Jump to content
Cowman_133

Future Update Discussions

Recommended Posts

Armadyl is just a scrawny bird that somehow ascended to godhood and wants peace and justice

 

Bandos is at least a more interesting character

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armadyl wants *both* peace/nonviolence and protection of his followers, and those two are not the same thing - he will have to make choices, either lose followers or kill enemies. It's a classic opposition that is much less random than Bandos' 'idk just mayhem'. As said before, Bandos will never have regrets, doubts or anything if he stays as one-dimensional as he currently is.

  • Like 2

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the fact that you have to dig into the lorecasts to find that kind of information means that we're sorely lacking in-game context for this stuff, even if in-game lore is cited in the examples

 

also, from what we can see in the art concepts, armadyl can beef up considerably, it's just that he carries a lot of self doubt due to his nature for seeking reason in his actions


8f14270694.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armadyl is just a scrawny bird that somehow ascended to godhood and wants peace and justice

 

Bandos is at least a more interesting character

You're telling me that a one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, who was intentionally written as an unlikeable, one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, is more interesting than a god of justice who has to balance his ideals with his responsibility and the realities of what godhood means during a god war?

 

I will never understand this forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Armadyl is just a scrawny bird that somehow ascended to godhood and wants peace and justice

 

Bandos is at least a more interesting character

You're telling me that a one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, who was intentionally written as an unlikeable, one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, is more interesting than a god of justice who has to balance his ideals with his responsibility and the realities of what godhood means during a god war?

 

I will never understand this forum.

 

 

I think they'd both make for some great quests. Bandos as more of an opposition character. Maybe a Chosen Commander part 2. I actually though thats where WE1 was going to go with Bandos attacking Lumbridge to get at the Dorgeshuun and either Saradomin protecting Lumbridge or the Godless protecting the Dorgeshuun.

  • Like 1

R.I.P. The olde nite. A legend is gone but not forgotten.

 

a Faction Related Item Sink for Rune Labs. https://[LikelyScam]/m=player-proposal/a=13/c=VcG-Ir5Ijno/view-idea?idea=19

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Armadyl is just a scrawny bird that somehow ascended to godhood and wants peace and justice

 

Bandos is at least a more interesting character

You're telling me that a one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, who was intentionally written as an unlikeable, one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, is more interesting than a god of justice who has to balance his ideals with his responsibility and the realities of what godhood means during a god war?

 

I will never understand this forum.

Yeah cuz armadyls personality is really softcore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And this is why killing off either of these gods so early in their emergence is a crappy idea.

 

Thanks Obama Jagex World Event 2!

  • Like 2

hzvjpwS.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And how much did you have to dig to find that example? Because I've been looking into Bandos for a while now and haven't seen anything even remotely sympathetic. :unsure:

 

I didn't have to dig at all. I remembered it from the quest and one of podcasts/possibly Wiki. 

 

 

 

 

Armadyl is just a scrawny bird that somehow ascended to godhood and wants peace and justice

 

Bandos is at least a more interesting character

You're telling me that a one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, who was intentionally written as an unlikeable, one-dimensional "kill-crush-burn" god of war, is more interesting than a god of justice who has to balance his ideals with his responsibility and the realities of what godhood means during a god war?

 

I will never understand this forum.

 

 

Oh, please. Armadyl is just as one-dimensional as Bandos. Oh, look, there's the most cliched and archetypal 'good' guy. Throw in the theme of 'justice' in there, and bam! We have got a good guy. I haven't seen any thing sophisticated from him either. And there's nothing unusual about Bandos in that sense. So he finds purpose in war (as even humanity did for quite a lot of its history). Nothing really hard to swallow. In fact, Armadyl is hideously cliched and naive in his pacifism. He's been here for thousands of years, and was here for most of the bloody and destructive God Wars (which lasted about 4,000 years), and in the Sixth Age he was still trying the "let's just use reason and not fight please, guys!" route. That's sort of pathetic. Sometimes violence really is the answer, and it's sort of annoying that Armadyl has only just now realized it.

 

Bandos is interesting (though I don't care for him) in the sense that he knows the reality of war, enjoys it, and is driven by it. There are no regrets, internal dialogues or anything of the sort. That's just what he is. That's starkly different from most good guys, or gray characters like Saradomin who make mistakes or do horrible stuff and try to half-heartedly apologize for it later. In short, Bandos is a warrior, he lives by the sword, and is willing to die by it. There's something appealing and refreshing about it, and that sort of character certainly has a place in a fantasy MMORPG. Not every character could have been a gray character like Saradomin and Zammy -- otherwise it would become trite and overused; gray characters are by definition rare and are there to contrast black and white characters. Bandos is that black/white character. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the gray characters are rare in what you're touting as a gray conflict, you're doing something horribly wrong. Even then, that's not really what a gray character is... And I'm not sure how a mindlessly violent villain is anything other than the most cliched archetype in fiction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're thinking of Bandos as a supervillain instead of a chess player/military commander, which is causing a lot of problems

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Armadyl being an archetype or cliche in anyway makes him on-dimensional.

 

The fact he fits perfectly in to an archetype or cliche that already has lots of nuances to it, gives him a depth automatically from our preconceptions in-spite of the lack of lore and info surrounding him thus far in game.

 

Meanwhile Bandos fits an archetype or cliche that is defined by its one-dimensionality - the guy who wants nothing but war and conflict for no other reason or purpose, just because. And even with a good chunk of lore in-game from the god books and Cave goblin series and a multitude of races with small lore fragments around their lifestyles and cultures he hasn't moved beyond it.

 

I'd agree there is a place for that sort of character in fantasy, but Bandos is the most boring one we have who fits that bill. Zamorak, Lucien, Zemergoul, Moia, Tuska, Skargaroth, Amascut, Sliske, the Raptor and a few others can all easily fall in to the archetype of conflict for conflicts sake and have more nuances or intriguing missing details to them than Bandos has been shown to have. Heck even, for many, the player is that character.

 

Also, as a writer, I'd say in a good fantasy setup the vast majority of characters ought to be grey characters with the one or two big white or black characters acting as the driving forces that make these grey characters face crisis on a personal and global level. Because black and white characters are one dimensional and quite simple, the grey characters are the ones who have dilemmas and internal conflicts and have to grow and change to survive. They shouldn't be rare in the slightest.

 

@Hedgehog - You say that like these are mutually exclusive facts. Just because he is smart in how he wages war does not alter the fact war is all he desires.

  • Like 1

Plv6Dz6.jpg

Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills ::  Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA Rewards

Dragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the gray characters are rare in what you're touting as a gray conflict, you're doing something horribly wrong. Even then, that's not really what a gray character is... And I'm not sure how a mindlessly violent villain is anything other than the most cliched archetype in fiction.

 

I find Bandos interesting because he is so overwhelmingly evil. Jagex has been trying to give everyone either a flaw or a strength and they got to Bandos and were just like "Nope, He's Evil". Every other character has some form of grey in there. Armadyl led his followers to genocide, he's not really a great warleader and thats a weakness for him.  Bandos has deliberately genocided his own people when they had no one else to fight. Its interesting in how unambiguously bad for Gielinor he is. Thats why I think he's an interesting character for the game but also why I won't be wanting him to win.

  • Like 1

R.I.P. The olde nite. A legend is gone but not forgotten.

 

a Faction Related Item Sink for Rune Labs. https://[LikelyScam]/m=player-proposal/a=13/c=VcG-Ir5Ijno/view-idea?idea=19

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're thinking of Bandos as a supervillain instead of a chess player/military commander, which is causing a lot of problems

I'm not sure if chess involves throwing your own pawns at one another for your own amusement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the gray characters are rare in what you're touting as a gray conflict, you're doing something horribly wrong. Even then, that's not really what a gray character is... And I'm not sure how a mindlessly violent villain is anything other than the most cliched archetype in fiction.

 

Gray characters usually are rare in fiction; they are a sort of half-way between white and black characters. 

 

Bandos is clichéd in his villainy (though, it's not mindless, he's an intelligent creature who simply finds purpose in war -- no more different than the player or NPC who finds purpose in smithing). So yes, he's clichéd, but he sort of needs to be. A lot of the other characters (Zaros, Zamorak, Saradomin) are gray characters -- you can't really throw every one into that mold, otherwise it becomes overused. Someone had to be the definitive bad guy/bully, and Bandos is that. All things considered, he could have been a lot more one-dimensional and clichéd, so I think he's pretty decent as a character and not as bad as he could have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You're thinking of Bandos as a supervillain instead of a chess player/military commander, which is causing a lot of problems

I'm not sure if chess involves throwing your own pawns at one another for your own amusement.

 

Well I mean

 

If you had a chess board and chess pieces and nothing else to do and no one else to play with, would you just leave the board there?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If the gray characters are rare in what you're touting as a gray conflict, you're doing something horribly wrong. Even then, that's not really what a gray character is... And I'm not sure how a mindlessly violent villain is anything other than the most cliched archetype in fiction.

 

I find Bandos interesting because he is so overwhelmingly evil. Jagex has been trying to give everyone either a flaw or a strength and they got to Bandos and were just like "Nope, He's Evil". Every other character has some form of grey in there. Armadyl led his followers to genocide, he's not really a great warleader and thats a weakness for him.  Bandos has deliberately genocided his own people when they had no one else to fight. Its interesting in how unambiguously bad for Gielinor he is. Thats why I think he's an interesting character for the game but also why I won't be wanting him to win.

 

 

Except Bandos actually learned from his mistake and changed his worldview -- he no longer thinks that war should be pursued if it will end in ultimate genocide (hence the Chosen Commander story line). What has Armadyl learned? He was in one of the most devastating and bloody conflicts in all of history which lead to countless genocides and involved psychopathic gods -- what does he learn after thousands of years of reflection and banishment? Apparently nothing. Because in the 6th Age he still tries pacifism against these psychopathic, violent, empowered maniacs. Seems naive and silly to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious where this changed worldview is, seeing as one of his most recent acts was to try and commit a genocide on the cave goblins and then, having just got back to Gielinor he's all fired up to fight gods causing more potential genocide and almost immediately is going to attack Armadyl.

  • Like 1

Plv6Dz6.jpg

Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills ::  Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA Rewards

Dragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious where this changed worldview is, seeing as one of his most recent acts was to try and commit a genocide on the cave goblins and then, having just got back to Gielinor he's all fired up to fight gods causing more potential genocide and almost immediately is going to attack Armadyl.

I'll respect Armadyl a little if he's the one who initiates the combat

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm curious where this changed worldview is, seeing as one of his most recent acts was to try and commit a genocide on the cave goblins and then, having just got back to Gielinor he's all fired up to fight gods causing more potential genocide and almost immediately is going to attack Armadyl.

I'll respect Armadyl a little if he's the one who initiates the combat

 

 

This. Nothing more nauseating than mindless pacifism.

 

 

 

I'm curious where this changed worldview is, seeing as one of his most recent acts was to try and commit a genocide on the cave goblins and then, having just got back to Gielinor he's all fired up to fight gods causing more potential genocide and almost immediately is going to attack Armadyl.

 

He hasn't renounced war. He has renounced it in situations where everyone dies (importantly most or all of his followers). War, by definition, has the possibility of genocide - so, no, he hasn't renounced that (none of the Gods, except Guthix, really acknowledge this with any seriousness). He has however renounced complete genocide. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Renounced it...of his followers. I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't care if someone else's race was completely wiped out. That's war.


hzvjpwS.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Renounced it...of his followers. I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't care if someone else's race was completely wiped out. That's war.

 

Yes. And that's precisely how all the other Gods view it as well.. Zamorak (who is supposed to be a 'noble demon') wouldn't care if all the Icyene were exterminated, and Saradomin (another gray character and nominally 'good' guy) wouldn't care if all the Vampyres and Demons were exterminated in combat. Pretty sure Armadyl's armies also killed combatants of other races. That's the point of war at the end of the day, to kill the other side. Bandos is unique in that he seems to be honest and upfront about it, rather than make excuses or try to salvage his image (though he does lie to his followers). He also isn't petty about combat. He can be vengeful (as seen by his attempt to punish the Dorgesh), but he seems not to hold grudges against other combatants. And he seems to push around people who are weaker than him -- he seems to respect power alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If the gray characters are rare in what you're touting as a gray conflict, you're doing something horribly wrong. Even then, that's not really what a gray character is... And I'm not sure how a mindlessly violent villain is anything other than the most cliched archetype in fiction.

Gray characters usually are rare in fiction; they are a sort of half-way between white and black characters.

 

???

 

You're reading really low quality fiction... the whole point of literature is the grey character. The exact tint of grey may vary, but only an inept writer would have black and white only.

 

Anyway, I don't think that the above discussion is all that relevant to the dimensionality of Bandos or any god. The question is: if I take away this characteristic, what's left? What is Bandos without his drive for war? What do we know about Bandos apart from that he wants war? He likes to cause it, but not necessarily between gods - mortals will do (as evidenced by the goblin tribes). He likes watching war, but do we know of any attack he's started? As far as I know, he always exploits existing conflicts and turns them violent.

 

Is there any reason to suspect that Bandos aims for anything but turning competition violent?

  • Like 2

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

If the gray characters are rare in what you're touting as a gray conflict, you're doing something horribly wrong. Even then, that's not really what a gray character is... And I'm not sure how a mindlessly violent villain is anything other than the most cliched archetype in fiction.

Gray characters usually are rare in fiction; they are a sort of half-way between white and black characters.

 

???

 

You're reading really low quality fiction... the whole point of literature is the grey character. The exact tint of grey may vary, but only an inept writer would have black and white only.

 

Anyway, I don't think that the above discussion is all that relevant to the dimensionality of Bandos or any god. The question is: if I take away this characteristic, what's left? What is Bandos without his drive for war? What do we know about Bandos apart from that he wants war? He likes to cause it, but not necessarily between gods - mortals will do (as evidenced by the goblin tribes). He likes watching war, but do we know of any attack he's started? As far as I know, he always exploits existing conflicts and turns them violent.

 

Is there any reason to suspect that Bandos aims for anything but turning competition violent?

 

 

 

It's true that high quality fiction (which I never really took RS for) has more of a focus on gray characters; but even high quality fiction needs a few black and white characters. Even Shakespeare's Hamlet had a Polonius, someone who was just immoral. Given that Jagex has went out of their way to make several of the other Gods gray, I think it's entirely appropriate that they reserved one God as simply being single-minded and evil. It's a nice contrast, and it ensures that gray concept isn't overused. How many Gods are there? They can't all just be sophisticated characters who are dangling between good and evil -- it would come off as too trite and it would probably fail if they tried to make every character into a Saradomin or Zamorak mold (the archetypal gray characters in RS). 

 

There are plenty of people that are single-minded or dedicate their whole life to one thing. I don't think that's unusual. 

 

He has been known to defeat large armies by himself. So I presume he's not just into being a spectator and actually likes being in war.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Black/white characters can only have external conflict. Gray characters can have internal conflict. For some stories a strong character with a single defining theme is better. Other stories aren't able to be told with them. But the characters always need to be well defined and have strong themes. Bandos` theme is pretty evil and many people dislike that. So putting him up for a death match is going to likely get him killed.


Serena_Sedai.png
Maxed since Sunday, January 9th, 2014
Completionist since Wednesday, June 4th, 2014

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.