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how many warning points do you have?


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#141
Resistance
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Just a reminder everyone, publicly discussing the specifics of warnings and/or bans (ie: posting screenshots of your warning PMs) is not allowed.

See the discussion rules in the first post.


Why?

I'm not sure why they're supposed to be secret, is it just so admins can ban whoever they want without any sort of consistency - just ban the people they don't like, and when people compare they see that they are being unjustly targeted/let off easily?
Seems ridiculous

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#142
Alg
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I know you have that whole "agent of chaos" thing going on, but picking a fight with the mods in public isn't particularly wise... :razz:

#143
nine naked men
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nine naked men

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"you wanna know how i got these scars? by being real dang angry on an internet forum"

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#144
Resistance
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I think it's a legitimate point, regardless of whether they're in power they should have a sense of integrity when it comes to the management of such a large forum. It's a strange feeling that you're not allowed to publicly criticise a ruling which is intentionally there simply to prevent anybody actually knowing what others have been banned for. It's even worse when there's a chilling effect of anybody actually calling the admins out on this sort of thing, they may even choose to censor this post (even though it doesn't break any rules) simply because they can't stand criticism.

Pretending that it's somehow not right to give your views in a forum (OT) dedicated to discussing opinions, in a thread pertaining exactly to the topic is preposterous. Seemingly, the attitude among tip.iters we need to tread carefully around any subject for fear that it might offend the malevolent and autocratic moderation and that they are likely to take any discussion about whether they are doing anything right as a personal attack against them.
While I don't feel the moderation is particularly malevolent, I just feel that by not allowing discussion, for no real reason - you're just trying to prevent us from comparing to see if there is a level of consistency in the moderation or whether you're just simply adding rules as a display of power.

As I see it, there are two possible occurrences.

1.) We are not allowed to see it, despite nothing shady going on. This is a fallacy because there would be no reason to hide it if nothing shady were going on .

2.) We are not allowed to see it because something shady is going on, and the moderation doesn't want us to know about it.

Either way, without letting us discuss the topic - moderation has effectively created a chilling effect surrounding the discussion of warnings, which is awfully suspicious because there would be no reason to. I can understand the logic in not criticising admins for your warning, but to put a complete blanket ban on people discuss their warnings is effectively saying that warnings come from the autocratic moderation and that if we are to discuss whether we feel it's right or not we will be banned. Frankly, it seems obvious to me that something is being covered up but since we're not even allowed to discuss it and make that decision ourselves reasonably we are stuck in the dark.

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#145
Randox
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It's even worse when there's a chilling effect of anybody actually calling the admins out on this sort of thing, they may even choose to censor this post (even though it doesn't break any rules) simply because they can't stand criticism.

I'm really sorry that I am leading with this, but I think it's important if you want a an open discussion about our policy that there have to be some ground rules. The first one is that this kind of line, stating that your post is not breaking the rules and hiding it just means we don't like criticism, is hostile and totally not conducive to having any kind of discussion on the matter. I am perfectly happy to discuss the issue; I believe it's important that people do know where we are coming from, how we operate, and see if there are changes we need to make. I can't do this if you are going to attempt to tie my hands, because you will force me onto the defensive all the time, and I'd rather not waste both our time on that particular back and fourth. For my part, I will also do my best to not put anyone on the spot, on the defensive, and I will do my best to take everything that I reasonably can as constructive criticism (provided that it is in fact constructive) and not take things personally, going on the defensive when I don't need to. I hope this is agreeable and fair.

My second point to lead off with is also something that I know people just love to hear. The reason we do not allow public discussion of moderator actions is because the matter is not open for public debate. Now, I am happy to discuss that policy if people are willing to engage in reasonable conversation over the matter. The current reasoning is that it serves no purpose, since ultimately the decision is the sole responsibility of the moderation team, and getting people riled up about the warnings only does harm. Opening it up to public debate hinders our ability to maintain consistency (moderators are selected in part for their ability to at the very least recognize when they can't make a fair judgement, and can hand it off to someone who can. The court of public opinion is one of emotions, not logic or policy), and allowing open discussion means having all our rulings second guessed all the time, which means we might as well not make rulings ourselves at all.

On the flip side, I actually wrote a while ago about how I don't like operating as a closed box. It opens the door for us to be able to enforce the rules at a whim, and I've spent many hours since I started moderating for this site in particular wondering if there was a way we could be more open about what we do without compromising peoples privacy or inviting attacks from trolls and anti-rules users who would twist our words in an attempt to get people riled up over nothing but imaginary injustices.

A while ago I actually created a poll for exactly this reason (which I believe perhaps one person who posts in OT responded to, and none from Tavern). I was specifically looking for suggestions to increase our transparency, which I did not get, though I got interesting feedback in other areas, since it was suggested I ask more than one question. I'll post it here if anyone is interested, though given the time, I am not doing it tonight, and I will not be back probably until late Tuesday.

I am also, for those interested, working on the concept for one or two more articles as late follow up to the one I wrote a while back. I had intended to write more, but my time and public subject matter are both limited, and my urge to write only comes when it wants to. I am not around tomorrow at all so far as I know, and I am unsure when I will be around on Tuesday, so I'll have to resume this then. In an effort to better convey my position while actually getting sleep (and also considering that I am more pleasant to deal with, and I write better, during the day), I am going to post that article here, because I suspect that people who don't venture into General probably also do not read the times. This was very much written from the heart, and I still feel this way. The original can be found here, and quoted for your convenience:

The World of a Moderator

Written by Randox and edited by tripsis


So by way of introduction to this article, my (web) name is Randox (Random Paradox for all those people who want to ask me where it comes from), and I joined the Tip.It staff last November as a moderator, but I have also been moderating for Jagex for a number of years now as well. When I set out to write this article, my mission was to cover at least some of the aspects of being a moderator that most people never get a chance to see. My mission is not to make you like us any more than you already do, and certainly not any less, but merely to explain some things, and maybe entertain you a bit while I am at it.
Moderators work in their own legal system

This is a pretty big one for me, and it plays into a fairly large perception flaw that we all exercise multiple times a day, normally without realizing it. When we analyze our own actions, we justify them, and we can do this because we know the complete circumstances surrounding the choices we make, because we are self-aware. When we analyze the decisions of others, we rarely have anything close to the background information we have on ourselves, so our default setting is to assume that everyone does everything they do, because they want to do it.
Something I have found out about how many moderation teams work is their legal system. While it’s obviously not a direct analogue to a real world justice system, the mechanics are pretty similar. Without the boring details, the forum moderators act as council for the defense and prosecution, they deliberate like a jury, and ultimately someone has to be a judge. You also have your appeals court, and your supreme court/lawmakers. Now, we certainly have more leniencies then a real justice system could have, but we also have to be fair, or we become wholly ineffective at our jobs, and would actually create problems.
One of the most frustrating situations when being a moderator is when someone does something stupid; breaking the rules in a really silly way, and then that darn fairness comes in. A terrific example is troll victims, where the skilled trolls will provoke people into breaking the rules while staying in bounds themselves. You know the troll is the cause of your problems even though they haven’t broken any rules, but their victim has, and you can only give the victims so much slack before you have to step in. It’s the sort of thing police dramas have all the time where they know who the guilty party is, but they need to find a way to bring them down fairly and with minimal collateral damage, and sadly, it’s not a Hollywood invention. Real police forces, just like online moderator teams, also have to deal with this kind of issue.
Ultimately what I am talking about is doing things you wish you didn’t have to do. I’ve seen countless cases around the internet where the moderator is angry at the people not because they broke the rules, but because they did something silly and pointless, and now the moderator is being forced to deal with it, when they know the person they are warning/muting/banning doesn’t really deserve it. They just needed to take a 5 minute breather and everything would have been fine.
Moderators have fun too

Have you ever thought you had gotten to know someone, perhaps someone you work with, or only know from school, and then you finally get a chance to see them out of the office, at a party, or even one on one? People act differently around different groups of people, and moderators are not an exception. Now, we are always encouraged to continue interacting with the community in the way we always have, and many moderators manage to pull this off fairly nicely. It’s actually pretty critical if you don’t want a team that is widely despised and distrusted. Your moderators need to be part of the community they moderate, they can’t just stand on a pedestal and look down on people. Moderators must continue to be part of the community they work in to be effective.
But the understanding you get when you see how they interact with each other is always a learning experience, because you get to see not only the drama, but the bonding that can only happen out of the public eye. I’ve always wished I could showcase this kind of behind the scenes moderator behaviour, but alas, it only works if people aren’t watching. Take my word for it though; it’s generally pretty amusing to watch, and a lot of fun to participate in.
The Opinions

Once you become a moderator, you’re no longer representing just yourself, but your team, and the entity that you moderate on behalf of. When you see me on the Tip.It forums, I am representing the administration. When I am with the administration, I represent the interests of the users because that’s who I am working for. I hope that our working for the users is obvious, because what we do would be pretty pointless without the rest of you. You are the community. The interest of the site, as in its continued existence, is a natural extension of that, since for the community to survive, we need to have a place to be a community.
People notice it more on the RuneScape site though, where people mistakenly believe that all the moderators are Jagex fan boys. If there are actually any of those, they aren’t posting in the mod forums about it, you can trust me on that. That’s not to say that the moderators are anti Jagex either, but when you’ve weeded out all the people who react before looking at the big picture, what your left with is a large bunch of people who agree or disagree for generally well-reasoned points. You also get the shifting representation, since obviously there isn’t much point to representing Jagex to their face. That’d be pretty dull. So on the mod forums, the mods represent whatever they feel are the communities' best interests, just like our moderators and administrators do here.
The killer though is that it’s hard to believe, and impossible to really understand, until you get to see it first-hand. But my hope is that I have been able to shed some light on the aspects of moderating that people rarely get to see, or fully appreciate. If people have questions that I missed, I am certainly open to writing about this again in the future.


So yeah, I'll be back sometime late Tuesday or early Wednesday, and I'll try to at least read some of whatever gets posted after this, before then. I'm also expecting that this will get split off, not garuntees though, but I know the green guys know how I feel about my using mod tools after midnight. Cheers.

#146
Low Levelled
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Good luck to whomever tries to follow that^ post up.

#147
RpgGamer
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I liked this thread til about 4 pages ago

 

Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.




 

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#148
The_Gabe
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I liked this thread til about 4 pages ago


I liked 4 pages ago until this thread.
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#149
Alg
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I liked this thread til about 4 pages ago


I liked 4 pages ago until this thread.

What a damn hipster.

#150
obfuscator
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It's been my experience that even when forums allow discussion and debate about moderator action 90% of the topics end up with moderators just putting their foot down after users refuse to accept that they broke rules. People don't like to admit to their mistakes...so I can understand why TIF administration decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

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#151
Albel
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0 warning post here. Only issues I've ever been called out on was my signature being too big many years ago.

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#152
RpgGamer
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I've had my fair share of warnings, but spamming a thread about warnings with reasons to get warned just seems uneducated.

 

Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.




 

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#153
Low Levelled
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Can you get more than one warning point for a single infraction?

#154
Ginger_Warrior
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Hack someone's account, find out their bank details, and post them here for all of us to see.

I bet we'll find out in minutes.

(No seriously, don't do that)

#155
Randox
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In lieu of no response, I suppose I'll keep my follow up as short as I can (I'm going to write a book). Being in any staff position on this site is a serious time commitment. Also, keeping our work honest is the only way to honor all the time, effort, and passion that has gone into making this site what it is. If we wanted to bully people, there are easier ways to do that then taking on what is essentially a part time job (minus the part where you get paid), and without destroying the legacy of everyone that came before us.

Being more transparent, as we see it, means that we would open ourselves up to privacy issues, and having our rulings governed by the court of public opinion, rather than the actual rules and guidelines we operate under.

By giving the warnings in a one on one situation, we create the best possible environment to reasonably discuss any questions or concerns. Sometimes people don't understand how they broke the rules. Sometimes we misinterpret what was said and give a warning or ban in error. We need an environment where people can be calm and civil to work all this out, which means not having random by standers chip in with their opinions.

Equally as important, the court of public opinion is extremely unfair. Either we would be at the mercy of the whims of whoever could shout the loudest, or we lose any ability to be flexible, to deal with circumstances (such as trolls) or unforeseen situations. We certainly do limit our own flexibility, to ensure that we are being fair, and can't push things too far, but at the same time we keep a little bit of wiggle room. There is already enough paper work that goes into giving someone a warning without needing to add pages long justifications for any deviation from the Standard Operating Procedure. The SOP exists to keep us in line, and prevent power abuse and limit any unfairness, but at the same time it is not a ridged set of rules.

The ideal here really is that for the people who follow the rules, our efforts are entirely invisible. They know we exist because we have public ranks identifying us, but it's not something we want our users to need to be concerned with if they don't have to be (so unless they break the rules).


Anyway, that's about as sweet as I can make it. As promised, here is the questionnaire as well that was done a while back if anyone here is interested. Send it to myself or Tripsis. While I wouldn't take this as a blank check to break the rules in your response (so, it would be helpful if you didn't include lude pictures or a string of racial epithets), we have no interest in taking retribution against people who don't agree with us. This is how we learn and improve.



#156
purpieman2
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I have a grand total of zero

#157
unkn0wnwarrior
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I have zero, as well. I also only have about a dozen posts in 2013, though.

#158
Furah
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I have 1 point, for being too sexual in nature in the relationship advice thread, which I haven't been on in too long.

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#159
muggiwhplar
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I have 1 point, for being too sexual in nature in the relationship advice thread, which I haven't been on in too long.


I wish I got warning points for being too sexy...

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#160
Lose No Hope
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7 from when I was sarcastic and got into multiple arguments. Oh and a few signature violations. Nothing in the past year, though.





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