Tip.It Times - 18th September 2011

[Rainy_Day]

Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<

 

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When replying please make sure to clarify the article you are replying to! Thanks!

 

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Enjoy the articles!

[Sona]

@ First Article: Well-written, but quite biased towards our favorite Java-based browser game. If you think killing Nex is complicated, I suggest going into any established MMORPG and try some of their end-game content.

 

Huge difference between Runescape and virtually every other game: Runescape is stigmatized due to the fact that RS is fundamentally a game aimed toward a younger audience, and thus, the gameplay itself is more simplistic. People still see it as a kiddie game. Plus, that whole passive gameplay thing isn't really helping its case. College gamers are rarely interested in achievements in a virtual game because there are more fun things out there. The competitive gamers who care about achievement won't give a damn about a java-based browser game when say, for example, they can compete for that 5 million prize pool League of Legends have. Or the 2.5 mil pool for DoTA2 when it comes out. Or go into a Korean pro circuit for Starcraft.

 

Basically, take League of Legends, TF2, anything that's multiplayer: you can have fun, here, and now. Oftentimes with a group of buddies. People want to be doing something - and the pacing of Runescape rarely matches that of what you'd see elsewhere.

 

Runescape: you can have fun - but only after you've fished X, Y, Z, all of which take hundreds and hundreds of hours. And let's be honest. If you have to grind away the hours away by doing something ELSE that is fun... The game isn't really fun in the first place, is it? I mean, I myself will log on and plant a crop or something and then log off. If I have a solid block of time, I'd be doing stuff in meatspace or - you guessed it - playing League of Legends. I'm sure it's fun for those of who have 99s in everything, but this game is quite fun at the earliest stages, interesting towards the middle-end game where you're just hitting your last requirements for quests, and then drops off steeply until you can put in the hours for end-game content.

 

Let's not even talk about the community. Please. The 1500 worlds are no better when your average player's vocabulary consists of "pwn", "noob," and "pk."* Most of the players here make WoW's community look like an erudite, sensitive group of manly men and womenly women. I'm around top 1-2% in League of Legends. People tryhard and rage a lot there. I can assure you that I'd much, much rather play with the elitists there than our home-grown elitists here.

 

Which games are more popular? That's really a no brainer here. And unfortunately, this game won't change. The community won't change. You have gems here and there, but in the end, those who are seriously into the game will most likely quit in disillusion, leaving only the noobs like us hanging around. It is a shame, too, because this game is arguably the most sandbox-like out there in MMO history.

 

Incidentally, second article's proposition is rather unrealistic. Bots will always have appeal because it allows the botter to get stuff without putting in the work. That's always going to be appealing. You don't see bots in the games I've listed above for a couple of reasons. It's either not possible (in TF2 you can always idle and hope for hats), or pointless (why would you bot a League of Legends game? Or StarCraft 2?)

 

The only way those botting companies will run out of customers would be if Runescape had some internal method that would allow a player to obtain high-end items at a relatively quick pace. This implies either messing up the game completely, or adding in micro-transaction based items to allow an "unfair boost". Personally, I have nothing against microtransactions. The economic model works well for many, many games. However, given Jagex's historical stance on "equality for all," I think it'll probably cause far more rage than necessary.

 

So bots are here to stay.

 

*I like to hang around Edgeville. Observation may be biased.

[Deathknell]

I personally loathe RTS games. I'll take the worst Runescape over any of them.

[Troacctid]

I wrote a counterpoint to the first article, like, two years ago.

[Viv]

Well people see Runescape as out of date....also really its only good for those that are really into it there better games out there also I think RS has a reallllllll required time limit for skill levels......I mean if you want to feel like your making progress (constant experience /day).......I'll log in to do quest(w00 comp cape)/check prices on some ge items but really not interested in anything else for now...

 

I think generally people want games that are interactive and actiony and don't require months-years to get to the action

Its possible to digitally download pc games from game-stop or other sites to old ones are like 10 bucks some are 20

 

I would say rs isnt a sufficient brain distractor- simulation that you need after or before studying......And why try and afk runescape when you can just do schoolwork more efficiently and then have interactivity in another game

 

the multiplayer aspect of scape is good if you find a few friends and have been playing scape throughout highschool but its not great if you start a new character.....most of my friends have moved on

 

I know this post sounds like im bashing scape but from a game-design perspective it gets laughed at and really except for a few people that really enjoy training agility, fishing, ect other more casual games or more strategy games beat it...

[cowmaster187]

didn't we have that DYK like a month or so ago?

 

~~~legoman187~~~

[i_trollz_u]

Runescape is fun if you've been playing like 5+ years.

 

TBH if i was a new player in f2p i would quit after the first 10 minutes of killing goblins, I don't see the RS playerbase expanding anywhere in the near future (explains why RS combat lvl distribution is so top heavy and skewed towards higher level players). I'd almost be willing to bet that the majority of of members are 100+ cb and 60% of all people under 100 CB are pures/skillers.

[Dire_Wolf]

@first article

obvious that your biased. And everything can be fun if you involve chat with others. However, what if you removed chat when cutting trees. Would it still be fun? Personally even with chat i find grinding Runescape boring. I begun playing when i was much younger. So Runescape is game for kids and for old people who want some meaning in life.

 

I'd say Runescape in many cases is a substitute for something the players are lacking in real life.

[jaklumen]

So Runescape is game for kids and for old people who want some meaning in life.

 

I'd say Runescape in many cases is a substitute for something the players are lacking in real life.

 

Tsk. I'm enjoying my real life quite well, thanks.

 

No, really, I get your argument, but it's a tired and overwrought one. Yes, I've met plenty of players-- adult ones at that-- who really are hooked because of the escapist appeal. Cue the Run!Escape jokes now, please. But at the risk of repeating myself, this is why I play:

 

1. 5US$/month is lower than all of the other subscription-based MMOs out there, period.

2. Most of the time, I can log in and out of the game quickly, at will. It is fairly easy for me to attend to real life as I need to. My friends who play World of Warcraft, for example, can't claim that-- they know if they have to leave a raid because IRL is calling... they get ditched.

3. Runescape appeals to a wide variety of playing styles-- the other MMOs do NOT cover that many, especially when the gameplay is non-combat.

 

I do play other games-- I'm enjoying Parallel Kingdom right now, which uses Google Maps. But really, if you're going to dis adult players... c'mon, save it for Facebook. I know hordes more adults that sink real money and grind even harder on games with stupidly simplistic scripts *cough*Zynga with Farmville and Mafia Wars especially*cough*

 

I enjoyed the articles... yes, the first one was biased, but let's be real here... so many in the past were biased towards slamming Jagex.

 

Man, I will laugh so hard if Tip.It gets threatened with a lawsuit again, someone other than Andrew. I mean, really, overall, this community really can be full of itself sometimes. One week someone isn't full of piss and vinegar, and the piss and vinegar flows harder to compensate. I'm laughing, man, and I've been around long enough or talked to people that have been here longer than me-- back to the Scapeboard days and such-- ha. Ha.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

Yeah, I need to convince myself I'm wasting my time here. Everyone likes stewing in their own juices with a little whine, right? Ha, with a liter or so of hypocrisy to boot.

[pal2002]

 

1. 5US$/month is lower than all of the other subscription-based MMOs out there, period.

This is not true - I can think of/have played sub MMO with $3/month before.

[jamesgoh]

Logged in to forums to say that you are not the only engineer in college now that still enjoys runescape. :)

 

But i have to agree that the people around me generally view runescape as a game that they played ages ago and they just remember it as a game with terrible graphics. I have often been met with ridicule or a pelthora of questions when people find out that i play rs. As such, i usually do not talk about it in real life, and somewhat hide the fact that i still play it regularly.

 

p.s. i play dota and starcraft 2 too.

 

A little dilemma i noticed: Runescape is now mainly comprised of old timers (like me) who have played since classic, or at least for a substantial amount of time. (of course there are also bots.) Jagex is trying to change their marketing model to attract new players, such as the recent refer-a-friend, game time cards and even the return of free trade/wilderness could be seen as a move to bring more players back. However, these new methods obviously dont sit well with the current players and many quit thereafter, citing the increase in bots or the introduction of cosmetic items as their reason. But without new methods to attract the current generation of players, the game would die out eventually. so what can we do?

 

Just my 2 cents.

[pal2002]

Logged in to forums to say that you are not the only engineer in college now that still enjoys runescape. :)

 

But i have to agree that the people around me generally view runescape as a game that they played ages ago and they just remember it as a game with terrible graphics. I have often been met with ridicule or a pelthora of questions when people find out that i play rs. As such, i usually do not talk about it in real life, and somewhat hide the fact that i still play it regularly.

 

p.s. i play dota and starcraft 2 too.

 

A little dilemma i noticed: Runescape is now mainly comprised of old timers (like me) who have played since classic, or at least for a substantial amount of time. (of course there are also bots.) Jagex is trying to change their marketing model to attract new players, such as the recent refer-a-friend, game time cards and even the return of free trade/wilderness could be seen as a move to bring more players back. However, these new methods obviously dont sit well with the current players and many quit thereafter, citing the increase in bots or the introduction of cosmetic items as their reason. But without new methods to attract the current generation of players the game would die out eventually. so what can we do?

 

Just my 2 cents.

It is us, the most loyal players, who have spread the game over the years to where it has gotten today. Jagex need to be realize that we are the best PR/marketing strategy for the game - it will never be the gimmicks they're throwing out these days. I personally have gotten 10+ people to sign up for RS and 5+ members. I won't do it anymore.

 

And it certainly is bad PR when a new player logs in for the first time to Lumb, and have 10 ad bots selling gold, and every chicken camped by bots throughout F2P, and 25% of bots named 'llll1ll1iilllil'.

 

I see 1 good way out - becoming a console game - this has worked out save other MMOs - the console version will prob run on its own bot-free servers and the RS name will get at least some people to sign up.

Honestly, I don't see much hope for the PC version when it has gotten to this point today.

 

The writer of the 2nd article, arceus is a bit over optimistic. Integrity/morals have never really existed in RS - and it will never solve our huge bot problem. Only a good ol' fashion crime and punishment system will scare some sense into people.

[FooK-A-Ji]

I'd like to comment on the first article.

 

LoL is closer to RTA, a real time action game with a 3rd persons view, rather than a RTS, since real-time strategy games include micromanagement.

Also the reason many prefer games like that over RS in your college, is that within 30-60 minutes you gain instant satisfaction. There is no foreplay.

 

With regards to skill, I would rather you talk about DotA versus RS instead of LoL vs RS. Since LoL is DotA, just cheaper, worse graphics and more restricted in many ways (and in some ways less).

There are professional gaming leagues for DotA, which is a mod of Warcraft 3.

 

Both games came out in the start of the new millenium, yet now in Korea and the U.S and certain European countries, one can make a decent living from playing DotA. Why? It is a skill game in a totally different league than Runescape. Granted Runescape requires a set of skills, but so does Tetris and Pacman, you don't see anybody gaining fame or making money off those games.

 

To make a long story short.

With regards to skill,

Runescape is rated low amongst gamers.

The challenge therefore is low and ultimately the feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment doesn't pay off, taking the amount of time and effort one must put into reaching the end-game in consideration.

 

Also if one thinks the game is boring, opening RS in a tab and doing other stuff isn't likely to make one enjoy the game more. So why play?

 

Good article though and nice to know there still are loyal members out there, albeit I very rarely play. I just hate to see a game I played for 10 years get bashed out of pure sentimental issues, lol.

 

On a side note, I've actually only discussed Runescape with 2 people in real life over the past 10 years. How weird is that?

[Phixcire]

fyi League of legends is gai and so is anyone that plays it, and yes i did try it once

[i_trollz_u]

League of legends has a pretty decent chance at being RS for the golden joysticks for best f2p.

[FooK-A-Ji]

fyi League of legends is gai and so is anyone that plays it, and yes i did try it once

 

I agree that the derivation is rather poor and I prefer the original game, DotA over it.

Some things I haven't understood are, why make the fps rate so low per default?

The movement is choppy, unlike DotA and I fail to see what the idea behind it is.

 

I appreciate some things, such as the ability to hide in tall grass and the ability to tp for free to base and thats about it.

 

Not being able to deny creeps also sucks, since that is was can make or break a game if you're good at it.

 

Oh well, come DotA 2, LoL and HoN will die.

 

I can understand if an outsider that never tried DotA thinks LoL is cool and fun. But if you played DotA and liked it, I have a hard time understanding the choice to switch over to LoL.

[i_trollz_u]

fyi League of legends is gai and so is anyone that plays it, and yes i did try it once

 

I agree that the derivation is rather poor and I prefer the original game, DotA over it.

Some things I haven't understood are, why make the fps rate so low per default?

The movement is choppy, unlike DotA and I fail to see what the idea behind it is.

 

I appreciate some things, such as the ability to hide in tall grass and the ability to tp for free to base and thats about it.

 

Not being able to deny creeps also sucks, since that is was can make or break a game if you're good at it.

 

Oh well, come DotA 2, LoL and HoN will die.

 

I can understand if an outsider that never tried DotA thinks LoL is cool and fun. But if you played DotA and liked it, I have a hard time understanding the choice to switch over to LoL.

 

Is DotA f2p?

[FooK-A-Ji]

fyi League of legends is gai and so is anyone that plays it, and yes i did try it once

 

I agree that the derivation is rather poor and I prefer the original game, DotA over it.

Some things I haven't understood are, why make the fps rate so low per default?

The movement is choppy, unlike DotA and I fail to see what the idea behind it is.

 

I appreciate some things, such as the ability to hide in tall grass and the ability to tp for free to base and thats about it.

 

Not being able to deny creeps also sucks, since that is was can make or break a game if you're good at it.

 

Oh well, come DotA 2, LoL and HoN will die.

 

I can understand if an outsider that never tried DotA thinks LoL is cool and fun. But if you played DotA and liked it, I have a hard time understanding the choice to switch over to LoL.

 

Is DotA f2p?

 

It is a Warcraft 3 mod, but yes DotA is free. DotA 2 will be a stand-alone game and most likely cost the same price as most new computer games, but it will also be a one-time payment.

Warcraft 3 and Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne you will have to buy if you wish to play DotA. It's dirt cheap on Battle.net though and you can download the game directly off their server, it's about 1.5 gigabytes all in all so you could have it up and running within an hour or two.

 

If you like LoL you might as well play the better version that LoL and HoN are copying.

[jamesgoh]

there are ways to play dota without paying a cent... but that's off topic i guess

 

on topic:

 

i agree that most games nowadays, such as dota, starcraft2, team fortress 2, just to name a few, give the player "instant" gratification. The "problem" with mmorpgs, especially one that has been around for a long time, is the long "start-up" and time sink to derive equal, if not more, satisfaction and enjoyment.

[FooK-A-Ji]

 

 

there are ways to play without paying a cent... but that's off topic i guess

 

on topic:

 

i agree that most games nowadays, such as dota, starcraft2, team fortress 2, just to name a few, give the player "instant" gratification. The "problem" with mmorpgs is the long "start-up" and time sink to derive equal, if not more, satisfaction and enjoyment.

 

Haha yeah well, seeing as Tip.it is a rather respectable forum I steered away from that path ;)

 

You're right about the long start-up as well. Although one funny thing that makes RS unique is the lack of substantial end-game. And by end-game I don't mean making a goal to get 20 mil exp in each skill. I mean actualy end-game material.

 

Even though it's 10 years now, one can still really feel the effects it has had, that Andrew and Paul had no idea where this game was going.

 

Although there are many joys and pleasures throughout the entirety of RS as a game.

The feeling of accomplishment is surprisingly small when achieving a goal (9 out of 10 times it is a numerary goal , either X amount of item one wishes to attain or XX level in a certain skill).

I have 6 or 7 skills that are level 99. Was I happy when I attained the level? Not really. Was I relieved? BY ALL MEANS YES.

 

The feeling of emptiness is likely to occur with lack of endgame, once a player has reached a high level in Runescape, which might be the cause of the growing amount of people questioning Jagex and their motives, as the amount of high levelled and skilled players continues to grow.

 

As a matter of fact, RS reminds me of many text-based games, since the majority play for the numeral effect. They want to see numbers growing. Some just happen to enjoy the grind to get there.

[Aten]

lol RTS lol, real gamers play shooters (and none of that auto-aim garbage on console)

[Sona]

Haha yeah well, seeing as Tip.it is a rather respectable forum I steered away from that path ;)

 

You're right about the long start-up as well. Although one funny thing that makes RS unique is the lack of substantial end-game. And by end-game I don't mean making a goal to get 20 mil exp in each skill. I mean actualy end-game material.

 

Even though it's 10 years now, one can still really feel the effects it has had, that Andrew and Paul had no idea where this game was going.

 

Modern players tend to be spoiled in such ways. Gaming moved from the paradigm of playing for the sake of playing to playing for the sake of accomplishment. This is all fine and good in itself, but for Runescape, the idea of community is unfortunately, a recent one. It's an MMO that for some reason, only put in guilds something like last year.

 

I used to write as a freelance writer for a few gaming websites including MMORPG.com. MMO trends and statistics were interesting to me, once. :) The stuff below is entirely personal opinion supported by a few observations.

 

 

To the guy who's been talking DOTA: HoN is basically DOTA. LoL is some sort of hybridized offspring between DOTA and a few other arena-based projects. The latter has been a commercial success because it manages to pull in a metric ton of "casual" players and moved away from the genre as a whole. The microtransaction model doesn't hurt either - something this game could possibly learn from. In terms of players: DOTA still have, AFAIK, 12-18 million players, most of which are centered and located in Asia and Europe. It's got a decent number of players built from years of popularity. League of Legends have around 11 million players, and is about a two year old. HoN has much less (~1 mil?), and is the one that really should be worried about DOTA 2.

 

Currently, the hilarious thing is that LoL is battling against WoW for the most played MMO/MPS game, and it's been winning for the last month or so. I wouldn't be surprised if it wins Golden Joystick. The reason that LoL sort of "won" over its MOBA counterparts was that they marketed their game extremely intelligently. DOTA is known for its nerd-raging hardcore denying community. League of Legends, while just as bad, basically passed itself off as something more casual and enjoyable - and it worked. 450k unique IDs watching Dreamhack streams? Not even SC2 gets that much, and that's basically a national sport in some countries.

 

The point is, advertising is king in today's gaming industry. Runescape has a few strikes against it already in its current model that all but ensure it'll never get the 20somethings with disposable income and can only settle for 8-13 yr olds who consider membership a pretty sizable fee.

 

- No big "selling" point: Jagex's marketing team isn't stupid. They understand that people my age have disposable income. Look at all the other games in its genre. LOTRO is, well, LOTR. WoW is well-known for its end-game content. Guild Wars is Guild Wars. Rifts have that unique Rift mechanic that draws in newer players. RS is unique in that the world itself is designed competently. Most of the skills and etc intermesh and create an illusionary sense of depth, and it IS sufficient to be immersive and fun. However, just how WOULD you market something like this to your average high school graduate/college student/young adult and make it look appealing when that 13 yr old just ran past you going TRUSTED dice 55x2 JOIN MAI CLAN CHAT!!1!

 

There's a difference between say, downing the Lich King, fighting a thousand-man battle for the fate of the server, or whatever the hell is going on in EVE online and say, Nex.

 

(No offense to any 13 yr olds who may be reading this. I mean no offense, but the majority of folks in your age group aren't exactly the most pleasant thing to be around in a game.)

 

- Societal stigma: My gender is irrelevant, but mentioning this game will get you some very strange looks from even the guy who spends all of his free time grinding in that new Korean-MMO-that-just-came-out-a-month-ago-and-is-so-aweseome. That image is a self-reinforcing one and one that is perpetuated by what community that exists, including this one here.

 

- Top heavy community makes it difficult to actually get into the game: Games like LoL and TF2 circumvent this due to fundamental differences in game design. Games like LOTRO and EVE has a steady group of players who actively reach out to new players. WoW has a constant influx of new recruits, ensuing that the game will more or less have new blood. Look around you today. How many of those folks running around are new lowbies (and not someone's pure) in comparison to the nearly maxed out level 100somethings? In other words, it takes additional effort for a new player to even attempt to stay in the game.

 

All of these are somewhat compensated by the fact that Jagex has worked in a simple retention mechanism (loyalty points). This in itself is probably enough to keep many who have invested enough into the game at all stages to at least keep on shelling out money. Furthermore, Runescape absolutely dominates the 8-13 yr old gaming scene, beating out Club Penguin, Neopets, and Puzzle Pirates by a significant margin.

 

[Arceus]

I can't address everything you wrote, but the "top-heavy" problem is a good point I had not quite realized before. Although it is easy to dismiss this idea by claiming that full rune is under 150k, and food is extremely cheap or easy to obtain-how does one go about making their first 150k? I remember that after having some experience, I fished anchovies/shrimp for 100k on my level 3 account, primarily for the fishing xp, not money...it took a few hours to make 100k. (This was during the period when there was not free trade, so that the prices had not gone to zero yet.) From 100k+ it was very easy via merchanting, but how much success will a new player have with that?

[Blyaunte]

Huge difference between Runescape and virtually every other game: Runescape is stigmatized due to the fact that RS is fundamentally a game aimed toward a younger audience, and thus, the gameplay itself is more simplistic.

 

Strange -- I thought Runescape was more "simplistic" in gameplay because it was a Java-based browser game ... :rolleyes:

 

 

Re the second article -- while I applaud your sense of integrity and honour, I am afraid that people with honour and integrity are few and far between ... :unsure:

[Thnks_fr_th_Mmrs]

Great article. I am in college as well and get asked all the time why I would play a game like runescape over LoL or WoW. Something about completing those terribly long grinds and achieving your goals always makes it worth it. It's a gratifying experience botters will never have.