If you say H/c x2 in game you will be muted. (Taken from Reddit)

[Krampell]

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

Are ya serious

 

Absolutely. Based on this topic, you guys (not you necessarily, but overall) don't like him very much. Still, he does what he wants, he plays the game his way, and as far as I know, he doesn't scam anyone, so he still gets an enjoyable experience out of it. Runescape has the great ability, that I don't find in other MMORPGs to actually let you do what the hell you want, and I think Vann takes that in stride.

I think you're confused of what the spirit of the game really means...

[Saru Inc]

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

Are ya serious

 

Absolutely. Based on this topic, you guys (not you necessarily, but overall) don't like him very much. Still, he does what he wants, he plays the game his way, and as far as I know, he doesn't scam anyone, so he still gets an enjoyable experience out of it. Runescape has the great ability, that I don't find in other MMORPGs to actually let you do what the hell you want, and I think Vann takes that in stride.

I think you're confused of what the spirit of the game really means...

 

Hardly, I think you may be confused on what their is to be confused about.

 

 

Then they go and say "oh hey, you can't excercise personal responsibility on your own account! Its for your own good!"

 

Sounds like a solid majority of the democratically elected governments in the world, I don't see any difference. Apart from, you know, Jagex owning the game.

 

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

 

Ha.

 

Hahahahaha.

8/10 for making me reply

 

I'm stating that there are major logical inconcistencies, hopefully you understood that.

 

o also ty also check out my BoB & stats l0l

 

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

Are ya serious

 

Absolutely. Based on this topic, you guys (not you necessarily, but overall) don't like him very much. Still, he does what he wants, he plays the game his way, and as far as I know, he doesn't scam anyone, so he still gets an enjoyable experience out of it. Runescape has the great ability, that I don't find in other MMORPGs to actually let you do what the hell you want, and I think Vann takes that in stride.

So if what he's doing embodies the spirit of the game, why are there Jagex-created discussion topics about curbing it on the RSOF, and why is Jagex actively trying to work against it through game updates, such as dice bag removal or silent muting?

Not to mention he admitted to breaking multiple rules including RWT..

 

This has nothing to do with my point.

 

 

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

Are ya serious

 

Absolutely. Based on this topic, you guys (not you necessarily, but overall) don't like him very much. Still, he does what he wants, he plays the game his way, and as far as I know, he doesn't scam anyone, so he still gets an enjoyable experience out of it. Runescape has the great ability, that I don't find in other MMORPGs to actually let you do what the hell you want, and I think Vann takes that in stride.

So if what he's doing embodies the spirit of the game, why are there Jagex-created discussion topics about curbing it on the RSOF, and why is Jagex actively trying to work against it through game updates, such as dice bag removal or silent muting?

 

Jagex created topics, not player created topics. I think its been known for a long time that Jagex doesn't do a very good job in keeping in touch with their player base. Jagex may be working on making the Jagex-player relations slightly better than the opposing tribes in the Rwandan genocide, they're still far from many other MMORPG companies' public relations.

[Barney.S]

Jagex may be working on making the Jagex-player relations slightly better than the opposing tribes in the Rwandan genocide, they're still far from many other MMORPG companies' public relations.

 

^^That is a good analogy.

 

I think gambling should be operated by Jagex to create a money and item sink to somewhat fix the economy. I personally don't think it should be player hosted.

[khandajatt]

Well thats a change me liky :)

[Guest Smelly Paws]

Im not sure why people are looking for scope to get gambling into the game in general. It doesn't need to be there at all. I never joined RS for that, I wanted to play a fantasy game. That still applies now 7 years later. I appreciate that there will always be those who don't have the patience or nous to make the cash they want but I never expected it to come resorting to gambling, particularly the way it's been done. It also looks bad to new players and indeed I can't imagine that some parents would be happy that this 'fantasy' game coaches their kids on the formalities of gambling.

 

I'd rather this culture of greed and instant cash grabbing (sound familiar?) came to an end. I can't blame Jagex for doing something about it but it should have been done ages ago.

 

My first post =)

[V O R K]

Yeah those evil, evil people! Ah you haven't joined for that reason? Lets neglect it completely then! If they don't implent a controlled enviroment, nothing will change.

 

This "culture" has been there for as long as the Duel Arena has been.

 

[Birdd]

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

Are ya serious

 

Absolutely. Based on this topic, you guys (not you necessarily, but overall) don't like him very much. Still, he does what he wants, he plays the game his way, and as far as I know, he doesn't scam anyone, so he still gets an enjoyable experience out of it. Runescape has the great ability, that I don't find in other MMORPGs to actually let you do what the hell you want, and I think Vann takes that in stride.

So if what he's doing embodies the spirit of the game, why are there Jagex-created discussion topics about curbing it on the RSOF, and why is Jagex actively trying to work against it through game updates, such as dice bag removal or silent muting?

Not to mention he admitted to breaking multiple rules including RWT..

 

This has nothing to do with my point.

 

 

This has everything to do with your point. How can you argue someone is playing the game in a manner that is befitting and supportive of the integrity and spirit of the game when the same player has used those means to fund activities that are almost 100% regarded as entirely destructive to the game (RWT), and have been from the beginning against the rules. The player clearly has no active interest in the game or the spirit of the game, only the interest of his own self-gain and what benefits him the most - so much to an extent that he has compromised the spirit of the game only to benefit himself and then justify it with "I got what I want, then I stopped so it's okay!"

 

You have got to be kidding me if you believe that player is the spirit of the game, this game wouldn't exist if we all had his attitude.

[constrictor]

How is the spirit of the game determined, is really question.

 

Does JaGEX determine it?

Or do the players (player by player, one player determines it by their own views)?

 

You guys are proposing that what JaGEX decides -> the spirit of the game.

 

Sara Inc. is proposing that what a player believes to be the spirit of the game (the reason why they play the game) decides what that looks like.

 

 

So in Vann's case, if he believes the spirit of the game is for him to enjoy it -by his standards (as long as they are not breaking rules) - then he can do so. And still to this point, flowers is not against the rules (just frowned upon) and thus flowers is an entirely viable way for a player to enjoy the game (aka the spirit of the game).

 

As a result, though frowned upon, hosting flowers is still within the spirit of the game, in perspective of players (read as certain players).

But in relation to JaGEX it is not in the spirit of the game because, well, they frown upon gambling as a whole.

 

 

What is your attitude towards the game? To enjoy it to your enjoyment or to only enjoy what JaGEX says is the good or bad?

 

If it is the first of these, you my friend, are doing the exact same thing Vann is, just maybe not as closely invested in something that JaGEX greatly dislikes (i.e. flowers).

[Birdd]

How is the spirit of the game determined, is really question.

 

Does JaGEX determine it?

Or do the players (player by player, one player determines it by their own views)?

 

You guys are proposing that what JaGEX decides -> the spirit of the game.

 

Sara Inc. is proposing that what a player believes to be the spirit of the game (the reason why they play the game) decides what that looks like.

 

 

So in Vann's case, if he believes the spirit of the game is for him to enjoy it -by his standards (as long as they are not breaking rules) - then he can do so. And still to this point, flowers is not against the rules (just frowned upon) and thus flowers is an entirely viable way for a player to enjoy the game (aka the spirit of the game).

 

As a result, though frowned upon, hosting flowers is still within the spirit of the game, in perspective of players (read as certain players).

But in relation to JaGEX it is not in the spirit of the game because, well, they frown upon gambling as a whole.

 

 

What is your attitude towards the game? To enjoy it to your enjoyment or to only enjoy what JaGEX says is the good or bad?

 

If it is the first of these, you my friend, are doing the exact same thing Vann is, just maybe not as closely invested in something that JaGEX greatly dislikes (i.e. flowers).

I highlighted the important part.

Saru Inc said that Vann *was* the spirit of the game, yet Vann admitted to breaking the rules. So, nah.

 

The rest of what you said I agree with, although I'd argue that to some degree spirit of the game comes from what makes the game sustainable long term, and frankly, a few select players hoarding all the wealth does not encourage that because new players are so far behind.

[constrictor]

How is the spirit of the game determined, is really question.

 

Does JaGEX determine it?

Or do the players (player by player, one player determines it by their own views)?

 

You guys are proposing that what JaGEX decides -> the spirit of the game.

 

Sara Inc. is proposing that what a player believes to be the spirit of the game (the reason why they play the game) decides what that looks like.

 

 

So in Vann's case, if he believes the spirit of the game is for him to enjoy it -by his standards (as long as they are not breaking rules) - then he can do so. And still to this point, flowers is not against the rules (just frowned upon) and thus flowers is an entirely viable way for a player to enjoy the game (aka the spirit of the game).

 

As a result, though frowned upon, hosting flowers is still within the spirit of the game, in perspective of players (read as certain players).

But in relation to JaGEX it is not in the spirit of the game because, well, they frown upon gambling as a whole.

 

 

What is your attitude towards the game? To enjoy it to your enjoyment or to only enjoy what JaGEX says is the good or bad?

 

If it is the first of these, you my friend, are doing the exact same thing Vann is, just maybe not as closely invested in something that JaGEX greatly dislikes (i.e. flowers).

I highlighted the important part.

Saru Inc said that Vann *was* the spirit of the game, yet Vann admitted to breaking the rules. So, nah.

 

The rest of what you said I agree with, although I'd argue that to some degree spirit of the game comes from what makes the game sustainable long term, and frankly, a few select players hoarding all the wealth does not encourage that because new players are so far behind.

 

Seeing as I had missed the portion of where Vann had admitted to rule breaking, I apologize (I have been not keeeping up with this thread regularly).

 

Regardless, I think that is an aspect of the game. The rich will always be rich. If you play to have an ego and that's the aspect that you enjoy, then by all means find away to satisfy that ego within the rules. If other players aren't drawn by having a big ego via large amounts of wealth, but are drawn to having all maxed stats, well by all means, within the rules, reach that goal.

 

The moment you begin to disfavor one "aspect" of player spirit, is the moment all aspects are now susceptible to disfavor - disfavor enough for you to be banned or muted by taking part in that gameplay.

 

Now that, that is a dangerous road to tread, one JaGEX and player-supporters should be careful to walk.

[Saru Inc]

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

Are ya serious

 

Absolutely. Based on this topic, you guys (not you necessarily, but overall) don't like him very much. Still, he does what he wants, he plays the game his way, and as far as I know, he doesn't scam anyone, so he still gets an enjoyable experience out of it. Runescape has the great ability, that I don't find in other MMORPGs to actually let you do what the hell you want, and I think Vann takes that in stride.

So if what he's doing embodies the spirit of the game, why are there Jagex-created discussion topics about curbing it on the RSOF, and why is Jagex actively trying to work against it through game updates, such as dice bag removal or silent muting?

Not to mention he admitted to breaking multiple rules including RWT..

 

This has nothing to do with my point.

 

 

This has everything to do with your point. How can you argue someone is playing the game in a manner that is befitting and supportive of the integrity and spirit of the game when the same player has used those means to fund activities that are almost 100% regarded as entirely destructive to the game (RWT), and have been from the beginning against the rules. The player clearly has no active interest in the game or the spirit of the game, only the interest of his own self-gain and what benefits him the most - so much to an extent that he has compromised the spirit of the game only to benefit himself and then justify it with "I got what I want, then I stopped so it's okay!"

 

You have got to be kidding me if you believe that player is the spirit of the game, this game wouldn't exist if we all had his attitude.

 

I understand the point you were making, I was merely remarking that it wasn't on the same map I was looking at. Second, I do not take the rules into effect when thinking about what the spirit of the game means, this was my counter point. Simply because the U.S. outlawed alcohol, didn't change the spirit of the U.S., the spirit of the U.S. still wanted alcohol, whether or not it is illegal. This isn't the best analogy, as citizens can vote to change laws, and players cannot; nor is the term 'spirit' used in the same sense. Just because you place a bird in the cage, doesn't mean it doesn't want to fly free. It may willfully stay in the house, and in turn stay in its cage because it knows it can be provided food social comfort, but it still wants to break free and fly.

 

I am not saying that gambling with flower seeds is the spirit of the game. I am not saying that rule breaking is the spirit of the game. You're being too literal, well, I assume you're being too literal. Constrictor is partly right in that I'm saying the spirit of the game is what you make it. Now that I read Constrictor's post that reminded me I had a very similar argument on his topic as well. The spirit of Runescape isn't a tangible thing, sometimes you cannot see the spirit, but instead you can only see the anti-spirit, and from that you have to deduce where the spirit is. I don't like saying spirit so much, it makes me sound like a hippie.

 

Brief example: 6/6/06, Durial321 changed the game a lot for that time period. How did Runescape react? I'm sure if you think about it (if you were around back then, I don't know your start date) there were two very different reactions to the "massacre." Now look at the next game changing event, and the next, and the next, (or going and look later than Durial, this is a starting point for some), do you see a pattern emerging? It's really not that hard to decipher, honestly.

 

I am also aware that I stand at odds with some in the Tip.It community on this matter, so its perfectly possible we won't see eye-to-eye. I think Tip.It has the tendency to be entirely too legalistic in some cases; while this is usually for the better of the community, I do not think it applies in this case.

[Birdd]

[spoiler=Dat Quote Pyramid]

Also, don't talk crap about Vann, its people like him who are the spirit of the game.

Are ya serious

 

Absolutely. Based on this topic, you guys (not you necessarily, but overall) don't like him very much. Still, he does what he wants, he plays the game his way, and as far as I know, he doesn't scam anyone, so he still gets an enjoyable experience out of it. Runescape has the great ability, that I don't find in other MMORPGs to actually let you do what the hell you want, and I think Vann takes that in stride.

So if what he's doing embodies the spirit of the game, why are there Jagex-created discussion topics about curbing it on the RSOF, and why is Jagex actively trying to work against it through game updates, such as dice bag removal or silent muting?

Not to mention he admitted to breaking multiple rules including RWT..

 

This has nothing to do with my point.

 

 

This has everything to do with your point. How can you argue someone is playing the game in a manner that is befitting and supportive of the integrity and spirit of the game when the same player has used those means to fund activities that are almost 100% regarded as entirely destructive to the game (RWT), and have been from the beginning against the rules. The player clearly has no active interest in the game or the spirit of the game, only the interest of his own self-gain and what benefits him the most - so much to an extent that he has compromised the spirit of the game only to benefit himself and then justify it with "I got what I want, then I stopped so it's okay!"

 

You have got to be kidding me if you believe that player is the spirit of the game, this game wouldn't exist if we all had his attitude.

 

I understand the point you were making, I was merely remarking that it wasn't on the same map I was looking at. Second, I do not take the rules into effect when thinking about what the spirit of the game means, this was my counter point. Simply because the U.S. outlawed alcohol, didn't change the spirit of the U.S., the spirit of the U.S. still wanted alcohol, whether or not it is illegal. This isn't the best analogy, as citizens can vote to change laws, and players cannot; nor is the term 'spirit' used in the same sense. Just because you place a bird in the cage, doesn't mean it doesn't want to fly free. It may willfully stay in the house, and in turn stay in its cage because it knows it can be provided food social comfort, but it still wants to break free and fly.

 

I am not saying that gambling with flower seeds is the spirit of the game. I am not saying that rule breaking is the spirit of the game. You're being too literal, well, I assume you're being too literal. Constrictor is partly right in that I'm saying the spirit of the game is what you make it. Now that I read Constrictor's post that reminded me I had a very similar argument on his topic as well. The spirit of Runescape isn't a tangible thing, sometimes you cannot see the spirit, but instead you can only see the anti-spirit, and from that you have to deduce where the spirit is. I don't like saying spirit so much, it makes me sound like a hippie.

 

Brief example: 6/6/06, Durial321 changed the game a lot for that time period. How did Runescape react? I'm sure if you think about it (if you were around back then, I don't know your start date) there were two very different reactions to the "massacre." Now look at the next game changing event, and the next, and the next, (or going and look later than Durial, this is a starting point for some), do you see a pattern emerging? It's really not that hard to decipher, honestly.

 

I am also aware that I stand at odds with some in the Tip.It community on this matter, so its perfectly possible we won't see eye-to-eye. I think Tip.It has the tendency to be entirely too legalistic in some cases; while this is usually for the better of the community, I do not think it applies in this case.

 

 

 

I'm pretty lost what your point is - so maybe I am being too literal. I think your analogies are flawed because it is natural for a bird to fly, whereas (assuming natural is designated by the intended purpose given by the game designers) the purpose of mithril seeds is not naturally gambling. Not to say I'm against emergent gameplay, but if that aspect (gambling) of them is taken away it hasn't removed a large part (or any) of their original purpose, whereas taking away a bird's ability to fly freely has taken away a large portion of what makes a bird a bird. Alas, I have sidetracked greatly.

 

I lol'd at your hippie comment. (:

 

I will obtain my 10 year cape in November, as to how long I have been playing. I'm not entirely sure which pattern you are pointing to that started with Durial, I would love for you to lay it out more plainly - I'm not much of a decipherer. To me, he was a brief blip in Runescape's history that didn't make much of an impact. His only impact on me as a young teen was I learned that if people can screw other's over for no gain (or for the luls), they will.

 

My opinion on the 'spirit' of the game is two-fold.

On one hand, it's whatever you want to make it because it's a Role-Playing Game.

On the other hand, it's also massively multiplayer. If you do not want to partake in some sort of community that sets bounds as to where the 'spirit' begins and ends then you're in the wrong genre of game. You can do whatever you want, as long as it does not hinder other's gameplay in a significantly negative fashion, breaks the rules set in place by the creator (this is not a democracy, as much as we wish it was), or as long as it does not tend towards the destruction of the game itself.

 

How gambling fits into that, I think that it fits perfectly fine. I just think it's better done through a Jagex controlled method that tends away from allowing scamming.

My only disagreement with you was your defense of Vann.

[Guest Smelly Paws]

On the point of 'spirit of the game', in Jagex's words it is an 'onine fantasy adventure' game. Gambling just doesn't come into that spirit. Vorks comment on duel arena is valid in principle but it wasn't designed for the abuse (item and money laundering) that came with it. I find it very sad that portions of the community look for every which way to play the game except the way it was originally intended (emergent gameplay lol).

 

IMHO, it's another step forward to diminising player achievements. It wasn't all that long ago I used to see players discussing making money through the likes of slayer. Now they talk of hosting. Yet they expect the same respect :sad:

[V O R K]

Unfortunately that's human nature.

[Randox]

I would argue that the spirit of the game lies more with the developers than the players. As a point of fact, the usage "against the spirit of the game" coming from Jagex specifically means something that is not against the rules, but which they do not approve of. So far, it has been used (I believe exclusively) to describe situations where players are taking advantage of other players using methods not covered by the rules, such as luring. The spirit is what the creator envisions something to be, just as the spirit of the rules is what the person who wrote them intended the scope and purpose to be.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Isn't making reference to the "spirit of the game" essentially an appeal to nature? Just because something is outside of how the creator envisaged it originally, doesn't mean to say it's wrong.

 

I disagree that Vann's actions were in the right, but you can't use that as a justifiable argument to say he was in the wrong either.

[Randox]

That's sort of beyond the scope of my argument. I am clarifying general usage per Jagex, and in general.

 

Instead of the spirit, I'd say the players get emergent gameplay. The freedom to turn the game into whatever they want. The reality of the game will always be some compromise between the spirit of the game, the developers, and emergent gameplay, the players.

 

There is no intrinsic right or wrong to the spirit of the game or emergent gameplay. They are just phrases which describe the developers vision, and the players ability to use the game in a new, unintended way.

[Nexaduro]

So how exactly did Jagex provide the means to gamble?

 

Also, why does anyone care what people do with their money? I don't play anymore, but I don't even see how it could be that annoying.

[Estoc]

So how exactly did Jagex provide the means to gamble?

 

Also, why does anyone care what people do with their money? I don't play anymore, but I don't even see how it could be that annoying.

 

It lessens my game experience when I see people playing casino games in my medieval fantasy game.

[Nexaduro]

So how exactly did Jagex provide the means to gamble?

 

Also, why does anyone care what people do with their money? I don't play anymore, but I don't even see how it could be that annoying.

 

It lessens my game experience when I see people playing casino games in my medieval fantasy game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLDF6qZUX0

 

That aside, I would posit that gambling probably existed in Medieval Europe.

 

Also everywhere else.

[Zerker_Jane]

I've never gambled on runescape before and detest gambling in general but I think this is a stupid update. Jagex should make it against the rules or leave it alone.

 

And in Medieval Europe lords would gamble with land.

[Guest Smelly Paws]

They also had people killed for real too :rolleyes: . Please, lets not start this taking everything to the nth degree for some childish one-upmanship.

[constrictor]

They also had people killed for real too :rolleyes: . Please, lets not start this taking everything to the nth degree for some childish one-upmanship.

[V O R K]

This is kind of hilarious; I got a ring from SoF and it's the coin of balance, I can flip it for heads or tails but I can also ask it a question for minigame, skill or colour

 

Hmm, which flower would it be?

 

Kind of weird, but I think it's a neat novel thing.

[Jeff Delu]

Just got muted for saying (jokingly) sealgame x2