There is a popular theory among Runescape players: mainly that the presence of rares somehow either, IS the economy, or helps the economy by giving rich players something to spend their money on besides utilitarian items, thereby helping to keep prices lower for all non-rare assets.

 

 

 

Regarding the claim that the Runescape IS rares.

 

 

 

There are two different types of assets, both in the real world and in Runescape. There are assets that are valued based on their underlying economic utility; corn, cars and houses would be examples of these. Their dollar value is based on their worth to individuals in working, playing or just living. Then there are assets whose value is determined by their collectablity; Rembrandts in the real world and rares in Runescape would be examples of these. Their value is based on their attractiveness to collectors due to their quality, style or rarity.

 

 

 

Since in the real world and in Runescape, people spend well over 99% of their time dealing with utilitarian issues, such as mining, fishing, working, eating etc., those activities are what forms the economy. Time is allocated by individuals based on what kind of underlying utilitarian benefits they can get from their activities. If they amass sufficient wealth, and have an interest in collectables, they may buy some. But, otherwise, they are concerned with paying the mortgage which is due next Friday, or buying some sharks to go pking.

 

 

 

Collectables are not the economy in the real world. That would make no sense at all. They are not what people spend any more than a tiny fraction of their time thinking about. And, unless you are selling part of your collection for cash, they do not put bread on the table. In the same way, rares are not the economy in Runescape. That would be equally as silly. To say that the economy in Runescape is rares, is the same as saying that the economy in the real world is Rembrandts, Qing dynasty armorial plates and early US colonial copper coins. Economics are based on the items people use day in and day out to function, not the value of the items in their collections, regardless of how valuable those items may be.

 

 

 

Regarding the claim the rares provide rich people an outlet besides things like sharks, whips and coal ore to buy, thereby keeping down the prices of utilitarian items.

 

 

 

This would make some sense if the market in rares functioned like a Central Bank. A Central Bank can increase or decrease the money supply in an economy. It can sell its own paper, thereby taking money out of supply, or it can buy its own paper and put more money into the system. But rares can do neither of those things.

 

 

 

If Person A sells a phat for $250 million to Person B, the $250 million does leave the economy; it just goes from one bank account to another. Person A has $250 million more, and Person B has the same amount less. So, how does this keep any rich person from spending money on coal ore, thereby driving up the price of coal? Person A now has the same problem as Person B had before the transaction; he has $250 million he needs to spend on something. He could do like Person B, and buy a phat from Person C, but this just shifts the same money to one more account. Nothing really gets accomplished.

 

 

 

Let us throw a cash poor person into this. Cash Poor Person A sells his phat to Cash Rich Person B for $250 million. Now formerly Cash Poor Person A has the same problem as B. Maybe A will spend his new found cash in ways in which B would not, fulfilling some long delayed desire to level up magic for instance. But then again, B may have been thinking the same thing. How are we to know who is willing to keep their wealth in cash, phats, coal ore, sharks or any other asset in the game?

 

 

 

Simply, rares do not bring new money into the game, nor do they remove money from the game. Since trading in them only moves money from one person to another, and it is impossible to determine what the seller is going to do with his cash, rares have very little impact on the REAL economy. They simply move the possible use of cash from one decision maker to another. The only way rares would have any real impact is if they pull new cash into the game. So, high alc a phat if you want to see it have some effect on the Runescape economy. But, I believe that additional 1gp can be easily absorbed in the normal course of activities.

 

 

 

The only real question is who is going to own the rares, and who is going to own cash. For the economy as a whole, after a transaction in rares occurs, neither the number of rares nor the amount of cash changes. For the economy, transactions in rares are a wash.

 

 

 

I am not making any argument for or against rares here. All I am saying is that the claims about the effects of rares on the Runescape economy are based purely on a lack of understanding of how economic systems, and money and banking, really work. So, when you see posts that claim to be about the Runescape economy, and they are only talking about rares, please understand that they are talking bogus economics.

Yea i never heard of someone claiming the rares market is the economy. They would be stupid if they did. It's just an add on for rich players. It even functions differently to the rest of the economy.

you just can't stay down can you? drop it. the rares will never leave. and they are keeping our economy aloft. so just quit if ur having a major problem dealing with the reality of runescape :evil:

Bravo :)

 

 

 

That was a good read good comparing there... hope to see more topics like this and yeah im interested in economy which is why ive started merching :P

Double post soz

 

And, unless you are selling part of your collection for cash, they do not put bread on the table. In the same way, rares are not the economy in Runescape. That would be equally as silly. To say that the economy in Runescape is rares, is the same as saying that the economy in the real world is Rembrandts, Qing dynasty armorial plates and early US colonial copper coins.

 

 

 

You should not neglect the amount of cash that has been concentraded in the hands of the "high level" players due to rares. The cash redistributed in Runescape due to the presence of rares is NOT neglectable, which is a lot different to real world collectables. In the real world the percentual amount of cash redistribued due to collectables can be neglected. And this cash in the hands of the "high level" players have an impact back onto the raw materials market. So the role of rares in the runescape economy is not too small (in percent of cash volume transfered). I agree with you, that the views of the Runescape economy beeing "based on" or stabilized by rares and all that is nonsense.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

Of course! *Slaps head in comical manner*

 

 

 

Your right, obviously. I had previously subscribed to the 'stops them spending it on Nats' theory, but now I see its flaws. (I say flaws, when really it is just plain wrong)

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you will agree though that what will effect the economy is those people saving their money to buy a rare. And from the inflation in rare values, I'm assuming that there are more people wanting them than there are available for sale. So the money will sit in the banks unspent while they save it up, and that amount of money gets larger and larger.

 

 

 

And since rare values are rising quicker than the values of raw materials, people are having to save longer, keeping more money out of circulation longer.

 

 

 

I feel there is a deep and meaningful point behind my ramblings, but its just out of reach. PaulHartMan - you seem to know about economics. Please tell me what my ramblings mean for the economy (if my assumptions are even correct)

Rares do not bring money into the game they just repressent money for most people and are accepted to rise - therefore earning you theoretical money from them. You've certainly put about your arguements strongly but rares are here to stay so just accept it please.

omg its like an economics lesson all over again, i have to agree with you tho

*Sigh* If person A pays Person B 250M cash then the money is simply transfered.

 

 

 

If Person A sell's their phat to this shop of your which you made up then they would i turn get 250M, as well as person B who has the 250M doubling the money the merchants have.

 

 

 

Think it through again please.

Paulhartman, you are the person who I can talk to. An impresive post about rares NOT being the economy. It is good to see how the Runescape Economy (RE) is working. This makes the game more interesting as a MMORPG.

 

 

 

Also I'd like to add, rares do stimulate the economy. This is because many people are trying to obtain a rare item. In their quest for this beautifull item, they mine coal, chop yews or any way they like. They have set themselves a goal which increases the amount of resources, thus increasing the amount of money put in the game.

 

 

 

So rares do actually play a role in RE, but like you said, they are not the entire RE.

Paulhartman, you are the person who I can talk to. An impresive post about rares NOT being the economy. It is good to see how the Runescape Economy (RE) is working. This makes the game more interesting as a MMORPG.

 

 

 

Also I'd like to add, rares do stimulate the economy. This is because many people are trying to obtain a rare item. In their quest for this beautifull item, they mine coal, chop yews or any way they like. They have set themselves a goal which increases the amount of resources, thus increasing the amount of money put in the game.

 

 

 

So rares do actually play a role in RE, but like you said, they are not the entire RE.

Paulhartman, you are the person who I can talk to. An impresive post about rares NOT being the economy. It is good to see how the Runescape Economy (RE) is working. This makes the game more interesting as a MMORPG.

 

 

 

Also I'd like to add, rares do stimulate the economy. This is because many people are trying to obtain a rare item. In their quest for this beautifull item, they mine coal, chop yews or any way they like. They have set themselves a goal which increases the amount of resources, thus increasing the amount of money put in the game.

 

 

 

So rares do actually play a role in RE, but like you said, they are not the entire RE.

Sorry for this impresive 4x post, I had incredible lag because my internet failed.. it is back now.. (been to long).. sorry for this inconvieniens

I find it ironic that you see the need to create 2 topics about the same topic (rares are not important) :lol:.

 

 

 

Sigh... Your arguements are flawed in like a billion ways.

 

 

 

There are assets that are valued based on their underlying economic utility; corn, cars and houses would be examples of these....

 

...Then there are assets whose value is determined by their collectablity; Rembrandts in the real world and rares in Runescape would be examples of these. Their value is based on their attractiveness to collectors due to their quality, style or rarity.

 

 

 

IF you had really known what you are talking about, then you would have known that quality, style and rarity are aspects of utility as well. How on earth can you argue that rares don't have utility? The utility value of a product decides what people are willing to pay for the product - rares have huge utility values, hence their price.

 

 

 

Collectables are not the economy in the real world.

 

 

 

Guess what, the real world and RuneScape are not comparable on everything... :roll:

 

 

 

Regarding the claim the rares provide rich people an outlet besides things like sharks, whips and coal ore to buy, thereby keeping down the prices of utilitarian items.

 

 

 

As someone else already said, rares keep prices of other products down because it makes people stash gp away to spare for a rare.

 

 

 

All I am saying is that the claims about the effects of rares on the Runescape economy are based purely on a lack of understanding of how economic systems, and money and banking, really work.

 

 

 

Yay, I'm glad you posted that. I almost feared you weren't going to say others don't what they are talking about.

 

 

 

As I also replied on that in the other thread you made about rares, it is generally true that the people who say that others don't know what they are talking about, don't know what they are talking about themselves. :D

Meh. I say Jagex just finds the item values of rare items, doubles them, and then auto-exchanges the money for the rare item. This of course would happen to every player at the same time during a system update.

 

 

 

It would destroy rare items in a fair manner.

 

 

 

I suppose in the place of party hats Jagex could create sick lvl 80 and 90 weapons that cost like 5-25 mill for lvl 80 and certain lvl 90 weapons that would cost 50-250 mill.

 

 

 

I don't know. We aren't Jagex so we can't do anything. Darn! :wink:

Is it me or was the other topic still open? Did someone lock it by any chance? Was it absolutely necessary to start another one?

 

 

 

This is starting to sound like a personal crusade against rares, rather than the kind of thing you claimed it to be at first.

 

 

 

Your comparison of RS rares to real life collectible items makes me laugh, to say the least. There's so much more to it than what you make it to be, i don't even know where to start. In your view, economy is a simple matter of relating usefullness and value of items. It is oooh so much more than that!

 

 

 

On your example of the 250mill, the problem doesn't just propagate itselft, you're wrong. One of two things happens: either money is removed from the economy eventualy (like with construction now) or it is kept by someone in bank. It isn't linear that the money will eventualy go to comodities, this is not true.

 

 

 

That's why the rares prices are ever increasing, exactly because the money ISN'T going to comodities, but instead to increasingly more expensive rares. In short, the money doesn't reach that point you talked about. It just keeps moving until out of the game.

 

 

 

If it wasn't for the inflation in rares prices, there wouldn't be ANY stable prices in RS comodities. The inflation would be propagated to everything else, as happens in real life.

 

 

 

Yes, RS economy is different from RL economy in that way. Outside of the game we have inflation in everything, inside there isn't. I for one, like it better this way. I prefer to have a few (very expensive) items in the economy increase in prices than everything else.

Duke pretty much summed it up....

 

 

 

 

 

You claim that rares mean nothing and are useless and you dont care to ever own one and blah blah blah...Then WHY put so much time and effort into these posts and trying to make people believe the same? The fact is you are jealous.

 

 

 

Get over the fact that you cant afford a rare because they rise faster then you can attempt to make money. Drop the subject, they are hear to stay. :shock: shocker isnt it!

if there was no rares in the economy, 2 things might happen.

 

 

 

1. Everyone would spend more money on everything else.

 

 

 

2. there would be a lot more 99's

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Collectables are not the economy in the real world. That would make no sense at all. They are not what people spend any more than a tiny fraction of their time thinking about. And, unless you are selling part of your collection for cash, they do not put bread on the table. In the same way, rares are not the economy in Runescape. That would be equally as silly. To say that the economy in Runescape is rares, is the same as saying that the economy in the real world is Rembrandts, Qing dynasty armorial plates and early US colonial copper coins. Economics are based on the items people use day in and day out to function, not the value of the items in their collections, regardless of how valuable those items may be.

 

 

 

Regarding the claim the rares provide rich people an outlet besides things like sharks, whips and coal ore to buy, thereby keeping down the prices of utilitarian items.

 

 

 

This would make some sense if the market in rares functioned like a Central Bank. A Central Bank can increase or decrease the money supply in an economy. It can sell its own paper, thereby taking money out of supply, or it can buy its own paper and put more money into the system. But rares can do neither of those things.

 

 

 

If Person A sells a phat for $250 million to Person B, the $250 million does leave the economy; it just goes from one bank account to another. Person A has $250 million more, and Person B has the same amount less. So, how does this keep any rich person from spending money on coal ore, thereby driving up the price of coal? Person A now has the same problem as Person B had before the transaction; he has $250 million he needs to spend on something. He could do like Person B, and buy a phat from Person C, but this just shifts the same money to one more account. Nothing really gets accomplished.

 

 

 

Let us throw a cash poor person into this. Cash Poor Person A sells his phat to Cash Rich Person B for $250 million. Now formerly Cash Poor Person A has the same problem as B. Maybe A will spend his new found cash in ways in which B would not, fulfilling some long delayed desire to level up magic for instance. But then again, B may have been thinking the same thing. How are we to know who is willing to keep their wealth in cash, phats, coal ore, sharks or any other asset in the game?

 

 

 

Simply, rares do not bring new money into the game, nor do they remove money from the game. Since trading in them only moves money from one person to another, and it is impossible to determine what the seller is going to do with his cash, rares have very little impact on the REAL economy. They simply move the possible use of cash from one decision maker to another. The only way rares would have any real impact is if they pull new cash into the game. So, high alc a phat if you want to see it have some effect on the Runescape economy. But, I believe that additional 1gp can be easily absorbed in the normal course of activities.

 

 

 

The only real question is who is going to own the rares, and who is going to own cash. For the economy as a whole, after a transaction in rares occurs, neither the number of rares nor the amount of cash changes. For the economy, transactions in rares are a wash.

 

 

 

I am not making any argument for or against rares here. All I am saying is that the claims about the effects of rares on the Runescape economy are based purely on a lack of understanding of how economic systems, and money and banking, really work. So, when you see posts that claim to be about the Runescape economy, and they are only talking about rares, please understand that they are talking bogus economics.

 

 

 

Collectibles in the real world and rares in RS serve the purpose of a vent for putting money back into the economy for those who have too much liquidity (wealth is in easily tradeable currency). As the economy grows, the more successful individual/ player collects more and more wealth in cash/gp. There are limits to what a player can (or wants to) spend on commodities depending on their goals. Once the goals are achieved, the rest of the cash just stays with the individual and the cash pile keeps growing forever unless it can be spent on an item that also rises in value to keep pace with the growth of these cash piles.

 

 

 

Rares serve the role of being these items that are always growing in price at about the rate of growth of the cash pile of those who keep generating cash (alchers for the most part) or those who collect the cash through trades (merchants).

 

 

 

The rares do not concentrate money in the hands of the rich-- instead they distribute the cash into the rest of the economy. It may increase the "potential" wealth if you value the items at their market value but it does not increase the gp available to the owner of the rare.

Without rares there will be huge inflation, causing everything going up in price. Rares "hold" a lot of money. There is say x gp worth of rares. Without rares, it will be the current gp+ x gp= BIG NUMBER.

 

Inflation=higher prices=Bad

hmmmm.... I dont really quite agree with everything you've said....

 

 

 

Some people in reality do make their living off of selling collectables.... One of my immediate family members being one of them....

 

 

 

Also, like duke said, rares act as a buffer for economic crisises. When POH came out, what took the biggest hit in prices? RARES! Yes, some items that were pretty pricey (EX- Verac Armor, 6 mil to 5 mil!) dropped in prices, but all the other things stayed pretty level. It's always just changing percentages around from what gets the most money; the percentages are always there, rares really are helping the economy if you think about it instead of bashing them saying that they're sucking up all the money in the RS world!

"Also I'd like to add, rares do stimulate the economy. This is because many people are trying to obtain a rare item. In their quest for this beautifull item, they mine coal, chop yews or any way they like. They have set themselves a goal which increases the amount of resources, thus increasing the amount of money put in the game."

 

 

 

That is true. Anything that encourages economic activity stimulates the economy. The new construction skill for instance has to be causing a significant increase in activity. It was not a coincidence that they added a lot of new serves just after construction was released.

 

 

 

However, I would also like to look at this from Jagexâââ‰â¢s point of view. Do they really care very much about the Runesape economy? If I was them, as long as people were having a good gaming experience, would I care if whips were 3 million or 8 million? If I was them, I would mostly use the market prices as an indication of what changes may be needed. If coal ore prices rose by a considerable amount, it may be I need to add more coal mining locations, maybe closer to a bank. After all, a considerable amount of information is contained in market prices, as long as the market is fair and unmanipulated anyway.

Duke Freedom says: IF you had really known what you are talking about, then you would have known that quality, style and rarity are aspects of utility as well. How on earth can you argue that rares don't have utility? The utility value of a product decides what people are willing to pay for the product - rares have huge utility values, hence their price.

 

 

 

My reply: Clearly you did not understand what I was saying about how some assets have utility by their ability to help in the production of goods and services, or in providing necessities for life, and how some assets do not have a day to day practical role but are valued for their collectability.

 

 

 

The fact that people are willing to pay huge amounts of money for something does not make it what I call utilitarian. Let me give you an example: Rembrandts. The utilitarian value of a Rembrandt is its value as a wall hanging. So to determine its value as that you would look at what it is worth compared to a commercial wall hanging. Go to a picture gallery and you can find plenty of fine prints for about $50. So, the utilitarian value of a Rembrandt is $50, while the collectable value may be $5 million.

 

 

 

So, for phats, their utilitarian value is what similar noncollectable items sell for in the game. You can buy a hat for from zero to a couple hundred gp or so. So, the utilitarian value of a phat is 200 gp. The difference between what it sells for is the collectable value. In the case of phats that is virtually its entire price. Do you understand now?

 

 

 

That is just about as clear as I can say it. I apologize for my inability to make myself clearer.

 

 

 

Duke Freedom says: As someone else already said, rares keep prices of other products down because it makes people stash gp away to spare for a rare.

 

 

 

My reply: This is just timing. As one person is saving, another is spending. This is the way it works in the real world also. So the money being saved is out of circulation for a period of time. So what? And, since the person has money to stash, and is still trying to earn more money to buy his phat, that means he is still engaged in activity. If he needs cash to do something, like buying coal, he still does it. It would not make sense to intentionally ignore a real pressing need that would allow you to earn a considerable amount of money just because you want to keep that money in the bank? Take it out, spend it, earn your profit and then bank it. The really convenient aspect to this reply of mine is that it actually conforms TO WHAT PEOPLE DO.

 

 

 

Duke Freedom says: As I also replied on that in the other thread you made about rares, it is generally true that the people who say that others don't know what they are talking about, don't know what they are talking about themselves.

 

 

 

My reply: And in this case it is true that I do know what I am talking about because my statements are actually based on economics, and not the wishful thinking of a rares merchanter. You actually did not refute a single thing I said - let me add you would have to refute a considerable amount of economic theory to do so, so I am not the least be surprised

Genjui says: This is starting to sound like a personal crusade against rares, rather than the kind of thing you claimed it to be at first.

 

 

 

My reply: Did you not read the part where I said, âââ¬ÃâI am not making any argument for or against rares here.âââ¬Ã