The Back Room

[Nexaduro]

It teaches you how to use logic circuits; how the different gates work and how to apply them in order to get them to do what you want. Logic circuits are among other things used in automation an electronics, and the principle is used in programming.

 

And the video was just me showing how to make a NOT gate, which is essentially the complex circuit equivalent of a single bit compared to a file.

Given the whole 'infinite circuit' thing, I don't think I would trust you to crimp a wire right.

[Resistance]

http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Redstone_Circuits

 

I read all of that in 15 minutes. Please explain how minecraft is superior.

[Corvus]

It teaches you how to use logic circuits; how the different gates work and how to apply them in order to get them to do what you want. Logic circuits are among other things used in automation an electronics, and the principle is used in programming.

 

And the video was just me showing how to make a NOT gate, which is essentially the complex circuit equivalent of a single bit compared to a file.

It teaches you how to make logic circuits in such a way that your end product at best would end up not working, and at worst straight up start on fire/melt, if you actually made the thing in real life. I am very sure that I know what logic circuits are, as I am studying Computer Engineering. Additionally what little correct information Minecraft can teach on logic circuits just happens to be the sort of stuff that is taught much more by pretty much any other means.(not even going to get into the fact of how I am fairly sure there are no programming languages that use logic circuits, as that is the sort of thing you use an HDL for)

[The_Mather1]

Have you ever worked with logic ICs? Because they pretty much work that way, by just connecting the out and in pins with 5 or 12 volt signals depending on the type of IC (and of course VCC and GND).

There are no languages that use the circuits themselves, unless you count adding logic ICs to circuits that include a BASIC stamp, but most use the functions, just with ! instead of the NOT prefix.

 

http://www.minecraft...dstone_Circuits

 

I read all of that in 15 minutes. Please explain how minecraft is superior.

You actually remember it an hour later.

[Corvus]

Have you ever worked with logic ICs? Because they pretty much work that way, by just connecting the out and in pins with 5 or 12 volt signals depending on the type of IC (and of course VCC and GND).

There are no languages that use the circuits themselves, unless you count adding logic ICs to circuits that include a BASIC stamp, but most use the functions, just with ! instead of the NOT prefix.

 

http://www.minecraft...dstone_Circuits

 

I read all of that in 15 minutes. Please explain how minecraft is superior.

You actually remember it an hour later.

 

...

 

What?

 

As I just mentioned I have plenty of experience with such things as I am studying that. Just to point out the most glaring issue, there is no possible way to perform any operation that requires more than a single bit as an input using only NOT gates without causing severe issues in the circuit that would render the final result inoperable by any set of standards. And designing IC logic is probably the most inefficient way to teach someone how to use programming languages. (They are pretty much fundamentally different)

[The_Mather1]

NOT1+NOT2=NAND

NOT1+NOT2->NOT=AND

 

(NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)=OR

(NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)->NOT=NOR

 

((NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)->NOT)+(NOT1+NOT2->NOT)=XOR

((NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)->NOT)+(NOT1+NOT2->NOT)->NOT=XNOR

 

For the record; + means two outputs go to the same input, -> means the following is the input, parentheses mean the same thing as they do in math.

 

 

To simplify XOR, that's OR+NAND and XNOR is OR+NAND->NOT.

[Corvus]

NOT1+NOT2=NAND

NOT1+NOT2->NOT=AND

 

(NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)=OR

(NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)->NOT=NOR

 

((NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)->NOT)+(NOT1+NOT2->NOT)=XOR

((NOT1->NOT)+(NOT2->NOT)->NOT)+(NOT1+NOT2->NOT)->NOT=XNOR

 

For the record; + means two outputs go to the same input, -> means the following is the input, parentheses mean the same thing as they do in math.

 

 

To simplify XOR, that's OR+NAND and XNOR is OR+NAND->NOT.

1) All of those circuits end up driving 0.5 given certain inputs which is not a valid input to anything (for example Or(1,0) should equal 1, when your implementation would be outputting .5[the voltage between 0 and 1])

2)You are driving currents through the components orders of magnitude higher than what they are rated for (IE you are putting several amps through a device intended to support at most several mA) all because each and every one of those circuits has some condition where its a short circuit.

[The_Mather1]

3) The components each restore the signal to 5v, because that's why they have a VCC.

 

Just tell me, how else would a NOT gate convert a 0 signal to a 1? Draw power from thin air?

[Corvus]

3) The components each restore the signal to 5v, because that's why they have a VCC.

 

Just tell me, how else would a NOT gate convert a 0 signal to a 1? Draw power from thin air?

 

Yes, but you are forgetting that the NOT gate also has to convert a 1 to a 0, in which case it opens a drain to Ground. So your combinational logic is connecting Vcc to Ground, and as any electrical circuit does in such a situation you end up with a voltage gradient between the two, so on average your output would be 2.5 V in the given situation (depending on the placement of the connection it could be any value between 0 and 5V except the opposite connection would give the complement, causing it all to average out) Yes in theory you could operate a not gate without a drain, its just that the operation would be extremely unpredictable due to enviornmental variables. (and by extremely unpredictable, I mean completely. Due to enviornmental factors, there is no way to tell what value any given part of the circuit will have if you leave it floating [no inputs], as certain circumstances can cause it to even increase in voltage, so you can never trust a circuit node that does not have something actively giving it a value.)

 

Edit: Also figured to clarify: on such an inverter, inputs of 0V-1V output ~5V; and inputs of 3.8V-5V output ~0V; Inputs of 1-3.8V give floating outputs which could be literally anything (general values, different components will have different specific values, but there will always be a large margin in the middle of undefined values)

Edited November 17, 2012 by wyvren2000

[The_Mather1]

That drain is nowhere near a perfect conductor, so the ground will stay at 5 volts less than the VCC. If it were a perfect conductor, what would happen is that the power supply would run dry, or the entire circuit would slowly overheat and fry itself.

Whether you use a battery or a DC power supply, what it generates is not universal voltage, but voltage differential, so even if the voltage in the GND rises compared to an actual ground, the voltage for VCC will rise correspondingly.

[Corvus]

All true, and all completely unrelated to what I just said.

 

Your 'logic gates' all have the problem that at some point, both VCC and Ground are connected to the output pin, and basic physics would tell you that along the path between the two you would get a voltage gradient (the voltage slowly changes from one of the two extremes to the other), and your output connection has to be somewhere in that gradient so you end up with a value between the two depending on the location, but as you can reverse the two inputs it will average to exactly halfway between the two voltages. Additionally the components involved are designed with the assumption that the connections between gates are never a complete circuit (the input pins to logic gates are more or less an open circuit and draw almost no current), which your circuit violates by connecting both VCC and Ground at the same time driving a massive current through the Not gates which they are not designed for.

[The_Mather1]

Are you trying to say that ICs don't work or that using multiple gates is the same as using one gate several times as hard? I can't quite tell, but it doesn't make sense either way.

[Corvus]

No, to put it in the simplest form: Each node (wire connecting the gates) can have at most 1 gate outputting 0 or 1 onto it at any given time unless they are redundant(output the same value as each other in all possible circumstances). (The only situations where you can have more than 1 gate connected to a node as an output involve Tri-state logic)

[The_Mather1]

If that was true, then how the hell could we use Op-Amps? They work by having pretty much half the pins connected to the same wire.

Also I know I had more than one output connected to the same input in several of the circuits I made with BASIC stamps, hell I even know I did that with some logic gate to makeshift a set/reset, don't remember which logic gate that was though, other than that it wasn't a NOT gate of course, cause that would have taken more than one chip.

[Resistance]

Oh God, if only you had spent those 730 hours on learning a new skill.

[Corvus]

If that was true, then how the hell could we use Op-Amps? They work by having pretty much half the pins connected to the same wire.

Also I know I had more than one output connected to the same input in several of the circuits I made with BASIC stamps, hell I even know I did that with some logic gate to makeshift a set/reset, don't remember which logic gate that was though, other than that it wasn't a NOT gate of course, cause that would have taken more than one chip.

Op-Amps are analog circuits, not Digital circuits, and as such they are designed to operate in complete circuits. Analog circuits have a very different set of rules than Digital circuits, and even digital circuits can operate while breaking the digital circuit rules its just that you cannot reliably expect such uses to perform as intended.

[The_Mather1]

Oh God, if only you had spent those 730 hours on learning a new skill.

I've learned more Japanese from watching anime than I would have by studying it for the same amount of time.

[Alg]

Oh God, if only you had spent those 730 hours on learning a new skill.

I've learned more Japanese from watching anime than I would have by studying it for the same amount of time.

Alternatively, you had fun.

[Kimberly]

Had to clear a few posts off the topic. If you notice them missing and you disagree with it, please PM me.

 

Just a general comment: please stick to arguing ideas.

[Resistance]

Had to clear a few posts off the topic. If you notice them missing and you disagree with it, please PM me.

 

Just a general comment: please stick to arguing ideas.

I agree completely, personal attacks don't contribute anything to an argument. They're just poor form.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Kimberly
Shhhhhh...

[archimage_a]

Just letting people know that I am now ignoring all posts from the tavern to avoid getting banned (Yup thats right, to preserve my ability to view posts I am now not viewing posts).

 

All games are inherantly cancelled.

 

For further information please message me via a non-tip it method.

 

Sorry for any inconvenience this causes.

[Nexaduro]

Oh God, if only you had spent those 730 hours on learning a new skill.

I've learned more Japanese from watching anime than I would have by studying it for the same amount of time.

Alternatively, you had fun.

Which is counteracted by the fact that if he ever foists his Wapanese onto anyone he'll be shot.

[Earth]

Well. Wonderful.

Means we can't do most of the games we like.

Whoever's been reporting arch? Thanks for using a nailgun on the Taverns coffin.

[Nexaduro]

Well. Wonderful.

Means we can't do most of the games we like.

Whoever's been reporting arch? Thanks for using a nailgun on the Taverns coffin.

Who do you [bleep]ing think?

 

Who ever reports anyone here?

 

It's Resistance.

 

Congratulations Hex, you've finally killed the Tavern.

 

I would add to whoever deletes this post, I really am disappointed with you folks. There should be no pretense of universal, fair hearings on the internet; someone who pops up directly after a rash of flame-spam from new accounts, following the recent and well-deserved banning of a longtime troll and wannabe-member of our little community (one of which expressed interest in repenting and joining a game), and with their first post tries to join an obscure and niche roleplaying group within an almost completely unrelated runescape fansite should at least strike you as suspicious. Of course, there's no REAL evidence, since his IP address is completely different, as it's not like that can be changed like said banned member was discussing with a member of this subforum before he was kicked out. And certainly his displaying of the same mannerisms, expressing of the same interests, and trolling THE SAME PEOPLE is just a coincidence. I'd say he admitted he was Hex in an IRC game, but there's no record of that.

 

You can't even recognize the trolling in his current posts. I'm downright ashamed to have ever been among your ranks, in the last year you seem to declined to a terrible degree. Or maybe I've just become a bit wiser.

 

Say hi to Randox for me.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Randox

[Alg]

I'd say he admitted he was Hex in an IRC game, but there's no record of that.

There are, however, witnesses. Even if that's not enough, the rampant trolling should be... Or would be, if it happened outside of games.

 

Normally, I'd at least pretend to be reasonable here, but it's frighteningly easy for a few members to kill off an entire subforum through reports and I think we'd all like to avoid that if we can.