Future Update Discussions

[Alg]

I'm probably wrong but your argument sounds like this.

 

Don't you think it's silly to call something a "completionist" cape if something so central to RS as PvM is omitted from the requirements?

I'm probably going to be falling completely into appeal-to-tradition territory with this, but no, it's not silly because they've spent the last three years putting boss requirements into the trimmed cape rather than the regular one. I honestly don't see a reason for them to completely redefine what it means to be an elite player now, when boss hunting is something you can really only do at the end. 

 

That's the thing here: it's a massive departure from the game's normal progression, requiring a completely different skill set that you're not really given a chance to hone until the end of the game. It'd be like giving me a slow-paced strategy game where the last 10 minutes are a FPS.

[muggiwhplar]

 

and rago pvm sells mauls for 500k... hasn't stopped people from paying 80m during green bomb.

 

That's the precisely the sort of thing that should be avoided, people paying money to leech content. Otherwise, you may as well add a "complete PVM requirement, or pay 50M instead" requirement to the cape instead. (Back in the day, when Monkey Madness came out, you could either do the puzzle or pay 200K to an NPC or something, not sure if that still exists). May as well counter some inflation as well (one of Jagex's priorities, according to them).

 

Then just add a "most damage dealt" or "most damage taken" requirement in addition to contributing to a kill or something.

[Quasar]

 

I'm probably wrong but your argument sounds like this.

 

Don't you think it's silly to call something a "completionist" cape if something so central to RS as PvM is omitted from the requirements?

I'm probably going to be falling completely into appeal-to-tradition territory with this, but no, it's not silly because they've spent the last three years putting boss requirements into the trimmed cape. I honestly don't see a reason for them to completely redefine what it means to be an elite player now, when boss hunting is something you can really only do at the end. 

 

That's the thing here: it's a massive departure from the game's normal progression, requiring a completely different skill set that you're not really given a chance to hone until the end of the game. It'd be like giving me a slow-paced strategy game where the last 10 minutes are a FPS.

 

i wouldn't consider myself an endgame player -- i'm 2380 total.  but i've been bosshunting since about lvl 85 combat in 2008 or so.  the barriers to entry are low.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Isn't completionist cape pretty much the end, though? You're maxed out and don't have to worry about skills anymore, so you can go PVM and grind gear. And what better time to start than if not this point?

[Yoko Kurama]

 

A lot of minigames are also excluded from the Comp Cape. At the end 2013, there was an official poll asking which of the major updates during the year the players enjoyed the most. Do you know how much ROTS and Vorago had? One of them received 1% and the other one was 4% or so of the vote. I think, Diviniation by contrast had like 15-17% of the vote.

 

High level PVM is a very elite activity that only a very few people engage in. Often, at times, the forum threads for finding Vorago and ROTS teams are completely dead.

Obtaining a completionist cape is also a very high level and elite activity that only a very few people engage in. That vote was polled by EVERY RS PLAYER, not just PvM'ers and not just completionists. Therefore, those statistics are irrelevant to the issue, unless every player who voted in that poll intends to obtain a completionist cape. Even then, a player's opinion is irrelevant to what is and what is not considered a completionist requirement.

 

This issue only affects a very small minority of the playerbase. Out of the hundreds of thousands of RS players out there, how many of them have completionist capes? Of the players with completionist capes, how many of them are "completely incapable" of ever killing every RS boss, even with hours and hours of practice?

 

Do you see my point yet? >_>

 

 

The poll is not terribly relevant, but it does reflect what everyone knows to be the case. Most of the players are oriented towards skilling. 

 

There's dozen and dozens of Comp (and some Trim) players who don't do PVM at all. They probably could learn given the time, and effort. But the community is by and large a skilling one (even at the high end levels). The comp cape has until recently reflected that (the bulk of the requirements were skills, quests, and certain minigames, and diary requirements). There's nothing wrong with gearing it more towards PVM, but this isn't going to accomplish that. I don't see much point in changing the cape now or redefining it (which is what this requirement is).

 

Also, on a minor note, just as with the Warmonger title, I'd like this title to be somewhat unique and optional (i.e. those of us who like titles or the activities associated with particular titles get them to show our affinity with it because we actually enjoy the content, such as myself). I got the Warmonger title, and the Daemonheim title, not because I was ever going to trim, but because I like DG and that particular title. Similarly, as a PVMer, I will easily get the Reaper title (the reward for killing all bosses once) regardless of whether it is a completionist requirement or not, because I like that sort of stuff. Let people like me get it if we want, and leave the skillers to do whatever they're doing.

[muggiwhplar]

 

I'm probably wrong but your argument sounds like this.

 

Don't you think it's silly to call something a "completionist" cape if something so central to RS as PvM is omitted from the requirements?

I'm probably going to be falling completely into appeal-to-tradition territory with this, but no, it's not silly because they've spent the last three years putting boss requirements into the trimmed cape rather than the regular one. I honestly don't see a reason for them to completely redefine what it means to be an elite player now, when boss hunting is something you can really only do at the end. 

 

That's the thing here: it's a massive departure from the game's normal progression, requiring a completely different skill set that you're not really given a chance to hone until the end of the game. It'd be like giving me a slow-paced strategy game where the last 10 minutes are a FPS.

 

You can start PvM as a mid-level player and work your way up from there. There's so many bosses now, and not all of them are exclusive to high level players. And like I said earlier, by the point that you have all the other comp requirements fulfilled, it's not like killing the high level bosses is some sort of insurmountable obstacle suddenly shoved upon you >_>

 

Edit: Yeah Yuj and SM already addressed my points.

[Yoko Kurama]

Isn't completionist cape pretty much the end, though? You're maxed out and don't have to worry about skills anymore, so you can go PVM and grind gear. And what better time to start than if not this point?

 

No, after you hit completionist, you can start worrying about ranks, experience points, and 120's.   :D

[Saradomin_Mage]

Thought the skiller's cape was the max cape? Or any of these 120s. Comp has always been something more, even if not heavy on PVM content previously.

 

Putting boss reqs on the trim comp cape doesn't mean there can't be future boss reqs on the regular version. Trim has been about going far above and beyond, and with this proposed update it's going to require a lot more than just one of each boss kill for its reqs.

[Quasar]

 

 

Also, on a minor note, just as with the Warmonger title, I'd like this title to be somewhat unique and optional (i.e. those of us who like titles or the activities associated with particular titles get them to show our affinity with it because we actually enjoy the content, such as myself). I got the Warmonger title, and the Daemonheim title, not because I was ever going to trim, but because I like DG and that particular title. Similarly, as a PVMer, I will easily get the Reaper title (the reward for killing all bosses once) regardless of whether it is a completionist requirement or not, because I like that sort of stuff. Let people like me get it if we want, and leave the skillers to do whatever they're doing.

 

I honestly think this is actually the best argument in favor of not making the reaper title a completionist requirement.  As it stands, the only titles achievable by ingame methods which are not required are 'the defeater' and seasonal titles.  remember when everyone was running around wearing 'the annihilator' ?  it looks silly.  keep titles classy

[muggiwhplar]

 

 

A lot of minigames are also excluded from the Comp Cape. At the end 2013, there was an official poll asking which of the major updates during the year the players enjoyed the most. Do you know how much ROTS and Vorago had? One of them received 1% and the other one was 4% or so of the vote. I think, Diviniation by contrast had like 15-17% of the vote.

 

High level PVM is a very elite activity that only a very few people engage in. Often, at times, the forum threads for finding Vorago and ROTS teams are completely dead.

Obtaining a completionist cape is also a very high level and elite activity that only a very few people engage in. That vote was polled by EVERY RS PLAYER, not just PvM'ers and not just completionists. Therefore, those statistics are irrelevant to the issue, unless every player who voted in that poll intends to obtain a completionist cape. Even then, a player's opinion is irrelevant to what is and what is not considered a completionist requirement.

 

This issue only affects a very small minority of the playerbase. Out of the hundreds of thousands of RS players out there, how many of them have completionist capes? Of the players with completionist capes, how many of them are "completely incapable" of ever killing every RS boss, even with hours and hours of practice?

 

Do you see my point yet? >_>

 

 

The poll is not terribly relevant, but it does reflect what everyone knows to be the case. Most of the players are oriented towards skilling. 

 

There's dozen and dozens of Comp (and some Trim) players who don't do PVM at all. They probably could learn given the time, and effort. But the community is by and large a skilling one (even at the high end levels). The comp cape has until recently reflected that (the bulk of the requirements were skills, quests, and certain minigames, and diary requirements). There's nothing wrong with gearing it more towards PVM, but this isn't going to accomplish that. I don't see much point in changing the cape now or redefining it (which is what this requirement is).

 

Also, on a minor note, just as with the Warmonger title, I'd like this title to be somewhat unique and optional (i.e. those of us who like titles or the activities associated with particular titles get them to show our affinity with it because we actually enjoy the content, such as myself). I got the Warmonger title, and the Daemonheim title, not because I was ever going to trim, but because I like DG and that particular title. Similarly, as a PVMer, I will easily get the Reaper title (the reward for killing all bosses once) regardless of whether it is a completionist requirement or not, because I like that sort of stuff. Let people like me get it if we want, and leave the skillers to do whatever they're doing.

 

Yes, but the completionist cape is not meant to include only the activities that most people spend their time doing (or even ENJOY spending their time doing). It's meant to include what seems to reasonably represent the sum of all of RS' core activities and goals. If we were to follow your logic, then we should remove anything from the completionist requirements that most people don't enjoy doing such as Livid Farm while we're at it.

[Hedgehog]

The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with having players kill bosses for a completionist cape, but it is wrong to move requirements from the trimmed version to the normal one. So if it's a trim requirement to kill Vorago and it's a trim requirement to kill the barrows brothers, killing other bosses shouldn't be a normal comp requirement.

[Quasar]

have any requirements ever been moved from trim to normal or visa-versa?

[Alg]

You can start PvM as a mid-level player and work your way up from there. There's so many bosses now, and not all of them are exclusive to high level players. And like I said earlier, by the point that you have all the other comp requirements fulfilled, it's silly to act like killing the high level bosses is some sort of insurmountable obstacle suddenly shoved upon you >_>

 

Edit: Yeah Yuj and SM already addressed my points.

I did start as a mid-level PvMer around the same time (And I still do "lower"-level PvM fairly regularly: have to get drygores for the stronger stuff somehow), and I really don't really see how maging Rex or soloing the GWD bosses prepares me for something like Nex, let alone Vorago.

 

It's not insurmountable, and I'm not arguing that. It's just wildly different from everything else on the requirement. That's the point I'm trying to make. Is it so hard to say that without people assuming I want to dumb down the game?!

[Saradomin_Mage]

Trim used to require maxing out Temple Trekking and Dominion Tower, which later became regular reqs due to task sets.

[Yoko Kurama]

The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with having players kill bosses for a completionist cape, but it is wrong to move requirements from the trimmed version to the normal one. So if it's a trim requirement to kill Vorago and it's a trim requirement to kill the barrows brothers, killing other bosses shouldn't be a normal comp requirement.

 

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with adding bosses to the comp cape or buffing up the PVM requirements for trim cape, or even adding extreme PVM requirements to either or both cape, or changing trim cape requirements to comp cape (something Jagex has done in the past with POP, I think). I just think since comp cape has been this way for so long (tailored more towards skillers than other aspects of the game), and that this more or less reflects Runescape's current demographics, that if they are going to redefine the comp cape, they need an exceptional reason to do this - which I haven't seen yet.

[Hedgehog]

have any requirements ever been moved from trim to normal or visa-versa?

Yeah. The few times it happened were pretty reasonable in that they could have been trim or normal in the first place, which would also apply to our current dilemma, but it was still a pretty dastardly thing to do to players.

[muggiwhplar]

 

You can start PvM as a mid-level player and work your way up from there. There's so many bosses now, and not all of them are exclusive to high level players. And like I said earlier, by the point that you have all the other comp requirements fulfilled, it's silly to act like killing the high level bosses is some sort of insurmountable obstacle suddenly shoved upon you >_>

 

Edit: Yeah Yuj and SM already addressed my points.

I did start as a mid-level PvMer around the same time (And I still do "lower"-level PvM fairly regularly: have to get drygores for the stronger stuff somehow), and I really don't really see how maging Rex or soloing the GWD bosses prepares me for something like Nex, let alone Vorago.

 

It's not insurmountable, and I'm not arguing that. It's just wildly different from everything else on the requirement. That's the point I'm trying to make. Is it so hard to say that without people assuming I want to dumb down the game?!

 

The Fight Kiln, Tormented Demons, the QBD, and the Kalphite King require "strategy" and "mechanics," just as the top tier bosses do, albeit to a lesser degree. Given the existence of bosses like that, I don't think you have a very strong point, as those bosses do a good job of initiating the transition from very basic bosses like GWD and DKs to the top-tier bosses.

[Yoko Kurama]

The most egregious example (I think it's an example, I am not sure) was when they randomly decided to make PoP storyline completion a comp req. It didn't affect me at all since I have have done Ports hard from the beginning, but a lot of other players who didn't care for Ports (they had no reason to do so, since when it was released Jagex didn't announce any comp reqs) but were comp were suddenly without comp capes and had to wait a couple of months to get it back.

[muggiwhplar]

It's unfair, yeah. But it also makes sense. Especially in the long-run.

 

The comp cape was added because people needed something to strive for when they felt like they'd already done everything in the game. Now they're upset that they keep having things to do to hold on to their cape :P

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

 

A lot of minigames are also excluded from the Comp Cape. At the end 2013, there was an official poll asking which of the major updates during the year the players enjoyed the most. Do you know how much ROTS and Vorago had? One of them received 1% and the other one was 4% or so of the vote. I think, Diviniation by contrast had like 15-17% of the vote.

 

High level PVM is a very elite activity that only a very few people engage in. Often, at times, the forum threads for finding Vorago and ROTS teams are completely dead.

Obtaining a completionist cape is also a very high level and elite activity that only a very few people engage in. That vote was polled by EVERY RS PLAYER, not just PvM'ers and not just completionists. Therefore, those statistics are irrelevant to the issue, unless every player who voted in that poll intends to obtain a completionist cape. Even then, a player's opinion is irrelevant to what is and what is not considered a completionist requirement.

 

This issue only affects a very small minority of the playerbase. Out of the hundreds of thousands of RS players out there, how many of them have completionist capes? Of the players with completionist capes, how many of them are "completely incapable" of ever killing every RS boss, even with hours and hours of practice?

 

Do you see my point yet? >_>

 

 

The poll is not terribly relevant, but it does reflect what everyone knows to be the case. Most of the players are oriented towards skilling. 

 

There's dozen and dozens of Comp (and some Trim) players who don't do PVM at all. They probably could learn given the time, and effort. But the community is by and large a skilling one (even at the high end levels). The comp cape has until recently reflected that (the bulk of the requirements were skills, quests, and certain minigames, and diary requirements). There's nothing wrong with gearing it more towards PVM, but this isn't going to accomplish that. I don't see much point in changing the cape now or redefining it (which is what this requirement is).

 

Also, on a minor note, just as with the Warmonger title, I'd like this title to be somewhat unique and optional (i.e. those of us who like titles or the activities associated with particular titles get them to show our affinity with it because we actually enjoy the content, such as myself). I got the Warmonger title, and the Daemonheim title, not because I was ever going to trim, but because I like DG and that particular title. Similarly, as a PVMer, I will easily get the Reaper title (the reward for killing all bosses once) regardless of whether it is a completionist requirement or not, because I like that sort of stuff. Let people like me get it if we want, and leave the skillers to do whatever they're doing.

 

Yes, but the completionist cape is not meant to include only the activities that most people spend their time doing (or even ENJOY spending their time doing). It's meant to include what seems to reasonably represent the sum of all of RS' core activities and goals. If we were to follow your logic, then we should remove anything from the completionist requirements that most people don't enjoy doing such as Livid Farm while we're at it.

 

 

I have been advocating the removal of Livid for years. In fact, I almost didn't comp myself because of how horrible I regarded Livid to be. No argument from me there. :D (I am just having fun, don't worry, not ignoring your intended point).

 

I just think this PVM requirement is going split the community more, and cause more harm than any good it does. It will also cause resentment in the skilling segment of compers who don't PVM, and it will cause resentment within the PVM community if the forums/teams are flooded with noobs desperately trying to get their comp capes back. It will also be leeched (which could be fixed with mechanics, but Jagex won't add damage requirements, thus making this requirement self-defeating). Things have been a certain way (skilling and skillers have gained preeminence) and my feeling is for Jagex to just leave it that way for now. That has been reflected in the comp cape (with the two exceptions SM mentioned) for years, and it may as well be left like that.

[muggiwhplar]

I think a lot of this would largely become a non-issue if people didn't feel obligated/entitled to a comp cape to begin with. It's meant to be outrageously "difficult" and time-consuming to obtain. You guys' arguments seem to ultimately claim that the comp cape is too difficult to obtain, as if EVERY player should be capable of obtaining one, rather than an extremely tiny elite minority. I think you guys would be a lot happier if you just removed the expectation of the comp cape from your mind altogether, just like I did when it was originally announced. Spend hundreds of hours doing things I don't enjoy for a lousy cape that nobody besides me gives a shit about? Yeah no thanks, I'll pass on that one :P

[Steph]

I don't think a majority of community cares, there is just a more vocal group of disagreers

[Urza285]

Best discussion thats not a future update discussion. EVER!

[Quasar]

I think a lot of this would largely become a non-issue if people didn't feel obligated/entitled to a comp cape to begin with. It's meant to be outrageously "difficult" and time-consuming to obtain. You guys' arguments seem to ultimately claim that the comp cape is too difficult to obtain, as if EVERY player should be capable of obtaining one, rather than an extremely tiny elite minority. I think you guys would be a lot happier if you just removed the expectation of the comp cape from your mind altogether, just like I did when it was originally announced. Spend hundreds of hours doing things I don't enjoy for a lousy cape that nobody besides me gives a shit about? Yeah no thanks, I'll pass on that one :P

I might add that the presence of 120 capes makes comp capes less of a requirement in many players' minds.  I for one feel much less obligated to do things I don't like to get a comp cape when I could instead aim my sights at say, 120 magic, range, and summoning.

[Yoko Kurama]

I think a lot of this would largely become a non-issue if people didn't feel obligated/entitled to a comp cape to begin with. It's meant to be outrageously "difficult" and time-consuming to obtain. You guys' arguments seem to ultimately claim that the comp cape is too difficult to obtain, as if EVERY player should be capable of obtaining one, rather than an extremely tiny elite minority. I think you guys would be a lot happier if you just removed the expectation of the comp cape from your mind altogether, just like I did when it was originally announced. Spend hundreds of hours doing things I don't enjoy for a lousy cape that nobody besides me gives a shit about? Yeah no thanks, I'll pass on that one :P

 

This requirement will not affect me. I have already beaten every single boss in the game (and I regularly do RoTS/Rago), and if or when this requirement comes out, if Jagex recognizes all the kills I have done, I will already have it, or I will organize my team, and get it within 1 hour or so at most or whatever the minimum time is to beat every boss in the game (which is nothing). The day a requirement comes that I can no longer do for comp or no longer want to do for comp, I will simply abstain from it, and life will go on. (I originally boycotted comp for 6 months because I thought Livid was [bleep]ing stupid.)

 

I reject this requirement simply because of the other externalities it will have on the community. Do a lot of them go back to entitlement issues? Sure. But the community is entitled, and there will a lot of butthurt, animosity, drama and division if comp skillers have to do this. I don't see much benefit coming out of that.