frost Dragon bots

It seems enough to warrant a place in the schedule at Runefest. If your stats were correct then there’d maybe 1 person complain while there so with your stats I’m not convinced. There’s enough going on to make them take notice.

 

Aimless reporting wastes system resources, and contributes no less to the problem at hand.

It’s Jagex’s job to deal with that and it is Jagex’s job to decide what is wasteful, not yours. Reporting bots isn’t aimless if you’re reasonably sure. I’ve never seen a recent press release telling us to stop reporting, unless you have?

 

I don't disagree for a moment that people are all fed up with bots. But they're not fed up to the point to take action

I agree. There's too many who ignore the problem or who don't want to deal with it.

[Sona]

It seems enough to warrant a place in the schedule at Runefest. If your stats were correct then thered maybe 1 person complain while there so with your stats Im not convinced. Theres enough going on to make them take notice.

 

Welcome to the age of the internet, where direct communication is possible to the higher-ups. Someone from Jagex may very well stumble upon a post and decide to do something about it. What's been done can either be attributed to them practicing smart business or largely be attributed to all of you. Good job.

 

However, most people equate Jagex taking action as something that's either visible or effective. There are still people who expect an immediate solution overnight. Look at the opinions presented here and you'll find that type of people all over the place. I'm talking about immediate, pressing action, which is what people seem to associate action with. I'm simply pointing out that you won't get that sort of reaction from the company unless all of you get up in arms.

 

Its Jagexs job to deal with that and it is Jagexs job to decide what is wasteful, not yours. Reporting bots isnt aimless if youre reasonably sure. Ive never seen a recent press release telling us to stop reporting, unless you have?

 

My comment is aimed at the prevailing attitude that if you don't report every "bot" you see, then you're part of the problem. I do report those that are clearly bots. Things like xjdkfsnj, for instance. But you can't honestly expect every d-leg/granite body wearing guy down at Turoth's or everyone running at Ape Atoll is a bot? How sure is reasonably sure? With efficiency being the paradigm of the year, most players want to accomplish their goal and do it fast. Stopping to answer a question is counterproductive from their perspective.

 

And let's face it. You're someone who invested thousands of hours into this game. How likely are you to answer to someone's accusations, anyways? We've even got a rant thread here on this forums for that very reason.

[Pirkka]

[hide=Ring World's Comment]

There is about 2million members now.

 

I would say 50% of them bot or have botted at least 1 skill. 1million players.

 

I would say 10-15% of them are full time perm bots, whether its going for all skills 99 or for gold farming. So 200-300k players

 

 

Lets assume Jagex reverts their stance to a harsh bot you get perm banned stance again. 1million players may or may not get banned (Im sure Jagex wont ban them if they stopped botting for at least 6 months) and they only ban the 300k full time bots.

 

300k x 6 = about 2million a month.

 

Im not sure what gaming company would incinerate 2 million dollars a month to stop cheaters. Im positive Jagex does have real and powerful detection systems which they turned off as soon as they realized how profitable bots are. Maybe Jagex will go hard on all the bots, but its an insane amount of money for them to throw away when they can just roll back and/or 14 day ban and put on the persona of actually doing something.

 

Thats only half the reason bots are so common.

 

The other half is rooted deep in the gameplay of runescape. Theres a reason that theres much higher bots per capita in runescape versus World of Warcraft. The program Warden doesnt stop bots, the gameplay does. Getting max level in the game is easy, getting everything you really - need - to buy to be good is easy. What WoW does is it makes the max gear require teamwork or skill in pvp to get. While its true your average player cant buy the most expensive vanity mounts in the game they should have no problem getting the fastest flying speed and a decent mount, enough to pay for their day to day activities and the best enchants and upgrades to their equipment.

 

Runescape on the other hand takes insane amounts of hours to get decent stats. Looking at the requirements to get a quest cape alone and all stats 80+ (which I will argue is beating runescape) its massive compared to WoW. Not only is the time investment insane to a player, the gameplay is too. The gameplay is mindless and repetitive all around, I cant help but feel that some aspects of the game were designed for a machine to do as a test run instead of a human being to do for enjoyment (glad im done forever with firemaking and agility).

 

Also runescape has an economy which makes it so the cost of skills is a soft requirement of 100's of hours. With this difficult cost and the fact that some players have it easy by having bought a rare item years ago, its no wonder kids choose to bot. Many people consider botting or even buying real gold because of this part of the game. Simply put for most players their money making method is less fun then the game itself so they would do many things to avoid having to deal with it.

 

While some people feel its wrong for players to seek the easy way out on this, it shouldnt be impossible for anyone who plays runescape to imagine why some people end up botting and why Jagex chooses to let them do so. Anyone proposing a botting solution better address everything I mentioned if they expect real results.

[/hide]

Sad but true;Although you usually say things derogatorily, you're almost always spot on. Simply BANNING bots isnt going to solve the issue. Firstly because as a company, its almost idiotic to remove that kind of paycheck from their monthly-membership revenues. Secondly, because for every bot you ban, theres almost always 2 taking its place. Theres a better solution to removing bots and it involves removing the incentives to bot.

 

Theres a suggestions thread about this very subject;

 

This should help Jagex beat bots

If there's always two bots replacing each one Jagex bans, it could practically double it's own income by banning all the bots. Profit!

[runelo]

I just started playing back again a month ago and the bots are much worse. I could almost quit again because of it.

I cant train as easy as I use to be able too and dang! rune scims use to be 35k, not 15. My solution would be having players have the option to

hit ppl in game for no hits or one hp hit and allow us to be able to use the action every five min. This i think would mess the bots up. I didnt know til today reading posts on runescape site

that they took off combat randoms.... thats bull!

[Necromagus]

This topic is closed for investigation/cleanup.

 

-Necromagus, Tip.It Mod.

[Necromagus]

The topic is now open again. Feel free to continue the discussion, within Tip.It forum rules of course :).

 

-Necromagus, Tip.It Mod.

[hatebringer]

Go to any f2p world and check out the yews/willows... Go to a P2P world and watch the ess mine in varrock.... Go to Agility Cources... Go to any... ANY resource that is a decent income and look... For god sakes go look in Frost Dragons -.- .... There was a time I actually wanted to get 85 dungeon to go kill frost dragons for the bones and possible money, but not any more. Bots have ruined that.

 

A nice little soultion might be a random that requires you to solve a captcha device, sort of like on forums but on a more frequent base, like every hour or so. Depending on the ammount of time taken to solve it, the frequency would decrease over time and would not deter actual legitimate players and could give a nice reqard such as a xp book or something of a more valueable sort. implement it secretly so that it would not be on the front page, and if the time taken exceeds, lets say 30 minutes, instant temp ban post investigation of the account for futher "botlike" review. And for this it should have thousands of possibilites for required input, so that it could not be scripted in any way. Like an actual RANDOM puzzle

 

I know its not much but something has to be done. The return of free trade brought me back, but in a way it makes me not want to play when everytime I ntry to skill, I have to compete with bots... and yes...

 

EVERYDAY I'M BOTREPORTERIN'

[Blyaunte]

I see someone's upset when faced with statistics.

 

LOL!

 

Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'

~ Mark Twain

 

Like I said -- you can make statistics appear to mean "anything" -- a point which you deliberately ignored obviously missed.

 

Inasumch as NO ONE knows exactly how many Runescape accounts are out there: how many Runescape accounts are solely operated; how many Runescape accounts are simply bots; how many accounts are all operated by the same individual; how many are simply inactive -- there really is no way of knowing how many actual accounts are involved in your "magical" equations statistics.

 

Still -- I do find it amusing to see you so desperate to prove your point. As someone who has only recently joined this fansite, you seem to be working awfully hard to try and derail these discussions -- most characteristically through misplaced "facts", comments which are blatantly untrue, repetitive and provide little more than a great deal of denial and obfuscation.

[Sona]

Using a large array of ad hominem attacks don't make your argument stronger, Biyaunte. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not trying to convince you, nor am I desperate to prove my point. Rather, from the vehement way in which you're arguing your position, it is rather self-evident to see which one of us care more about the topical matter at hand. You jump on statistics, and deny those. That's fine. I can accept your perspective. I simply present, through observation, that the Runescape community as a whole is largely interested in actually playing the game rather than offering input. The numbers I cite simply reflect that observation. You are free to deny the contention as it stands, as is everyone else reading what I write here, but the observations are there, and they aren't going away.

 

Neither are bots.

 

Some people don't like to face opinions in which they disagree with - as you've demonstrated in more than one thread (Tip.it article on worship comes to mind). However, the heart of the issue is botting, and that's the topic we're on here. If you're so learned, care to share with us some secrets? You toss out blanketing statements like "it's obvious", but to newer players, it may not be so obvious. I was at Frost Dragons yesterday, for instance. Nearly every one there was a grim, dour, hard-working player/bot who was grinding out their time 24/7. Should I, by logic presented here, report them all? After all, every high level player valuing their efficiency acts like a bot. :P

 

The other issue that I've presented is in an attempt to explain why Jagex seems to be slow in responding to player demand. Once again, I've received no better counterargument than straight-up denial. I am simply stressing that you - the people who may or not frequent the rant forums - may not be as important as you claim in the grand scheme of things from the perspective of a company. People who desire instant reaction and are upset that they're getting none because, as I've said, you haven't made enough of an impact. The best evidence supporting this is Jagex's seemingly inattentiveness to the bots that are running rampant in the world. Surely you can't call that made up either, as Sten cited some avansie bots earlier with EXP in the 30-40 millions earlier that was so conveniently removed?

 

I'm sorry if I've hurt feelings, but just because you've been around for a long time doesn't mean you're automatically correct. I can see from your condescending tone that you must feel something, and I am sincerely apologetic for any bad feelings that you may have brought upon yourself.

[Blyaunte]

Using a large array of ad hominem attacks don't make your argument stronger, Biyaunte. :rolleyes:

 

I'm not trying to convince you, nor am I desperate to prove my point. Rather, from the vehement way in which you're arguing your position, it is rather self-evident to see which one of us care more about the topical matter at hand. You jump on statistics, and deny those. That's fine. I can accept your perspective. I simply present, through observation, that the Runescape community as a whole is largely interested in actually playing the game rather than offering input. The numbers I cite simply reflect that observation. You are free to deny the contention as it stands, as is everyone else reading what I write here, but the observations are there, and they aren't going away.

 

Neither are bots.

 

Some people don't like to face opinions in which they disagree with - as you've demonstrated in more than one thread (Tip.it article on worship comes to mind). However, the heart of the issue is botting, and that's the topic we're on here. If you're so learned, care to share with us some secrets? You toss out blanketing statements like "it's obvious", but to newer players, it may not be so obvious. I was at Frost Dragons yesterday, for instance. Nearly every one there was a grim, dour, hard-working player/bot who was grinding out their time 24/7. Should I, by logic presented here, report them all? After all, every high level player valuing their efficiency acts like a bot. :P

 

The other issue that I've presented is in an attempt to explain why Jagex seems to be slow in responding to player demand. Once again, I've received no better counterargument than straight-up denial. I am simply stressing that you - the people who may or not frequent the rant forums - may not be as important as you claim in the grand scheme of things from the perspective of a company. People who desire instant reaction and are upset that they're getting none because, as I've said, you haven't made enough of an impact. The best evidence supporting this is Jagex's seemingly inattentiveness to the bots that are running rampant in the world. Surely you can't call that made up either, as Sten cited some avansie bots earlier with EXP in the 30-40 millions earlier that was so conveniently removed?

 

I'm sorry if I've hurt feelings, but just because you've been around for a long time doesn't mean you're automatically correct. I can see from your condescending tone that you must feel something, and I am sincerely apologetic for any bad feelings that you may have brought upon yourself.

 

Ya know what -- I am gonna follow the advice I've already been given and just ignore you and your silly arguments any further.

 

It goes nowhere. You keep repeating the same (already completely refuted) points as though no one's answered them. You ignore everything presented to you. It's not worth my time responding to you.

 

I'll let someone else waste their time on you.

 

:rolleyes:

[Ginger_Warrior]

Ya know what -- I am gonna follow the advice I've already been given and just ignore you and your silly arguments any further.

...and you'll accomplish this by quoting the post in question and making a full post in reply to it?

 

:huh:

 

It's this "last-wordism" that really drags the discursive value of the boards down at times.

[GregorDGrim]

It's this "last-wordism" that really drags the discursive value of the boards down at times.

Seriously.