America - benign or a menance?

This was inspired by the post about which you thought was more dangerous - the USA or Afganistan, which can be found here

What I am talking about is international relations and politics. Just to make it clear.

The question is - is American benign or an international menace in comparison to countrys like Pakistan, North Korea or Iran.

This discussion will be given that the following facts are true:

There are two main ways in which a country may exert diplomatic or political power - through economic sanctions or through miltary actions (those will be the broad basis of the following posts)

Religious involvement is very high in the government of all the countries involved - North Korea has enforced atheism, Pakistan and Iran are both Muslim and America I will explain: Although America does not have a national or enforced religion, Christianity is the most prominient of all the religions. This is not a bad thing in and of itself. What is frightening and disturbing for many independant observers - I am one such person from the UK - is the massive political power the American Christian Right wields - issues like abortion, euthanaisa, organ transplantation, law and order, censorship and even international descisons such as going to war, all are greatly influenced by the American Christian Right. This is disturbing for many people feel, and I am one of them, that politics should be as secular as possible.

America posses the current strongest economy (although not the fastest growing), and the greatest military might - the American military budget is greater than the rest of the world's put together. They have more neuclear weapons than anyone else, and the capability to destroy every capital city on Earth in 10 minuites. Although China's standing army is larger than America's (China has one million men in thier standing army)

Pakistan has had neuclear capabilities for quite a few years now, and has a reasonably strong military, hardend by border skirmishes with India. The have a very strong muslim presence in thier government. Thier economy is growing, although not nearly as fast as neighboring India - analyst have blamed this on Islamic Conservatism.

North Korea is still a dictaorship, and are developing the methods by which they can laucnh neuclear warheads - the experitse to do so was given them by a pakistani professor, who also offered to arm Libya and Iran. They have a reasonably strong military, but not much greater than the average. They have quite a weak economy - in stark contrast with thier southern Neighbor, South Korea, whose economy is growing exponentialy. North Korea are still not part of the UN.

Iran is working towards neuclear capability, if it does nto have it already. It has a reasonably strong military, and a democraticly elected Muslim Extreemist governemnt. This suggests that there is at least strong extreemist support in Iran, even if it may not be a majority view. Thier economy isn't much greater than most.

I TAKE NO SIDES IN THIS DEBATE, I WANT TO KNOW YOUR OPINION. IF ANY OF THE FACTS I HAVE STATED ARE INCORRECT, PLEASE POST HERE IF YOU CAN SUBSTANCIATE THAT THEY ARE

Edits: size of China's army - thanks to darkrick

I personally consider China to be a bigger military power than America, but it is hardly dangerous at the current time (and I highly doubt it ever will be). Also, I believe Russia has the most nuclear weapons. Anyhow, to answer the actually question:

Yes, America is being a bit of a menance compared to other countries.

Most of the middle-east and regions thereabout tend to go to war against each other. And the USA seems to believe that it has the right to overthrow anyone it feels like just because it can. Yes I know there is a lot of factors that come into play, but sometimes you're a lot better off it you just don't give a damn.

However, if it wanted to do something usefull, it'd make a presence at the Gaza Strip - a war zone that's been on-off for the last 20+ years. But since none of them have nuclear capabilities, the American Administration sees no point. After all, they are a threat to "international security".

Well America go to war with anyone that don't fit into their ideology of der-moc-racy. They most of the time ignore the UN and are about as predictable as a cannon. I think by far they're the most dangerous, what we need is another wall street crash to stop them from creating more wars...

about as predictable as a cannon

 

It has a reasonably strong military, and a democraticly elected Muslim Extreemist governemnt. This suggests that the majority people of Iran support extreemism, which appears especialy dangerous. Thier economy isn't much greater than most.

 

so not true. the boyfriend of my sister is persian so i learned pretty much about iran in the last couple of years.

Iran was ruled by a pro-west dictator about 20 years ago. In that time religion had much less power. eventually the corrupt Shah was overtthrown in 1979 by the religious leaders of the country. since then Iran is a republic. as an important sidenote, Persians are shiiten, whereas all other moslems are shintoits. (don't ask, what's the differenc, because i don't know.) Iran has a different culture then say the iraq. shintos are mainly Arabs, whereas shiits are Persian.

well anyway.. when the shiintos gained power, naturally things changed. probably the most famous is the veil. before that women didn't need to wear one, and it wasn't accepted easily, especially by intelectual women and students.

from 1997 till 2005 the president of iran came form the liberal reformer party, but he was unable to set himself through against the since the end of the shah regim strong religious fundamentalists. because of that the current president was elected in a close vote. he (as you know) is known as a religious hardliner, but he was mainly voted (in an election with an noteable low vote turnout) because he addressed the problems of the common people like unemployement and povertry.

that's about what i know. bottom line is, that i wouldn't say, that the majority of persian support religious extremists.

so back to the actual topic. i believe, that behind americas numerous military activities lies a strong economical motivation. the enormous weapons industry isn't particular uninfluental and every war adds to their budget.

 

It has a reasonably strong military, and a democraticly elected Muslim Extreemist governemnt. This suggests that the majority people of Iran support extreemism, which appears especialy dangerous. Thier economy isn't much greater than most.

 

 

 

 

so not true. the boyfriend of my sister is persian so i learned pretty much about iran in the last couple of years.

 

 

 

Iran was ruled by a pro-west dictator about 20 years ago. In that time religion had much less power. eventually the corrupt Shah was overtthrown in 1979 by the religious leaders of the country. since then Iran is a republic. as an important sidenote, Persians are shiiten, whereas all other moslems are shintoits. (don't ask, what's the differenc, because i don't know.) Iran has a different culture then say the iraq. shintos are mainly Arabs, whereas shiits are Persian.

 

 

 

well anyway.. when the shiintos gained power, naturally things changed. probably the most famous is the veil. before that women didn't need to wear one, and it wasn't accepted easily, especially by intelectual women and students.

 

 

 

from 1997 till 2005 the president of iran came form the liberal reformer party, but he was unable to set himself through against the since the end of the shah regim strong religious fundamentalists. because of that the current president was elected in a close vote. he (as you know) is known as a religious hardliner, but he was mainly voted (in an election with an noteable low vote turnout) because he addressed the problems of the common people like unemployement and povertry.

 

 

 

that's about what i know. bottom line is, that i wouldn't say, that the majority of persian support religious extremists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so back to the actual topic. i believe, that behind americas numerous military activities lies a strong economical motivation. the enormous weapons industry isn't particular uninfluental and every war adds to their budget.

there are no shinto's in Iran (well maybe about 3), there maybe a few sunis. I will edit out the part about the majority and say simply strong etreemist support.

thanks for starting up a new post based on mine but it will 65% chance of getting closed man

thanks for starting up a new post based on mine but it will 65% chance of getting closed man

I think yours was closed because you didnt state the objective clearly enough. I hope I have.

Your post isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t much better. There are many aspects to international relations and politics; you could be asking who has more political sway, which country hampers international peace, which country sticks to the rules better, etc. They all have to do with being an international menace; however I would assign different answers to each aspect. YouÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re not being very specific; also your assumptions are grossly simplified. What are we talking about when you mean menace?

Each country is equally menacing on the international stage, after all if you were the leader of a country you would want to be the one to ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâgainÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ the most out of anything (it could be anything from perceived power to profiteering off others). The way which a country does this may differ, however everyone wants the same outcome; being #1.

Every country has done there fair share at pushing their agenda, this just sounds like vilifying the countries who are pushing their agenda the loudest. You canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t say that other pushy superpowers (Like Britain, France, Germany, China, AustraliaÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâæ) and small troublesome nations (African nations warring, Coups in Pacific nationsÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâæ), donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t contribute much to the health of international politics. To state that one group of people are more of a menace then others, is just an invitation for more problems. You donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t solve problems by pointing fingers, because everyone will point to someone else.

If anything, Im afriad from everyone mentioned. They all possess the same danger equally. From the start I was worried that anyone had nuclear technology - nukes = bad, no matter who you are.

Whether it is America, Iran, China, N. Korea... Im afraid of them all.

Well America go to war with anyone that don't fit into their ideology of der-moc-racy. They most of the time ignore the UN and are about as predictable as a cannon. I think by far they're the most dangerous, what we need is another wall street crash to stop them from creating more wars...

If Wall Street crashed, I'm sure whatever country you're in would be affected in some way.

America is by far the most powerful country, but that doesn't mean we don't have idiots running it. I'm actually debating moving to Canada when I get a little older. Health care here costs $900 a month (WTF?), the people running our country are Christian's with Christian ideals in mind, NOT governing ideals in mind, our very own leader is an open Christian who is going to veto a stem-cell bill pretty soon here that could help MILLIONS of people, just because his religion hints that doing it one way, which is the way they won't be doing it (killing babies, lol...) is wrong.

I'm wondering what happened to seperation of Chruch and State in this country. People all of a sudden want to pull the pledge of alegiance out of schools just because it says the word "God" (hint: When I was a kid, I didn't know the difference, 'tards...), and now Christians want to force all their beliefs into our government system because they think that God is being pushed out of everywhere. (hint: The Bible says this is what will happen, and soon after, you'll all be saved...WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING? Scared? Thought so.)

If that Stem Cell bill gets vetoed by George Bush, I swear...I'm going to be angry. He has no right to veto something just because it goes against his religious beliefs, which is exactly the only reason he'd be doing it. He is obligated to put the people's needs ahead of his idealogy. (HAAA!)

Anywhoos...To answer the question, yes, America is a neusance, but only to ourselves. If our leader never started some imaginary problem to go to war, gas would still be $1.50 a gallon and everyone wouldn't be pissed off. Forcing democracy on people is something I laugh about, because honestly: Why should we care? It may sound mean, but it isn't our damned problem. If we were really doing it to help the PEOPLE out, North Korea would have been before Iraq. NK's leader is starving his people to death, yet we've done nothing there, so...Whatever.

Now, lets watch as most the Europeans bash America.... Ah, the "America-Flaming" has already started.

Yes, America can be a menace. But certain people on these boards can't stand America because..Well I don't know why. They say we are too over-weight, yeah, we have the highest amount of obese, I admit, so you hate us for that? If you don't want it spreading to your country do something about it don't just complain about how it's all America's fault. Some actually have the nerve to say we are stupid. Hell, someone was flaming us on why we weren't using the metric system.

Edit:

It's pretty much the stupid Americans! Why cant they accept the fact that the way they do EVERYTHING is wrong? They even spell wrong. It's annoying when you have to do some chemistry or something, but its in American units, so you have to convert...the losers.

As for the war, we went in for the right reason, but are staying there for the wrong I think. Instead of trying to keep a stable government for another country we should be hunting Al Quaida. Personally, from just the video I saw on the thread labeled "Disturbing..." I think some of the countries in the Middle East are just somewhat more intelligent cavemen with guns and bombs. Note I said "some" because some of you will try to flame me for that, as most of us know.

Well, thats my view on the topic, yes, America can be a menace, but it isn't a constant menace and that is what a lot of you are implying.

Rose

We went there to disarm Saddam (that was easy, he wasn't armed!) and to catch him. We did both. We're just staying there to train military and police. There are people there rebeling against this, and that is the reason they are giving for us staying.

It's a bad reason.

Lol, reading throughout, it's like the only country that went to war in the Middle-East was America :-s :?

Do I need to remind people as well that it's not only American forces that are in the Middle-East? United States, Great Britain, Australia, Japan, etc. are the people involved in the Iraq invasion. Even in Afghanistan, Canada, United Kingdom, the NATO, France, Germany, Australia, etc. are there.

Now, lets watch as all the Europeans bash America.... Ah, the "America-Flaming" has already started.

 

 

 

I think this is a bit unfair... it's not only Europeans who bash America: it's lots of people from lots of places in the world*.

*I'd say most, but that just makes it sound offensive, which I didn't intend.

Well America go to war with anyone that don't fit into their ideology of der-moc-racy. They most of the time ignore the UN and are about as predictable as a cannon. I think by far they're the most dangerous, what we need is another wall street crash to stop them from creating more wars...

That is true :thumbsup:

Exept I would like to add, that America ISN'T a Dercmocacy. It's a Republic.

Dercmocacy: The vote of the people affects laws/elections.

Republic: The vote of the people affects the represetatives, which the representatives vote on laws/other stuff.

"We the people" only vote for our represenatives. Then they do whatever THEY think is correct, without the voice of the people.

--

The US presidental voting thing, sucks. CA gets 10 ponits, New York gets 3 (just examples) thats just stupid...

~Nick

Now, lets watch as most the Europeans bash America.... Ah, the "America-Flaming" has already started.

I have nothing against America, its the leader of the country who i dislike. I consider America to be as much of a threat to world peace as I consider Russia, largely due to Bush.

Lol, reading throughout, it's like the only country that went to war in the Middle-East was America :-s :?

 

 

 

It is partly that reason that I consider America as dangerous as almost anyone else. If America chooses to attack Iran or Syria, chances are Russia and perhaps even China will support Iran. If that happens, Kim Jong Il will probably side with China against Israel.

On the other side much of western Europe along with Japan, Australia and New Zealand will support America and it is there that we have a global war. This is all speculation but it is far from impossible and given that it all hinges on America's decisions to get involved, I consider Americas choices the most important and therefore dangerous of the lot.

It is only that kind of scenario that would unite N. Korea and China. Therefore I think it's crucial that America does not directly involve her forces, but I don't have much faith in Mr Bush

 

If Wall Street crashed, I'm sure whatever country you're in would be affected in some way.

 

 

 

America is by far the most powerful country, but that doesn't mean we don't have idiots running it. I'm actually debating moving to Canada when I get a little older. Health care here costs $900 a month (*?), the people running our country are Christian's with Christian ideals in mind, NOT governing ideals in mind, our very own leader is an open Christian who is going to veto a stem-cell bill pretty soon here that could help MILLIONS of people, just because his religion hints that doing it one way, which is the way they won't be doing it (killing babies, lol...) is wrong.

I'm sorry, but are you a complete idiot? Canada's healthcare is so cheap because everything is socialized. They're taxes are 3 times as much as ours in America (give or take because of how much you make). Besides, there have been so many problems with the wait-list...

And about stem cells...You know, I've been wondering something. Why do you think killing millions of unborn babies worth saving a few thousand lives?

I'm wondering what happened to seperation of Chruch and State in this country. People all of a sudden want to pull the pledge of alegiance out of schools just because it says the word "God" (hint: When I was a kid, I didn't know the difference, 'tards...), and now Christians want to force all their beliefs into our government system because they think that God is being pushed out of everywhere. (hint: The Bible says this is what will happen, and soon after, you'll all be saved...WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING? Scared? Thought so.)

Separation of church and state was first mentioned by Thomas Jefferson in a leter to the anabaptists who were being persecuted by Puritans (I think they were the Puritans). It was never mentioned in our Constitution, Bill of Rights, or any official document. And we're not complaining that they're taking God out of the government. We're complaining that they're taking God out of everywhere.

If that Stem Cell bill gets vetoed by George Bush, I swear...I'm going to be angry. He has no right to veto something just because it goes against his religious beliefs, which is exactly the only reason he'd be doing it. He is obligated to put the people's needs ahead of his idealogy. (HAAA!)

I tend to think that it's foolish to save thousands at the expense of millions.

Anywhoos...To answer the question, yes, America is a neusance, but only to ourselves. If our leader never started some imaginary problem to go to war, gas would still be $1.50 a gallon and everyone wouldn't be pissed off. Forcing democracy on people is something I laugh about, because honestly: Why should we care? It may sound mean, but it isn't our damned problem. If we were really doing it to help the PEOPLE out, North Korea would have been before Iraq. NK's leader is starving his people to death, yet we've done nothing there, so...Whatever.

I'm sorry, but why wouldn't we care? Aren't we all supposed to care for each other?

 

Anywhoos...To answer the question, yes, America is a neusance, but only to ourselves. If our leader never started some imaginary problem to go to war, gas would still be $1.50 a gallon and everyone wouldn't be pissed off. Forcing democracy on people is something I laugh about, because honestly: Why should we care? It may sound mean, but it isn't our damned problem. If we were really doing it to help the PEOPLE out, North Korea would have been before Iraq. NK's leader is starving his people to death, yet we've done nothing there, so...Whatever.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but why wouldn't we care? Aren't we all supposed to care for each other?

Then why do we have borders, countries? Why not make 1 huge nation.

I say leave the other countries alone, they want to kill each themselfs. great go for it. As long as it doesn't infere with us, we should'nt even bother.

 

It has a reasonably strong military, and a democraticly elected Muslim Extreemist governemnt. This suggests that the majority people of Iran support extreemism, which appears especialy dangerous. Thier economy isn't much greater than most.

 

 

 

 

so not true. the boyfriend of my sister is persian so i learned pretty much about iran in the last couple of years.

 

 

 

Iran was ruled by a pro-west dictator about 20 years ago. In that time religion had much less power. eventually the corrupt Shah was overtthrown in 1979 by the religious leaders of the country. since then Iran is a republic. as an important sidenote, Persians are shiiten, whereas all other moslems are shintoits. (don't ask, what's the differenc, because i don't know.) Iran has a different culture then say the iraq. shintos are mainly Arabs, whereas shiits are Persian.

 

 

 

well anyway.. when the shiintos gained power, naturally things changed. probably the most famous is the veil. before that women didn't need to wear one, and it wasn't accepted easily, especially by intelectual women and students.

 

 

 

from 1997 till 2005 the president of iran came form the liberal reformer party, but he was unable to set himself through against the since the end of the shah regim strong religious fundamentalists. because of that the current president was elected in a close vote. he (as you know) is known as a religious hardliner, but he was mainly voted (in an election with an noteable low vote turnout) because he addressed the problems of the common people like unemployement and povertry.

 

 

 

that's about what i know. bottom line is, that i wouldn't say, that the majority of persian support religious extremists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so back to the actual topic. i believe, that behind americas numerous military activities lies a strong economical motivation. the enormous weapons industry isn't particular uninfluental and every war adds to their budget.

 

 

 

there are no shinto's in Iran (well maybe about 3), there maybe a few sunis. I will edit out the part about the majority and say simply strong etreemist support.

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh :wall: whatever

If our leader never started some imaginary problem to go to war, gas would still be $1.50 a gallon and everyone wouldn't be pissed off.

lol 1.50$ per gallon? over here it's 'bout 1.10ÃÆââââ¬Ã¡Ãâì per liter, but they are complaining as well. i say, do it as i do: just don't have a car =) :D (yah i know, it's eays to say that, when you live in a city.)

 

I tend to think that it's foolish to save thousands at the expense of millions.

 

i wouldn't agree on that per se.i feel sometimes it might be worth saving a single person at great expense (although not on all costs)

secondly i'm not sure if i'd call stem cells millions the same way then full grown people. then again (and i don't know more about that discussion, then i just googled for http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics) using those embryonic stem cells doesn't feel right. that's at least my first impression. adult stem cells seem fair game to me.

Adult stem cells seem fine to me.

I also see nothing wrong with them. Embryonic stem cells are merely humans who haven't been born yet. They are alive, just like any human. Destroying them by the millions to possibly save (they have very few results compared to adult stem cells) a few thousand seems terribly unfair.

I can see that there is a fair bit of Bush Bashing and American slanging. This is pretty fashionable in Europe at the moment. I would ask all posters to not do the following when they make comments:

Attack American because it is popular too

Attack the other countries because you have been taught to fear autocracy, dictatorship or non-democratic forms of government. Democracy is not the only form of Government, it's just the most popular. I advocate niether Democracy nor Tyranny, but remeber, they are different, and not necesarily worse than each other.

yeah you got me there but you got alot bigger posts then mine

 

Anywhoos...To answer the question, yes, America is a neusance, but only to ourselves. If our leader never started some imaginary problem to go to war, gas would still be $1.50 a gallon and everyone wouldn't be pissed off. Forcing democracy on people is something I laugh about, because honestly: Why should we care? It may sound mean, but it isn't our damned problem. If we were really doing it to help the PEOPLE out, North Korea would have been before Iraq. NK's leader is starving his people to death, yet we've done nothing there, so...Whatever.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but why wouldn't we care? Aren't we all supposed to care for each other?

 

 

 

Then why do we have borders, countries? Why not make 1 huge nation.

 

I say leave the other countries alone, they want to kill each themselfs. great go for it. As long as it doesn't infere with us, we should'nt even bother.

That's a philosophy that is flawed in today's society. A lesson that America learned as a country was that it's better to fight a war on your enemies' soil than to let them soil your homeland. Terrorists are not sane people, and if you don't believe me try walking down a street in Baghdad that is NOT policed by Americans. Saddam threatened to bring the chaos to our homeland, and our actions were the correct ones. Also, bringing stability to Iraq is a worthy goal for all nations.

On Topic: Are we dangerous? Absolutely, and we like to stay that way. To terrorists. 8-)

Adult stem cells seem fine to me.

 

 

 

I also see nothing wrong with them. Embryonic stem cells are merely humans who haven't been born yet. They are alive, just like any human. Destroying them by the millions to possibly save (they have very few results compared to adult stem cells) a few thousand seems terribly unfair.

People are being stupid thinking that Bush wants to stop stem cell research altogether :uhh: