Future Update Discussions

[Quasar]

I think I should chime in here.  I'm one of the more pvm oriented players on the board, and I run a service which until now sold rots and rago kills to would-be trim comp capers.  First off, it would be absolutely terrific for business if these were to become normal completionist requirements, but beyond that...  The players who buy our services have tended towards the older side of the spectrum –– the first pair of rots kills I sold was to a married couple.  Many of them either do not want to spend the time to learn the boss (it may take four or five hours to get a rots kill with an entirely novice team) or don't have a close/pvm-competent group of friends.  A few players had issues such as chronic pain or other illnesses which made it very difficult to fully manage pvm content.  That said, with a service or group of friends who can take you through team bosses, they are entirely doable.  We took players who had never so much as unlocked the vorago soundtrack and got them through the kills on their first attempt.  I don't believe any leech, even the most incompetent, took more than three tries.  Rise of the Six is entirely leachable.  According to Mod Oliver, any player who so much as touches the boss will get a credit towards their Reaper title.  There is no requirement to do the most damage, or get the first/last hit.  So bosses such as Nex, KK, GWD generals (anyone can manage one kill with a batwing/poly let alone the gear comp capers can afford), are eminently doable.  

 

I understand that some players may be opposed to employing a leech service or stooping to ask their friends for help.  But if you simultaneously choose this road and refuse to so much as attempt to learn the bosses, then I think there is little right to complain.  

[Saradomin_Mage]

Comp cape had reqs in 2012 to beat the Fight Kiln and QBD. That was pretty extreme PVM at the time.

[Yoko Kurama]

I think I should chime in here.  I'm one of the more pvm oriented players on the board, and I run a service which until now sold rots and rago kills to would-be trim comp capers.  First off, it would be absolutely terrific for business if these were to become normal completionist requirements, but beyond that...  The players who buy our services have tended towards the older side of the spectrum –– the first pair of rots kills I sold was to a married couple.  Many of them either do not want to spend the time to learn the boss (it may take four or five hours to get a rots kill with an entirely novice team) or don't have a close/pvm-competent group of friends.  A few players had issues such as chronic pain or other illnesses which made it very difficult to fully manage pvm content.  That said, with a service or group of friends who can take you through team bosses, they are entirely doable.  We took players who had never so much as unlocked the vorago soundtrack and got them through the kills on their first attempt.  I don't believe any leech, even the most incompetent, took more than three tries.  Rise of the Six is entirely leachable.  According to Mod Oliver, any player who so much as touches the boss will get a credit towards their Reaper title.  There is no requirement to do the most damage, or get the first/last hit.  So bosses such as Nex, KK, GWD generals (anyone can manage one kill with a batwing/poly let alone the gear comp capers can afford), are eminently doable.  

 

I understand that some players may be opposed to employing a leech service or stooping to ask their friends for help.  But if you simultaneously choose this road and refuse to so much as attempt to learn the bosses, then I think there is little right to complain.  

 

I just don't see what's the point of PVM requirements if people are simply going to leech them.

 

You always have the right the complain. ;)

[Yoko Kurama]

Comp cape had reqs in 2012 to beat the Fight Kiln and QBD. That was pretty extreme PVM at the time.

 

Fair enough. Though, it stopped updating the PVM requirements quite some time ago.

 

I am more amenable to Kiln/QBD requirements, at least you actually do those yourself. 

[muggiwhplar]

Yes you always have the right to complain. Just like you always have the right to develop yourself such that you no longer have anything to complain about :P

[Quasar]

 

I think I should chime in here.  I'm one of the more pvm oriented players on the board, and I run a service which until now sold rots and rago kills to would-be trim comp capers.  First off, it would be absolutely terrific for business if these were to become normal completionist requirements, but beyond that...  The players who buy our services have tended towards the older side of the spectrum –– the first pair of rots kills I sold was to a married couple.  Many of them either do not want to spend the time to learn the boss (it may take four or five hours to get a rots kill with an entirely novice team) or don't have a close/pvm-competent group of friends.  A few players had issues such as chronic pain or other illnesses which made it very difficult to fully manage pvm content.  That said, with a service or group of friends who can take you through team bosses, they are entirely doable.  We took players who had never so much as unlocked the vorago soundtrack and got them through the kills on their first attempt.  I don't believe any leech, even the most incompetent, took more than three tries.  Rise of the Six is entirely leachable.  According to Mod Oliver, any player who so much as touches the boss will get a credit towards their Reaper title.  There is no requirement to do the most damage, or get the first/last hit.  So bosses such as Nex, KK, GWD generals (anyone can manage one kill with a batwing/poly let alone the gear comp capers can afford), are eminently doable.  

 

I understand that some players may be opposed to employing a leech service or stooping to ask their friends for help.  But if you simultaneously choose this road and refuse to so much as attempt to learn the bosses, then I think there is little right to complain.  

 

I just don't see what's the point of PVM requirements if people are simply going to leech them.

 

You always have the right the complain. ;)

 

Well, I suspect not all that many people are going to leech them.  None of the bosses are particularly difficult.  Leech services simply allow those who CANNOT do the boss for whatever reason to meet the requirement.  

[Alg]

That's another point... How exactly can you call yourself a "completionist" if you haven't even killed every boss >_>

 

Of all the things in RS that could be scrapped or nerfed in order to cater to the "less fortunate" players, the completionist cape should be the last on the list to be dumbed-down. What's the point of having a completionist cape if we're just going to follow the "everyone's a winner!" mentality?

Then what's the point of having a trimmed completionist cape? It's not about catering to anyone, it's about clearly defining what their official endgame is and what it isn't, and changing that definition at the drop of the hat because... why, exactly?

 

I'm sick to death of them moving the goal posts because someone who's been playing for 13 years wants to feel special.

[muggiwhplar]

 

That's another point... How exactly can you call yourself a "completionist" if you haven't even killed every boss >_>

 

Of all the things in RS that could be scrapped or nerfed in order to cater to the "less fortunate" players, the completionist cape should be the last on the list to be dumbed-down. What's the point of having a completionist cape if we're just going to follow the "everyone's a winner!" mentality?

Then what's the point of having a trimmed completionist cape? It's not about catering to anyone, it's about clearly defining what their official endgame is and what it isn't, and changing that definition at the drop of the hat because... why, exactly?

 

I'm sick to death of them moving the goal posts because someone who's been playing for 13 years wants to feel special.

 

 

I'm probably wrong but your argument sounds like this.

 

Don't you think it's silly to call something a "completionist" cape if something so central to RS as PvM is omitted from the requirements?

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

That's another point... How exactly can you call yourself a "completionist" if you haven't even killed every boss >_>

 

Of all the things in RS that could be scrapped or nerfed in order to cater to the "less fortunate" players, the completionist cape should be the last on the list to be dumbed-down. What's the point of having a completionist cape if we're just going to follow the "everyone's a winner!" mentality?

Then what's the point of having a trimmed completionist cape? It's not about catering to anyone, it's about clearly defining what their official endgame is and what it isn't, and changing that definition at the drop of the hat because... why, exactly?

 

I'm sick to death of them moving the goal posts because someone who's been playing for 13 years wants to feel special.

 

 

I'm probably wrong but your argument sounds like this.

 

Don't you think it's silly to call something a "completionist" cape if something so central to RS as PvM is omitted from the requirements?

 

 

But it's not a literal title/name. Otherwise there are mounds and mounds and mounds of things that are not requirements but should be if we go by a literal definition. Everything must have limits, so the question becomes what should those limits me? It's not prima facie absurd to suggest to leave certain things out of it, such as certain PVM things. I am a highly PVM oriented player, and even I recognize that Runescape is more and more a skiller's game (that's also where the community is oriented towards). 

[muggiwhplar]

 

 

 

That's another point... How exactly can you call yourself a "completionist" if you haven't even killed every boss >_>

 

Of all the things in RS that could be scrapped or nerfed in order to cater to the "less fortunate" players, the completionist cape should be the last on the list to be dumbed-down. What's the point of having a completionist cape if we're just going to follow the "everyone's a winner!" mentality?

Then what's the point of having a trimmed completionist cape? It's not about catering to anyone, it's about clearly defining what their official endgame is and what it isn't, and changing that definition at the drop of the hat because... why, exactly?

 

I'm sick to death of them moving the goal posts because someone who's been playing for 13 years wants to feel special.

 

 

I'm probably wrong but your argument sounds like this.

 

Don't you think it's silly to call something a "completionist" cape if something so central to RS as PvM is omitted from the requirements?

 

 

But it's not a literal title/name. Otherwise there are mounds and mounds and mounds of things that are not requirements but should be if we go by a literal definition. Everything must have limits, so the question becomes what should those limits me? It's not prima facie absurd to suggest to leave certain things out of it, such as certain PVM things. I am a highly PVM oriented player, and even I recognize that Runescape is more and more a skiller's game (that's also where the community is oriented towards). 

 

 

Like I said, PvM has become such a prominent part of the game that it doesn't really make sense to omit it from the requirements. Excluding PvM is like excluding minigames. Additionally, there's a difference between "Fight Vorago," "Kill Vorago," "Receive a seismic wand from Vorago," and "Receive every possible drop from Vorago."

 

Players should at the very least be required to kill every boss at least once for a basic completionist cape.

[Sy_Accursed]

Just because you can improve your reflexes does not mean there is not a limit upon how good your personal reflexes can be and that limit, even without mental illness, can be low enough to preclude the ability to do top end rs pvm.

 

Also the "issue" is quite simple: I do not think bosses should be on plain comp req. Simple as. Nothing to do with how hard they are, or altering them, pure and simple don't put them on plain comp reqs. If you can't understand that without inferring some other meaning to it then I don't know how to state it more plainly.

 

Also certain people seem to be on the tact that I'm whining or moaning or w/e cause I can't do it or something - just to be clear I'm fairly confident I could beat any of the bosses if I tried. It's true I haven't previously, simply because I have had no interest in pvm and I am not the best at it; but make no mistake I could do them all if I put in a bit of effort and I fully intend to in due course. However that does not alter my opinion that the issues of reflex limits and their optional nature make them wrong to add to the plain comp cape and better suited as a trim req.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

 

 

That's another point... How exactly can you call yourself a "completionist" if you haven't even killed every boss >_>

 

Of all the things in RS that could be scrapped or nerfed in order to cater to the "less fortunate" players, the completionist cape should be the last on the list to be dumbed-down. What's the point of having a completionist cape if we're just going to follow the "everyone's a winner!" mentality?

Then what's the point of having a trimmed completionist cape? It's not about catering to anyone, it's about clearly defining what their official endgame is and what it isn't, and changing that definition at the drop of the hat because... why, exactly?

 

I'm sick to death of them moving the goal posts because someone who's been playing for 13 years wants to feel special.

 

 

I'm probably wrong but your argument sounds like this.

 

Don't you think it's silly to call something a "completionist" cape if something so central to RS as PvM is omitted from the requirements?

 

 

But it's not a literal title/name. Otherwise there are mounds and mounds and mounds of things that are not requirements but should be if we go by a literal definition. Everything must have limits, so the question becomes what should those limits me? It's not prima facie absurd to suggest to leave certain things out of it, such as certain PVM things. I am a highly PVM oriented player, and even I recognize that Runescape is more and more a skiller's game (that's also where the community is oriented towards). 

 

 

Like I said, PvM has become such a prominent part of the game that it doesn't really make sense to omit it from the requirements. Excluding PvM is like excluding minigames.

 

 

A lot of minigames are also excluded from the Comp Cape. At the end 2013, there was an official poll asking which of the major updates during the year the players enjoyed the most. Do you know how much ROTS and Vorago had? One of them received 1% and the other one was 4% or so of the vote. I think, Diviniation by contrast had like 15-17% of the vote.

 

High level PVM is a very elite activity that only a very few people engage in. Often, at times, the forum threads for finding Vorago and ROTS teams are completely dead.

[Quasar]

people do find teams places besides the official runescape forums

[muggiwhplar]

A lot of minigames are also excluded from the Comp Cape. At the end 2013, there was an official poll asking which of the major updates during the year the players enjoyed the most. Do you know how much ROTS and Vorago had? One of them received 1% and the other one was 4% or so of the vote. I think, Diviniation by contrast had like 15-17% of the vote.

 

High level PVM is a very elite activity that only a very few people engage in. Often, at times, the forum threads for finding Vorago and ROTS teams are completely dead.

Obtaining a completionist cape is also a very high level and elite activity that only a very few people engage in. That vote was polled by EVERY RS PLAYER, not just PvM'ers and not just completionists. Therefore, those statistics are irrelevant to the issue, unless every player who voted in that poll intends to obtain a completionist cape. Even then, a player's opinion is irrelevant to what is and what is not considered a completionist requirement.

 

This issue only affects a very small minority of the playerbase. Out of the hundreds of thousands of RS players out there, how many of them have completionist capes? Of the players with completionist capes, how many of them are "completely incapable" of ever killing every RS boss, even with hours and hours of practice?

 

Do you see my point yet? >_>

[Quasar]

 

A lot of minigames are also excluded from the Comp Cape. At the end 2013, there was an official poll asking which of the major updates during the year the players enjoyed the most. Do you know how much ROTS and Vorago had? One of them received 1% and the other one was 4% or so of the vote. I think, Diviniation by contrast had like 15-17% of the vote.

 

High level PVM is a very elite activity that only a very few people engage in. Often, at times, the forum threads for finding Vorago and ROTS teams are completely dead.

Obtaining a completionist cape is also a very high level and elite activity that only a very few people engage in. That vote was polled by EVERY RS PLAYER, not just PvM'ers and not just completionists.

 

This issue only affects a very small minority of the playerbase. Out of the hundreds of thousands of RS players out there, how many of them have completionist capes? Of the players with completionist capes, how many of them are "completely incapable" of ever killing every RS boss, even with hours and hours of practice?

 

Do you see my point yet? >_>

 

and of those players how many of them will refuse, on principle, to give me 30m so they can AFK in the rots tunnel

[Saradomin_Mage]

It's 30m now???? Wtf m8

[Quasar]

27m for u #10%tifdiscount

[Yoko Kurama]

The 'riseofthe6' fc was doing it for 15M FC, complete leech. Sold by the top ranks who are extremely good at it and would rarely if ever fail. I believe a TIF member bought the trim requirement from that.

[Quasar]

and rago pvm sells mauls for 500k... hasn't stopped people from paying 80m during green bomb.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Tbh in Legacy mode ROTS should be pretty straightforward, right? Just need to dodge special attacks, no worrying about your own ability usage. They fire their specs are a certain number of attacks anyway, just like all Chris L bosses.

[Yoko Kurama]

and rago pvm sells mauls for 500k... hasn't stopped people from paying 80m during green bomb.

 

That's the precisely the sort of thing that should be avoided, people paying money to leech content. Otherwise, you may as well add a "complete PVM requirement, or pay 50M instead" requirement to the cape instead. (Back in the day, when Monkey Madness came out, you could either do the puzzle or pay 200K to an NPC or something, not sure if that still exists). May as well counter some inflation as well (one of Jagex's priorities, according to them).

[Quasar]

rots is not bad in legacy.  i think a right click provoke option on the monsters themselves would be more amenable than shield voking.  you don't neeeeed voke at rots but it's nice to have.

[Quasar]

 

and rago pvm sells mauls for 500k... hasn't stopped people from paying 80m during green bomb.

 

That's the precisely the sort of thing that should be avoided, people paying money to leech content. Otherwise, you may as well add a "complete PVM requirement, or pay 50M instead" requirement to the cape instead. (Back in the day, when Monkey Madness came out, you could either do the puzzle or pay 200K to an NPC or something, not sure if that still exists). 

 

and every player ever obtained their own fire cape

[Saradomin_Mage]

Vorago doesn't suffer from pay to win as much, though. You need to get on a team, and you need to be at least half decent at DPSing + surviving. On the other hand, you can sit in the room in ROTS and eat food if Karil's bomb happens to spawn near you, and you'll get your req faster than a pot of water can boil. You don't even need to escape the tunnel, wtf.

[Quasar]

unless of course your team is good enough that having someone poking rago with a cstaff on p5 is enough to get you over the '5-man dps expectation' threshold