Believe me... I've taken enough classes to know everything that is in those 8 minutes of videos.

Aren't you a freshman in college?

The world is too complex to have been created by chance.

 

Ah, the old irreducible complexity argument. It states that complex things require an intelligent designer. The problem is that designers are inherently complex. Thus that argument leads to infinite regression. Who created god? Who created the creator of god? Etc.

 

As for chance, vastly improbable things happen every day. What are the chances that a particular leaf will fall in a particular spot? One in a billion? Does that mean that every leaf is guided to rest by some invisible hand? No, it just happened that way. What are the chances I would be alive today? Assuming very conservatively 1 in a million for my parents to conceive me, then the same for my parents to be conceived back 50 generations is, again very conservatively, 1.0 x 10^300. That's a google cubed. Am I some kind of incredible miracle baby? Of course not. But I am very grateful to be alive.

There's additional arguments to that too. Argument from poor design is often cited - e.g. the throat/airway passages that allow for choking, the blind-spot caused by the optic nerve (and the optic nerve in itself, since its inefficient), the necessity of glasses, etc.

There's additional arguments to that too. Argument from poor design is often cited - e.g. the throat/airway passages that allow for choking, the blind-spot caused by the optic nerve (and the optic nerve in itself, since its inefficient), the necessity of glasses, etc.

 

Give me something else that isn't "it happened by chance," and I might believe you.

 

Also, things used to be perfect. If you read in Genesis, there is a point in time where life actually was made hard for humans. People didn't get sick, they didn't die, and weeds didn't grow.

What's so unbelievable about chance? You're claiming to know an awful lot about the Universe without anything beyond scripture to back you up.

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What's so unbelievable about chance? You're claiming to know an awful lot about the Universe without anything beyond scripture to back you up.

 

Well... Since I am *clearly* an ignorant [wagon], I am done with this topic. Faith is all that one should need. If one day when I die, and there is no Heaven or Hell. Why should I care? I'm dead. But if there is, and all of the unbelievers are in the latter of the two. Maybe I'll just smile.

 

 

 

Mods: Feel free to edit this as you see fit.

What's so unbelievable about chance? You're claiming to know an awful lot about the Universe without anything beyond scripture to back you up.

 

Well... Since I am *clearly* an ignorant [wagon], I am done with this topic. Faith is all that one should need. If one day when I die, and there is no Heaven or Hell. Why should I care? I'm dead. But if there is, and all of the unbelievers are in the latter of the two. Maybe I'll just smile.

>smiling at the sake of the non-believers who are burning in hell for eternity

 

loving Christianity right there

What's so unbelievable about chance? You're claiming to know an awful lot about the Universe without anything beyond scripture to back you up.

 

Well... Since I am *clearly* an ignorant [wagon], I am done with this topic. Faith is all that one should need. If one day when I die, and there is no Heaven or Hell. Why should I care? I'm dead. But if there is, and all of the unbelievers are in the latter of the two. Maybe I'll just smile.

Vilified attack misconstruing atheistic beliefs, leaving what could only be interpreted as a threat. It's nice to see an illustrative example of theists at work, thanks.

Well... Since I am *clearly* an ignorant [wagon], I am done with this topic. Faith is all that one should need. If one day when I die, and there is no Heaven or Hell. Why should I care? I'm dead. But if there is, and all of the unbelievers are in the latter of the two. Maybe I'll just smile.

So you believe in hell, and you smile at the prospect of unbelievers burning there. Your god is a moral monster and so are you. If there is a hell, I'd rather go there than be in the presence of such monsters. Suck on that, Pascal.

Oh, new argument? If I was theistic, I'd be misotheistic too - should the deity in question be Yahweh as according to scripture.

What's so unbelievable about chance? You're claiming to know an awful lot about the Universe without anything beyond scripture to back you up.

 

Well... Since I am *clearly* an ignorant [wagon], I am done with this topic. Faith is all that one should need. If one day when I die, and there is no Heaven or Hell. Why should I care? I'm dead. But if there is, and all of the unbelievers are in the latter of the two. Maybe I'll just smile.

 

 

 

Mods: Feel free to edit this as you see fit.

I imagine that if there is some kind of diety out there that they would much rather have their subjects not do anything than blindly devote their lives to something else. Remember that there were hundreds of religions before Christianity, and Christianity itself is broken into many sects. What makes your religion any more correct than others?

See, this is why this subject becomes so frustrating. There is no way to simply mention your belief structure without it being dissected, attacked, and critically viewed. It eventually pushes the people into a corner, until they get so upset that they leave dramatically. And then people go, "oh hueheuhuehe just another theist at work" when...what else was supposed to happen when people are so damn critical and harsh. :/

Well, they could leave without that "I'll be laughing at you while you're burning in Hell" thing.

See, this is why this subject becomes so frustrating. There is no way to simply mention your belief structure without it being dissected, attacked, and critically viewed. It eventually pushes the people into a corner, until they get so upset that they leave dramatically. And then people go, "oh hueheuhuehe just another theist at work" when...what else was supposed to happen when people are so damn critical and harsh. :/

 

One should not engage in such a debate if they are not willing to have their belief structure subjected to scrutiny. I will try to avoid personal attacks, but I will not tiptoe respectfully around the issues.

lol @ all the arguments from complexity/beauty.

 

And this:

It's impossible to know definitively if there is indeed a "higher power", so engaging in debates about it is useless.

There weren't any personal attacks. If someone makes some dramatic exit from the thread because they don't like being criticized (which you're asking for if you partake in the debate), that's no one's fault but their own. And that should go for any side of the debate. I hope the moderating team doesn't spoil the thread for the rest of us because some people get offended by getting questioned.

Frankly, I think OT is mature enough to have strong worded debates without the thread being locked. Arguments can be fun IMO. If you get offended then... Ok, you're offended. Big whoop.

 

If god "created" everything, and gave us free will and thought, why would I worship something that punishes the use of said free will?

 

Also, "In the beginning, there was nothing... And god said let there be light!... And there was still nothing, you could just see it better."

I hope the moderating team doesn't spoil the thread for the rest of us because some people get offended by getting questioned.

 

The thread would only be locked if it had to constantly be cleaned for the same thing. So far that isn't the case. I hope it's clear that myself and any other mod who take part of this discussion are posting as users would -- not staff. :/ You can (or anyone else!) PM me if you have any further questions on that subject.

 

If god "created" everything, and gave us free will and thought, why would I worship something that punishes the use of said free will?

 

I struggled with this and similar doubts when my mother passed away. I still have periods of time when my family says to me, "God saved her from suffering and we should be happy." Whenever someone told me that - someone even had the balls to tell me that right after she passed away - I wanted to punch them in the face. I knew they were trying to comfort me but god damn that was the last thing I wanted to hear.

 

When I was a kid taking communion lessons or whatever (honestly forget what it was called right now), they explained the free will/predestination conundrum like this: God supposedly created us all with set natures. We were free to act within our heart's desires within that nature. That people are all normal regardless of these natures, but how they behave determines whether or not they ever reach "Heaven". It made no sense to me as a kid. It still doesn't really make sense to me. Maybe if a theologist explained it to me or something it would, but it's one of the things I struggle with when I can even be bothered to come to terms with my faith or lack of it.

Never understood the point of a religious debate. No one ever comes out thinking "Man, I'm glad I debated religion today. I now understand the other side and am a better person because of it!" So, because of that I'm going to say my view of religion and then duck out to never post here again.

 

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I'm non religious, although I wouldn't say I identify with atheism due to it practically being a religion in itself. I would say I am apathetic towards religion; its presence, or lack thereof has no bearing on my daily life. I've never really believed in any religion, I've just looked at it in the same way I would a work of fiction. That said, I would be pleasantly surprised if there turned out to be a benevolent deity. It certainly seems to me a better alternative to nothingness after death. Plus it would be satisfying to be able to know life's secrets.

 

If there is a deity like this, I don't think its prerogative is to be worshiped. If that's what it wanted, surely it would have shown itself or given some more concrete evidence of its existence than a book that has been rewritten countless times over the ages.

 

I think the most likely case of a higher power would be one that has left us to our own devices; moved on and perhaps forgotten us. The other option would be perhaps we are observed as a sort of science experiment, maybe even by a race of omnipotent life.

 

Without all that speculation though, I would say that we were created because of a "perfect storm" of sorts, which isn't too hard to believe with the scale of even the observed universe. To those who want to believe it was an act of God, all the more power to them. As long as they are respectful to others, I'll respect their belief.

@Skull

 

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: religious discussions and debates are important because religions actively involve themselves in many social things, regardless of whether others want it or not. I’ll illustrate: it’s in our educational systems (intelligent design/creationism endorsed in classrooms, or at least some opposition against evolution), it’s in our jurisdictions (laws regarding adultery, prostitution, abortion, etc. – some are justified though), it’s in congress (let’s just say some of the actions, or inaction are religiously inspired), it’s in an individual’s social networks (other family members, friends, etc.) – it has the ability to exert a lot of social pressure for political/religious purposes. If we don’t make a stance and simply ‘accept’ religion – including fundamentalism, it becomes very problematic.

 

On a more relevant note, I’d say you’re probably an agnostic atheist but you might have some misconceptions about atheism – or maybe you’re an apatheist. If you’re an apatheist, then good for you – but I’m concerned about whether my beliefs are true. I would not accept a proposition unless I’m given credible evidence, or strong argument. I can’t think of a single argument in favour of the existence of deities that would not be debunked with relative ease (I’d say that personal revelation is too subjective, claims which leave room for ambiguity should be critically examined and viciously scrutinized, and flawed argumentation is just silly for obvious reasons).

 

 

@Kimberly

 

I struggle to accept the concepts of the Christian ‘god’ because if it’s true that the ‘god’ exists, it must be either unwilling to help, unable to help, or willing and able to help but chooses not to – in other words, the problem of evil. I’ll note that you make reference to free-will, but I won’t bore you with criticisms of the free-will defense unless you’d ask for elaboration.

 

… this is a little off-topic, but I’ll clarify on why I ask things like ‘why doesn’t God heal amputees?’ – it’s a simple question that removes ambiguity. In cases like healing cancer with prayer and medicine, there’s ambiguity as to whether it was coincidental or whether it was the active intervention by a sentient ‘higher power’. If we remove the ambiguity, such as in the example of amputees, we can reasonably assert that God does not heal them. In effect, it’s evidence of the failure of prayer.

 

… to drift even further off-topic, I don’t understand why it’s easier to believe in a God when there’s so many problems with the concept – even at its most basic levels, like the concept of omnipotence. But then again, reality is literally incredible – i.e. to be so remarkable as to inspire disbelief.

I personally don't believe there is any tangible argument for the existence of a god or any 'master plan'. I'll concede that there's no argument to say the opposite either, but logically the burden of proof should be for the existence of something, not the absence of it.

 

If you choose to believe in gods/God/Allah/whatever, more power to you. Your choice, I genuinely hope it goes well for you and it makes you happier or at least more contented.

I would just like to put up that I hate how believers seem to think they have the exclusive rights to be offened. Why should a non-believer conform and respect their religion, when clearly the believer doesn't respect the non-believer.

... there needs to be more options in the poll. 'I believe in a loving creator God' 'I believe in a malevolent monster deity' 'I believe in an apathetic God' 'I believe God is nature/oneself/etc.'

I would just like to put up that I hate how believers seem to think they have the exclusive rights to be offened. Why should a non-believer conform and respect their religion, when clearly the believer doesn't respect the non-believer.

 

 

I'm on the fence on religion, but man I hate many atheists with a passion. They are some of the most bigoted people I know. They can often be so blinded by logic and not understand the concept of belief, that they will be just as offensive, pushy and intolerant as they claim religious people to be.

 

From personal experience, atheists are actually even more pushy and offended by the subject of religion than theists are by the topic of atheism. Atheists will often take their misunderstandings of a religion to an extreme, without actually knowing what they are talking about.

 

I'm not on either side, but hell, if I support any side in arguments it's usually the theists simply because atheists can be such arses.

 

In reply to bedman, I actually see non beleivers who get offended more than believers. Apart from extremists which are such a minuscule minority, I find atheists often so offended any time anything religious happens in public. Just as athiests can express their views, so can theists.