Mod MMG on RuneScape Micro-Payments

[Den]

That's the thing though. You're using Jagex logic as they say the exact same thing. If I spin the wheel 100 times, I should end up with around 71k Cash, around 22 Small Lamps, Around 13 Medium Lamps and other sellable items/1-2 rare slot items in the form of Cash, Pendant or Dragon Cere.

 

I think we've hit a wall in this discussion though. Sure, you can get more coin rewards and less lamps, but you can also get more lamps and less coins. In the end you are left with approx my statistics. They conclude it's random so it isn't selling exp, but it isn't random enough to convince me.

[Platinum_Myr]

I haven't made statistics of SoF like you, but I would think that your numbers are not too wrong. You have a chance of buying XP through the SoF. But you never have a chance of buying it directly. Because if you spin 50 times and is unlucky you might just end up with a few XP lamps and tons of 1k/5k/cosmetic items. Which is exactly what I said in my original post. Unlikely: Yes. But still it might happen.

 

Wrong. in 50 spins I will get a predictably average amount of xp. The more spins you buy the more likely you will reach the average. Yes, buying one spin will not always net you a lamp, but if I can buy a reasonable size packet of spins (50-100) I will get a predictable amount of xp back. (some in random skills, but most in skills of my choice.

 

The problem isn't whether it is chance, but whether it can be reliably predicted.

 

I know that if I spend 100$ I will get 900 spins which nets me just about 1m xp in the skill of my choice, plus a bunch of xp in random skills (even more now with those pendants!) I can reliably predict the value of the 100$ that I could choose to spend. Yes i cannot get accurate out to 5 decimal places, but I can (if I wanted to) get accurate to within a few hundred k of xp.

 

the predictability is the reason that it is selling xp. Just because they don't outright sell me a lamp of 1m xp for 100$, doesn't mean they aren't selling me xp. (Yes, technically it's not direct, as I have to go through a loop to get it) But they sure as heck are selling me xp if I want to buy it.

 

If they limited a player to say.. 10 spins a day, I would be a lot less worried about selling xp since you can't spins in large enough quantity to predict any given purchase. But they don't. They limit players to 900 spins a day.

 

Also, based on the "still might happen" actually requires us to know their internal core random system. I doubt they are using real entropy to generate the random numbers, which means they are using psuedo random numbers (depending on how they seed it). Without looking at source we can't even prove if they rig it. (well, we could show a high likelihood of rigging if we had enough data). This means it might not even be random. It may not be possible to get the result you requested.

 

And that result is so unlikely already that we can reliably show what value someone will get for their money. Approaching the average occurs very fast with the spins.

 

It isn't random when the outcome of xp/spin can be predicted so easily.

[Artemis1330]

All jagex rage/ivp anger aside, you are kidding yourself if you do not think the sale of spins is anything less then the direct sale of xp for real life cash. At this point, there is enough data available to know if you buy 50+ spins, you will end up with roughly x gp/x exp/x other items.

[Sylpheed]

All jagex rage/ivp anger aside, you are kidding yourself if you do not think the sale of spins is anything less then the direct sale of xp for real life cash. At this point, there is enough data available to know if you buy 50+ spins, you will end up with roughly x gp/x exp/x other items.

 

Except it isn't directly selling EXP. Regardless of the law of averages, you don't get an EXP reward every time you spin the wheel.

[Platinum_Myr]

Except it isn't directly selling EXP. Regardless of the law of averages, you don't get an EXP reward every time you spin the wheel.

 

Let's assume the rate is 100k xp for every 50 spins which is roughly 10$ if you buy in chunks of 450. so 10$ buys you 100k xp. (on average, sure).

Now, if jagex sold xp lamps at 10$ for a 100k xp lamp, the net result is almost the same.

 

Yes, they aren't directly selling xp, but aside from semantics it has the same result predictably even at a low number such as 50 spins. It only gets more predictable the more people you average together. Why is the semantics of "directly" so important to you when the result is the same?

[Sylpheed]

Except it isn't directly selling EXP. Regardless of the law of averages, you don't get an EXP reward every time you spin the wheel.

 

Let's assume the rate is 100k xp for every 50 spins which is roughly 10$ if you buy in chunks of 450. so 10$ buys you 100k xp. (on average, sure).

Now, if jagex sold xp lamps at 10$ for a 100k xp lamp, the net result is almost the same.

 

Yes, they aren't directly selling xp, but aside from semantics it has the same result predictably even at a low number such as 50 spins. It only gets more predictable the more people you average together. Why is the semantics of "directly" so important to you when the result is the same?

 

I never said it was important to me. I was simply stating that they aren't directly selling experience. Semantics or not, regardless of averages, it isnt a direct sale.

[HunterDexter]

But in the end, they do sell exp. You can't deny that.

[Sir_Squab]

I can't help but think that if they put out the SoF after some updates that lessened the amount of grinding for certain skills, it wouldn't nearly be as hated. I've seen MMOs with microtransactions for actual game content, but here the SoF is the end of the world, since the high scores are the point of the game for a lot of players.

 

Kind of like how we keep saying that they should have saved the effigy fix until after Runespan's release.

Wow, I feel like I've said that before.

 

As for the fact that they aren't straight out selling exp, who cares. It's a bloodly loophole is all it is.

[Alg]

Wow, I feel like I've said that before.

I totally didn't subconsciously steal your ideas and statements... :mrgreen:

[Hedgehog]

I think there is a difference between direct and indirect sales of xp or gp. I can't quite put my finger on it, though.

[strilmus]

Well, the difference is how much they want to jerk you around for money before giving you what you want.

[SwreeTak]

That's the thing though. You're using Jagex logic as they say the exact same thing. If I spin the wheel 100 times, I should end up with around 71k Cash, around 22 Small Lamps, Around 13 Medium Lamps and other sellable items/1-2 rare slot items in the form of Cash, Pendant or Dragon Cere.

 

I think we've hit a wall in this discussion though. Sure, you can get more coin rewards and less lamps, but you can also get more lamps and less coins. In the end you are left with approx my statistics. They conclude it's random so it isn't selling exp, but it isn't random enough to convince me.

I haven't made statistics of SoF like you, but I would think that your numbers are not too wrong. You have a chance of buying XP through the SoF. But you never have a chance of buying it directly. Because if you spin 50 times and is unlucky you might just end up with a few XP lamps and tons of 1k/5k/cosmetic items. Which is exactly what I said in my original post. Unlikely: Yes. But still it might happen.

 

Wrong. in 50 spins I will get a predictably average amount of xp. The more spins you buy the more likely you will reach the average. Yes, buying one spin will not always net you a lamp, but if I can buy a reasonable size packet of spins (50-100) I will get a predictable amount of xp back. (some in random skills, but most in skills of my choice.

 

The problem isn't whether it is chance, but whether it can be reliably predicted.

 

I know that if I spend 100$ I will get 900 spins which nets me just about 1m xp in the skill of my choice, plus a bunch of xp in random skills (even more now with those pendants!) I can reliably predict the value of the 100$ that I could choose to spend. Yes i cannot get accurate out to 5 decimal places, but I can (if I wanted to) get accurate to within a few hundred k of xp.

 

the predictability is the reason that it is selling xp. Just because they don't outright sell me a lamp of 1m xp for 100$, doesn't mean they aren't selling me xp. (Yes, technically it's not direct, as I have to go through a loop to get it) But they sure as heck are selling me xp if I want to buy it.

 

If they limited a player to say.. 10 spins a day, I would be a lot less worried about selling xp since you can't spins in large enough quantity to predict any given purchase. But they don't. They limit players to 900 spins a day.

 

Also, based on the "still might happen" actually requires us to know their internal core random system. I doubt they are using real entropy to generate the random numbers, which means they are using psuedo random numbers (depending on how they seed it). Without looking at source we can't even prove if they rig it. (well, we could show a high likelihood of rigging if we had enough data). This means it might not even be random. It may not be possible to get the result you requested.

 

And that result is so unlikely already that we can reliably show what value someone will get for their money. Approaching the average occurs very fast with the spins.

 

It isn't random when the outcome of xp/spin can be predicted so easily.

 

Precisely. They are selling XP/gold. But they're not doing it directly. You always have a rough predictable chance of getting something. In 100 spins you have a chance of getting X lamps and X coins. But you might very well end up with less/more than these X numbers. The semantics here is important to me: Since a few posts pointed out just that that I was wrong when it came to it.

However I am not saying that I like this. I would be just as happy as you if they removed SoF and SGS from the game. However you can, according to me, never say Jagex are selling gold/XP directly. That would mean, to me yet again, that they are having some kind of "Buy 10M for 40 USD" or "Buy 100k Fishing XP for 10 USD" alternatives. THAT, and nothing else, would be to sell gold/xp directly.

[Urza285]

See that's what bugs me about this games community. Since the dawn of my characters creation people have been going nuts over statistical information. Now at this point in time the metagame development of the community is so well versed. Because of this people could use any viewpoint on statistics to prove their point right even the guy who is apparently "wrong." Yeah technically you can buy gold/xp if your so much of a stat-[bleep] to figure out the gold/xp per dollar. Realistically no one, aside from those who have that kind of money to spend, would do it though. Yeah sure it's possible and I'm sure someone has already bought a huge chunk of their xp. Statistically that person is probably much like a grain of sand on the beach compared to the players who do not heavily buy into this stuff.

[Den]

Yeah sure it's possible and I'm sure someone has already bought a huge chunk of their xp.

People have indeed. Scary amounts as well. A friend of mine bought his way from around 80 to 99 slayer in a matter of a week, give or take. Another person also bought enough to get 99 slayer from level 1, which turned out to be around 9000 USD. But hey, Jagex aren't selling experience so these people are surely liars. Everyone knows 1m Slayer exp per day added on to tons of exp in other skills like cooking, fishing, woodcutting, hunter, agility and so on is fully possible without effigies or soul wars.

[Sylpheed]

But in the end, they do sell exp. You can't deny that.

 

I never said they didn't sell experience.

[HunterDexter]

But in the end, they do sell exp. You can't deny that.

 

I never said they didn't sell experience.

 

What I meant was that it doesn't matter if it's direct or indirect selling, that aspect doesn't matter. The point is that they ARE selling exp and thus MMG is lying, just like he did on many other occasions.

It's just annoying that there's a whole debate about whether it's sold directly or not, while the outcome of the two is the same.

[GregorDGrim]

Another person also bought enough to get 99 slayer from level 1, which turned out to be around 9000 USD.

Is there actual proof of this? Not doubting you, just amazed that anyone would be that nuts. I understand why players might want to spend some disposable income to save themselves some grinding time, but that amount is basically beyond the pale.

[Den]

Another person also bought enough to get 99 slayer from level 1, which turned out to be around 9000 USD.

Is there actual proof of this? Not doubting you, just amazed that anyone would be that nuts. I understand why players might want to spend some disposable income to save themselves some grinding time, but that amount is basically beyond the pale.

I can't confirm if it's true or not. All I know about it is a while back there was a lot of talk about someone buying 99 Slayer purely through spins. Take it with a grain of salt if you ask me. There are crazy people with too much money on their hands out there though.

 

Buying a 99 through SoF isn't cheap, but it hasn't stopped people from doing it. I know this much. This is why I believe it to be selling exp. Be it directly or not is irrelevant. It's still selling exp.

[Alg]

If one person has enough money to buy a 99, does that ruin the game for the rest of the playerbase?

[SwreeTak]

Yeah sure it's possible and I'm sure someone has already bought a huge chunk of their xp.

People have indeed. Scary amounts as well. A friend of mine bought his way from around 80 to 99 slayer in a matter of a week, give or take. Another person also bought enough to get 99 slayer from level 1, which turned out to be around 9000 USD. But hey, Jagex aren't selling experience so these people are surely liars. Everyone knows 1m Slayer exp per day added on to tons of exp in other skills like cooking, fishing, woodcutting, hunter, agility and so on is fully possible without effigies or soul wars.

 

Jagex are selling XP. They do so through an in-direct way, but they still are selling XP and gold for real-life cash. Which sucks, in my opinion, since it is unfair and really is against the spirit of the game.

[Jonanananas]

But in the end, they do sell exp. You can't deny that.

 

I never said they didn't sell experience.

 

What I meant was that it doesn't matter if it's direct or indirect selling, that aspect doesn't matter. The point is that they ARE selling exp and thus MMG is lying, just like he did on many other occasions.

It's just annoying that there's a whole debate about whether it's sold directly or not, while the outcome of the two is the same.

 

How is he lying? He never said they aren't selling xp.

[HunterDexter]

I am not stating he is lying, my first post was just in general, to the whole debate here, not towards him personally. :)

[Artemis1330]

What mod mmg said is "we know that directly selling gold, XP or even accounts...However, we simply won’t do it"

 

To the few people arguing over direct/indirect the last two pages, all you're doing is arguing over definitons really. The bottem line is they ARE selling gold, exp, and items. They are definitelly selling items directly, arguing over whether or not they are selling xp directly is a moot point. All semantics aside, Jagex is selling xp.

 

Regarding mod mmgs quote, because I know someone will surely say "omfg see mod mmgs not a liar you're all wrong l0l", it does not matter if the word direct or indirect is in there. Mod Mmg comes off as, arguably, a liar, and surely two-faced (saying one thing (we don't sell exp directly) and doing another (selling xp)). And I'd like to point out, he stated that and the very next day the method to buy xp is half off (or double for the same price, whatever).

 

Basically everyone seems to agree Jagex is selling exp, you're arguing over whether the loophole, so to speak, can be considered direct or indirect. Which is pointless really.

[HunterDexter]

Exactly what I tried to point out with my post, thank you. :D

[Jonanananas]

What mod mmg said is "we know that directly selling gold, XP or even accounts...However, we simply won’t do it"

 

To the few people arguing over direct/indirect the last two pages, all you're doing is arguing over definitons really. The bottem line is they ARE selling gold, exp, and items. They are definitelly selling items directly, arguing over whether or not they are selling xp directly is a moot point. All semantics aside, Jagex is selling xp.

 

Regarding mod mmgs quote, because I know someone will surely say "omfg see mod mmgs not a liar you're all wrong l0l", it does not matter if the word direct or indirect is in there. Mod Mmg comes off as, arguably, a liar, and surely two-faced (saying one thing (we don't sell exp directly) and doing another (selling xp)). And I'd like to point out, he stated that and the very next day the method to buy xp is half off (or double for the same price, whatever).

 

Basically everyone seems to agree Jagex is selling exp, you're arguing over whether the loophole, so to speak, can be considered direct or indirect. Which is pointless really.

 

You are taking only parts of the quote and that's the issue. The full quote *has* to include that he is talking about directly selling xp as opposed to the SoF, and they won't do that, and they AREN'T atm. I am not talking about whether this actually makes a difference. My point stands that he is not a liar (in this case). MMG was as open and admitting as he could honestly be, I don't see how people are still complaining about this.

 

If he said "We aren't directly selling XP", I could understand arguing about it. But that quote was not about whether or not they sell xp, so you cannot call him a liar on that.