US House votes to up defense and limit human rights

[Zierro]

Just let 'em try. Nothing can stop TEN THOUSAND FISTS IN THE AIR!!!

[Dizzle229]

Damnit. I'll have to get rid of my dresser to make room for my telescreen :sad:

[Jonanananas]

Why is it that every time one of these laws comes up people always jump to a 1984 or V for Vendetta dystopia situation?

The internet has very small reference pools and a love of Guy Fawkes masks? :razz:

 

"Can" doesn't mean "Will". I'm waiting to see what they do with it, not what an army of Stalin clones could do with it.

 

Shouldn't a law prevent abuse though? If you say "until they abuse it, it's ok", that would leave the door wide open for a lot of horrifying stuff. I'm not living in the US so maybe I'm not quite in the same situation, but I find this to be shocking. A law that severely cuts down on human rights in this way shouldn't be able to pass in a western country(Well it shouldn't pass anywhere, but here you wouldn't expect it at least). Total observation of suspects could be justified with the same arguments a.ka "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear"

 

Again, I'm not affected directly...but personally I hope this law is deemed unconstitutional by the supreme court.

[Giordano]

I'm neutral on this bill until they actually start yanking people off of the street because that's the guy who inconvenienced him 6 years ago.

 

I don't think American citizens don't have much to worry here, I've never heard of someone getting dragged off by the Patriot Act. If you keep your mouth shut, you would be alright. I would sense this bill affects more people overseas rather than people within America.

 

Not that I like this thing, but what else can we do?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Yeah, I mean I'm not one of these people who thinks the government is perniciously attempting to remove all forms of free will. It's the basic, most fundamental principle of justice that's being vandalised which I take objection to: That the onus is on others to prove guilt in a court of law before innocence is removed.

[Hamtaro]

Just let 'em try. Nothing can stop TEN THOUSAND FISTS IN THE AIR!!!

I lol'd so hard at your comment. Thanks for that.

 

On Topic: I say we start a movement to vote out every politician who votes for this bill, PIPA, or SOPA next November. Enough is enough. This is America where we claim to be the pinnacle of the free world, yet we're becoming the very thing we hate most more and more every day. I don't think I have ever been so disappointed with my country until these past few months.

 

Also, living near the unofficial Muslim capital of the US (Dearborn) and knowing the stereotyping that will stem from this bill, I have an especially bad feeling that the bill would be particularly harsh around here.

[Range_This11]

Also, I think this topic title is pretty misleading.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Uh... what? Ginger_Warrior was referring to Britain when he said 'here'. As I said, we haven't had to detain for longer than 14 days since 2007, and the threat of terrorism is far smaller now than it was back then. There's no rational reason to detain for longer than 14 days now, let alone indefinitely. America's own interests includes not being hypocritical when it tries to criticise the human rights situation of another, because otherwise nobody will take them seriously. It's been bad enough with Guantanimo Bay and the repression of the Occupy protests, this is just making it even worse.

 

Sorry my post seems confusing. I was meaning that I wish Britain would adopt a similar approach to the OP. As a Briton, you know as well as I do about the wet lettuces we have for our own government. We are at the moment a pathetic nation that can't even stand up to Europe in a tough and dignified manner. The threat of terrorism is never small, no matter what. That's called letting your guard down before you're sucker punched. Sound familiar? It should do.

 

While I agree America is no angel I would sooner we locked suspects up indefinately if it means avoiding another 7/7 or 9/11.

[extremetexanfan]

Trying to fix the terrorist problem is one thing. Being paranoid about it is another.

[Crocefisso]

Trying to fix the terrorist problem is one thing. Being paranoid about it is another.

Indeed.

[chenw]

Removing a plant with Weedkiller would eventually lead to another sprout. Removing the soil around the plant would kill the plant for good.

 

Stopping terrorism as it occurs will never be as effective as removing the reason for them to become terrorists in the first place.

 

For every Terrorism law you introduce, better terrorists will eventually work around them.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Trying to fix the terrorist problem is one thing. Being paranoid about it is another.

 

Paranoia can be a healthy thing especially in this day and age. Ignorance is what gets people killed. If another terroist atrocity occurs you'll be one of the first to point your finger at your government saying 'Why did you let this happen?'

[Will H]

Uh... what? Ginger_Warrior was referring to Britain when he said 'here'. As I said, we haven't had to detain for longer than 14 days since 2007, and the threat of terrorism is far smaller now than it was back then. There's no rational reason to detain for longer than 14 days now, let alone indefinitely. America's own interests includes not being hypocritical when it tries to criticise the human rights situation of another, because otherwise nobody will take them seriously. It's been bad enough with Guantanimo Bay and the repression of the Occupy protests, this is just making it even worse.

 

Sorry my post seems confusing. I was meaning that I wish Britain would adopt a similar approach to the OP. As a Briton, you know as well as I do about the wet lettuces we have for our own government. We are at the moment a pathetic nation that can't even stand up to Europe in a tough and dignified manner. The threat of terrorism is never small, no matter what. That's called letting your guard down before you're sucker punched. Sound familiar? It should do.

 

While I agree America is no angel I would sooner we locked suspects up indefinately if it means avoiding another 7/7 or 9/11.

 

Well, I actually think that the UK government's doing an OK job, considering the situation, but we should probably leave this particular discussion for a different thread.

 

I think policies like indefinite detention actually contribute to the chances of more terrorist attacks. It becomes a lot easier to convince people to fight against the intervention of a country on a human rights mission when that country has a poor human rights record. Hypocrisy on that kind of scale just doesn't help the moral standing or safety of a country.

[Alg]

Stopping terrorism as it occurs will never be as effective as removing the reason for them to become terrorists in the first place.

Unfortunately, it's probably impossible to remove every reason for terrorism without causing problems down the line. The best a government can hope to do is minimize the damage/threat.

There probably isn't going to be any quick fix to this, or even many long term solutions that don't lead to more bloodshed. Unless we invent a time machine and somehow prevent the last ~century (Or more, my knowledge of 16-18th century history is lacking) of the Middle East being the rest of the world's chew toy. Even then, you'd probably have other terrorists, like Anonymous :razz:

[Giordano]

The two biggest steps to stop Islamic terrorism against the West is to cut off all support to Israel and remove our commerence of the Middle East.

 

Pigs will fly before that happens though.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Did you notice the way we marched into Lybia but conveniently ignored far worse atrocities in Syria? I can't imagine why that would be...

[iamcoool11]

I'm neutral on this bill until they actually start yanking people off of the street because that's the guy who inconvenienced him 6 years ago.

 

I don't think American citizens don't have much to worry here, I've never heard of someone getting dragged off by the Patriot Act. If you keep your mouth shut, you would be alright. I would sense this bill affects more people overseas rather than people within America.

 

Not that I like this thing, but what else can we do?

 

While I agree America is no angel I would sooner we locked suspects up indefinately if it means avoiding another 7/7 or 9/11.

 

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

-Benjamin Franklin

[Alg]

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

-Benjamin Franklin

Ah, but can you truly have freedom without security? :twisted:

[Giordano]

I'm neutral on this bill until they actually start yanking people off of the street because that's the guy who inconvenienced him 6 years ago.

 

I don't think American citizens don't have much to worry here, I've never heard of someone getting dragged off by the Patriot Act. If you keep your mouth shut, you would be alright. I would sense this bill affects more people overseas rather than people within America.

 

Not that I like this thing, but what else can we do?

 

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

-Benjamin Franklin

 

Hey, I'm just coming from experience. Both my parents lived through the junta era of Argentina, during the Dirty War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War). None of my family, extended family, or their friends were mysteriously gone or even arrested.

 

America isn't even in dire danger: American residents don't have to worry about misuse of this. As I said, foreigners I think would have bigger problems with this.

[Guest jrhairychest]

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

-Benjamin Franklin

Ah, but can you truly have freedom without security? :twisted:

 

Exactly. :thumbup:.

[iamcoool11]

He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

-Benjamin Franklin

Ah, but can you truly have freedom without security? :twisted:

Perhaps you can't, but that's beside the point. The point is, we have enough security; they already took enough of our freedoms.

 

@Giordano

The whole point of America is that you can say whatever, express whatever, you know? This law would give the government the power to indefinitely imprison anyone, for essentially any reason they want. This is a crazy mockery of everything America stands for, not to mention unconstitutional. And our government has proved its willingness to abuse its power in the past.

[Giordano]

@Giordano

The whole point of America is that you can say whatever, express whatever, you know? This law would give the government the power to indefinitely imprison anyone, for essentially any reason they want. This is a crazy mockery of everything America stands for, not to mention unconstitutional. And our government has proved its willingness to abuse its power in the past.

I'm not defending the bill nor our government mob, but I'm being a realist. Countless others countries have issues the same degrees often under worse administrations, and the majority of residents have survived them.

[sarg1010]

So whatever became of this law? Ignorant I know but...

[Giordano]

So whatever became of this law? Ignorant I know but...

Curious about it too.

 

Bet it's down in the water; typical scare off.

[H2PM]

Obama signed NDAA on New Years Eve.

 

But interestingly enough, there's a new legislation trying to go through congress that would potentially undo this act.

 

Also, don't feel ignorant for not knowing, the mass media hasn't been reporting on this bill anyways.

And when I refer to mass media, I mean the news sources people usually watch such as NBC, Fox News, MSNBC, The Today Show, Good Morning America, etc...