Kimberly

...No. It's not on topic because it's a tangent that does not answer the question. Question: Talking about what anti bot measures or Jagex's business goals have no place in this thread. Do not turn this into a bot discussion. Simply answer the question and move on, this goes for everyone in the thread. Further posts will be removed.

I don't see what this line of discussion has to do with the original question. Drop it and stay on topic please.

Dude there are so many graphs I feel like I'm back in a statistics class. Wuddupwitdat. Grats RSD. The colors sort of burned my eyes but the summary of the fight was a good read. Unsurprised that you were led on a merry chase but it seems like despite that both sides fought strongly.

That's pretty normal eh I flipflopped on what I truly wanted to do in Uni too haha. Good luck to you. ^^ Sounds like you're giving yourself a lot of possibilities there with that choice of study. Very well-thought out. :)

It's the topic creator's responsibility to specify what sort of advice he wants. You may suggest alternatives once you've answered the original question or advocate methods otherwise unwanted, but there's no call to be snarky. Keep it on topic.

Moved to Recruitment. Use this place to check for interest/recruit for your clan. This is ONLY for clan discussion. If you don't agree with this type of clan, don't post. And report off topic/rulebreaking posts, don't reply to them.

Hey and welcome to Tip.it! We welcome you to post your introductions/farewells on our Introductions & Farewells thread. This helps us keep the forums clean and concise and more reader-friendly. :) Let me know if you have any questions!

Welcome to Tip.it! Nice couple of levels you got there. I absolutely despise FM'ing haha. I got to 92 and just stopped since I couldn't stand it. You've got a really neat n' tidy bank and I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress! What are you studying in college?

Moved to help and advice.

Probably been posted here already but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw4XWpgx5YM

I do agree but why get upset about discussion progression? lol

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If I was perfect I would do anything. If I was perfect, describing my perfection would be like counting grains of sand on the beach. I am not perfect.

Just had to remove a large section of arguing and I will be contacting involved parties privately where required. Please keep it on topic and if you see someone trolling or you think a post doesn't belong on the thread--report it, don't reply to it. You'll save everyone the hassle. Thanks. EDIT: Oh and for the sake of keeping the topic clean please please please PM me if you disagree the action taken here rather posting in-thread. It will minimize needless bumping and help people better seek advice. I'll be on for the next couple of hours so I WILL get back to you, promise.

I don't know why you keep pushing that like it's definitive proof that you are right and I am wrong. There aren't less bots there as opposed to any other furnace out there. And if there are how are you certain it's not because of the furnace's requirements for use and not this misclick issue, which is easily resolved (the Sorceress' Garden is testament to that)? We don't have the data to say otherwise and I think you should leave it at that rather than fighting a useless battle. I've acknowledged the problems with my argument, maybe you should as well.

I have the same amount of experience and play time and I disagree with you. So where does that leave us in terms of strength of argument but a stalemate? Correlation does not imply causation yet neither of us have the information to prove otherwise. So I'm sorry I even brought it up, I should've known better than that. Thank you for showing me that.

And you know there are no bots there...why? Because you don't see people there with names like 'setewsoxrttz'? Because there's so many people using less sophisticated bot programs that there must be all the sorts there are, and none of them are being used to go to the furnace? I dunno man. You've got me that my point isn't as concrete as I hope, but neither is yours. What it comes down to really is whether or not it's worth the hassle. For all that you've got valid points and showed me the flaws in my argument, that remains unchanged: it's not worth the hassle.

At the end of the day, you're right Stewie. I'm getting a little unnecessarily heated over this. And while I still think some of my concerns were valid, some of them weren't. You're right that the people with heavily invested time in the game are their guaranteed income, and have less weight of it because of that. I thought those people were the core, important, because of the fact that if they suddenly were alienated they would really hurt Jagex. Yet it's that new growth that keeps them alive, and I suppose that in Jagex's eyes that's the core. That's my failure to be objective and see it from their PoV rather than the player's. I had misgivings with all of the updates that occurred over the past few months: the ornate katana, the loyalty program, this dwarven army axe, etc. But they handled the Loyalty Program with grace and cleverness and time will tell if they'll do the same with this. If they do, then it hopefully won't go any farther than these low-level items. I really hope that's the case. I'll make a greater effort to be patient and just wait. Can't guarantee that I won't pop back into debates to present my side of it, haha, but maybe with your points showing me the weakness of my argument, I'll make a better job of it next time round. I think the only thing my past posts are good for are drinking games. Every time I say trend or core we can take a shot. With any luck we won't die of alcohol poisoning at the end of it...

So no, it doesn't. I can agree that they should've gone all-or-nothing and not this awkward random NPC just popping around where all other furnaces lack then. Yet at the same time what do they gain by doing that except inconveniencing legitimate players and having virtually no impact on them? Sorry, but that's not worth it. Fair enough. The concept was right in my head (cost not worth the benefits) but I put it down really piss-poor on paper. Kind of ashamed at that. Sorry. :/

Moved to Runescape Suggestions

Its effective at keeping most bots off that furnace. And instead they use another. That is not the purpose of having anti-bot measures. The purpose of anti-bot measures is to outright STOP botting. This doesn't cause them to stop, they just go somewhere else. How exactly is that effective? It's not. If we're going to look at it from your perspective, then the task system is an 'anti bot measure' too! Well PROBLEM SOLVED! No more bots! Oh wait, there are still bots everywhere. Nevermind. Not to mention the fact that if such a misclick happened, it would take very little time for bot owners to find a way around it and go right back to botting. Hardly effective... Sorry, but that's an absolutely stupid reason to keep the NPC wandering and, if anything, spoils the reward from the Task system slightly.

He doesn't have to be removed, who said that? Just put him in one damn spot instead of him wandering about. If that's your idea of 'an effective anti-bot measure' then you're off your rocker. Because if that was truly a deterrent then they would simply use a different furnace. Face it, legitimate players use that furnace because of its close location to a bank and the shortest distance to it. Bots don't care if it's a few seconds less than other furnaces, time is infinite for them because they're artificial. They're not looking for efficiency, they're simply looking to complete a set task. So if you're actually convinced that it's an effective anti bot measure then you need to think again. There's no reason for that NPC to be wandering around like that and I agree wholeheartedly with you TC.

There are no ad hominems here. If anyone's throwing them around, it's you. Your comparisons and derogatory tones imply that you think less of people who are upset about this chain of events. Aka stupid, lesser intelligence, an idiot. To recap your own post: [hide] [/hide] I disagree with your argument because it makes no sense and seems to only stem from the fact that you think everyone's a whiner. You seem to feel that because you lost your interest in the game and quit, you are therefore superior and everyone should react your way when in fact the people upset about this are the people with strong interests in the game. Thus, the false sense of superiority. "Why aren't they just quitting instead of whining, like I did? They should just get over it, they're making stupid decisions." If you don't know the people behind the arguments and you won't judge them, then why make broad characterizations ground in misinterpretations? Surely someone so interested in logic sees how just illogical that is. Verizon, WoW, Xbox are double if not quadruple the amount paid out in RS for the benefits. And while I still think it's a poor comparison, I see the nature of your point though. While I can agree we are being well compensated, that's not the point being argued. If it were simply a matter of compensation, we would be encouraging these updates, not denouncing them! After all, aren't we, the paying members, the ones who would reap the benefits of them? No, that is not the point. And saying that other communities don't complain equally across the board...well, I don't know where the fault lies there. It's either a lack of experience with other MMOs/large game communities or human nature. Ever looked at the Minecraft community, for example? XD As for the Kinect issue, again, it is not present in the element of gameplay (when you play L4D or Dead Space or Bioshock), and thus a poor comparison. Xbox Live, as a service, is not the dashboard. The dashboard is like the webpage you play free to play on, if anything, with the advertisements (or the welcome ribbon on the dashboard while connected to live) seperate from the gameplay. Poor. Comparison. Again I think you've misinterpreted what it is people are really upset about, which is what I tried to clarify in my last post. I respect and agree with you, quitting is a poor point. And that's something I'll own up to--I made a mistake there, I really thought that's what you mean. And I'm kind of glad to be wrong there, because that seems to be the biggest thing thrown back in the faces of people upset with this recent trend. By loyalty though, I mean those who keep paying, who keep playing, and are actually in the thick of the community. Most Tip.it'ers are, and as you've said we're mostly the 80+ skills folk who keep their pockets lined by continuing that. Quoting a post that I'm directing to other people, however, and taking it out of context is not the best way to prove your point. I have repeatedly argued my stance on this in more direct ways that I think qualify for the feedback you're looking for. That, however, was me taking up my grievances with the mindset of fellow community members who fail to realize what we're up in arms about as you have. You say it's a mountain out of a molehill...why? You say I'm not being objective, yet the trend of this type of content has been established. And it's dismissed out of hand because it's low-leveled. And despite the fact that the displeasure with such things are because we don't want to see this spiral out of control as we have in the past, pre-Gerhard era. That is not a failure to be objective. It's happened before. The content was removed as a testament of being different from the RuneScape of the past, but now it's back again in a slicker form that isn't fooling anyone. Even the people upset with those complaining can see it and acknowledge it. So if that 'RuneScape of the Past' is back again what exactly does that tell you about the turn they're taking in the company? And you wonder why people are worried...really? But then we get to the point in your post where those ad hominems you accused me of creep their way back into your soapbox speech. We, as in the people who are playing on this fansite, are the core. The clan users who keep paying members, the high level skillers who keep pushing to bigger milestones, the researchers who labor and show brilliant work. We are the core. You're confusing the displeasure with this trend as if it's thrown on the breaks on all of these core members who are going, "WHOAH WHAT IS THIS [cabbage]? I'M NOT PLAYING ANY MORE." That's simply not true, and honestly it's about as ignorant as you can get. It's players like us who make up the core. It's players like you who have quit and moved on. If you're saying that I, as a part of this core community, have no right to say such things where do you, a person who quit and no longer contributes, get to say anything either? You're brandishing about a moot point as if it's strengthening your argument. It's not. I am voicing my concerns because I care about the game and I don't want to see it crumble, as companies have in the past when they have taken a more extreme version of this track. RuneScape is not at that point. I have freely admitted it, for all that it's been ignored...I simply don't want to see it get that bad. So I give my feedback. And when people are posting here saying that it's wrong, I'll defend my point of view. This board is a place for debating about this game, or haven't you realized that? Good lord, there hasn't been just one incident of things like this. If there was, this issue wouldn't have been debated for 3 months. Yet the same thing is said over and over, "It's just one small update." Well congratulations, yes it's a small update. They add up. And they have the potential to get worse. Denying that is just as silly as saying it definitely will happen. And I'm not claiming the latter, but you sure as hell are shouting the former and blaming me for that. Bit funny, that. So I'd appreciate it if you could construct your next reply with a shred of consideration for what's been said and not just what you want to banter on about to soothe your ego. I'm interested in discussing it but it seems like there's nothing new being brought forth and we're just spinning in circles.

Yes because everyone who is concerned with the game's direction is an idiot as you've implied. Your argument, while eloquent, is dripping with the same false superiority you claim your opposition has and as such, it's extremely hard to take you seriously. The verizon metaphor is a poor apples - to - oranges comparison. There are no comparable services to Runescape that is 10$ a month and browser based, let alone an MMO. Your Xbox comparison is equally poor...do you see "BUY WINDOWS 7!" when you're going through the introduction screen of Left 4 Dead 2? No. As a business they know when to push their product and when not to. This is the pitfall that RuneScape seems to repeatedly fall in. And WoW, again another apples - to - oranges comparison. They pay substantially more a month and get a higher quality of updates...but ironically because the company made poor choices their subscriptions are declining drastically and people are frequently complaining about the direction the company has taken yet continue to pay. Now if I can manage to wade through the majority of the "You're all stupid whiners" in your post and get to the real heart of it, I think you're trying to ask why people who are upset with the way the company is going don't just quit to make a point. Because that's absolutely [developmentally delayed]ed. The company has not reached that point where anyone sees this as a hopeless cause. Jagex, as much as I give them their lumps, do a great job at listening to their customers. People were upset with how the loyalty programme worked, they gave a discount for the first couple of weeks so people could try out more of the expensive auras. End result: decent compromise. People complained about the lack of clan support. End result: clan support. Do I need to go on? I hope not. Saying that someone upset about this turn of events should just quit is insulting to that person's intelligence and honestly, to their loyalty to the company...and I'm starting to suspect that the ones who are upset about this, voicing their concerns, and waiting to see what happens without jumping ship are far more loyal and concerned about the well being of the game we're all here to love and discuss than you are. You don't see people going, "WE PAY WE SAY LOL!" I hardly see anyone here acting irrationally. What I see are some concerned and loyal individuals upset that the game they love is changing in ways that have proved damaging to the integrity of a business, and they don't want that to happen. They have a right to voice their concerns. Jagex has a right to listen or ignore them as they choose. But more than likely, because they are a shrewd bunch of businessmen, they will come up with an acceptable compromise. If you say that a trend hasn't been established, you're being naive. If you're saying the trend doesn't lead to full game infection, you've got a fair point. And that's why we're voicing our concerns--so they know that's not what their core base wants and they don't do it. Because if it does happen, then you will see the people quitting as you've said. The only one being childish here is you.

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