n64jive

So just because there's millions (most of which are unactive accounts) of players, that gives Jagex the right to take MONTHS or even YEARS to finally take action? Where's the staff that has to check this? And why can't Jagex staff members stumble upon the bugs and the loopholes, as they are the ones who are creating the darn things. Are you really trying to say that Jagex is too stupid for not thinking stuff before they release them to the runescape public? Don't compare RuneScape to other MMOs to other ones which not only have MORE players and actually take actions in less than a day. It's find to accept Jagex as it is, but don't complain about things (Merchanting Clans) and then afterwards since there's "a lot of members", that it should take them a long to fix the problems. Also calling Mod Mat K a "hero" and giving Jagex a "pat in the back" is very dumb, since they are the very people who don't think stuff beforehand and when they actually "monitor" things and want to actually TAKE ACTION it takes them months or years. That is the rule quoted from the KB and during sign up you agreed on a legal contract to these rules so saying it's their fault the bugs are there and you should be able to abuse them whenever you wish is wrong and a totally unacceptable agrument. As for no being able to take action, not every staff member works towards the rules and the players and very few staff members know much about how the grand exchange works and they, most likely are working on the fix right now. Until we see what exactly goes on at Jagex you can't say much about them. Who knows maybe they have been banning people and just not saying so? Legally and ethically are two different things. For example, if people truely did lose items over yesterdays bugs, legally Jagex is not responsible. However, I know if I spent years on this game(which I have) and then one day have an 100M+ item removed from me, I would be greatly dishearted. This has happened in the past, and Jagex sticks by there "We do not return items lost for any reason" policy. Just as legally, price manipulators can continue what they are doing as much as they want. But ethically, it's wrong. The world isn't perfect

People would often log 3-4 kill swaps when doing the 26k trick, with the fourth ussually being of less value. This goes along with this data. Now, is it better to kill swap, or is it better to pk, as you might have a better chance of gaining the other person's drop.

The other day I spent 2 hours at agilti course, and then went pking. Killed a guy and he lost 900k worth of stuff and I gained 200k worth of stuff. I got a few more pks and the loot was similar. I log on after the update and it shows I had 9% ep. I then died twice for 800k each and it stayed at 9%. So if I get 100% ep, will I get a pretty good drop? I know ur drops are factored by ur ep, how much u have lost, and the amount u and ur oppenent are risking.

i'd be more willing to bed that Mod MMG pulled that number out of his arse

and then there is tt's like these.. consisted of lvl 13 alter twice puzzle box digging by castle wars light house southern karajama(legends area) so thats 6 clues and that doesn't look like 6 rewards...so that foils yours theory...

it should take a small pause, but hardly...if it worked 3 hours ago it should work now...I doubt Jagex is up at 4 in the morning making updates...

mod tele... :)

my guess would be some sort of mod teleport.

I have a theory that clues gain potential as they sit in your bank(which isn't prolly true, as jagex would cue us in on that..) but it seems every time I let a clue sit in my bank, I get a pretty decent reward when I actually decide to do it, however, if I do a clue right after I done with the trip, then I'm ussually stuck with a pretty crappy reward.

[hide=] [/hide] I'm thick? You're the one treating runescape as a part of real life. My roommates step-dad is a stock broker and I'm a computer engineer. You can't say that Jagex's algorithm, or system if you will, for determining prices is comparable to wallstreet. And like I said you can't govern runescape's economy with the law's of the business world. The only judicial system is Jagex. And please quit putting words in my mouth. I never once said that Jagex encourages item manipulation. I demand that they make an official announcement(meaning FRONT PAGE) on their stance and their propositions. The fact of the matter is that they are between a rock and a hard place. They can either let this continue to happen (Which in my opinion is the lesser of two evils) or they can fix their system. But the only permanent fix is setting the prices, which turns the GE into a big general store with set prices...this is how much it cost, this is how much you can sell it for, otherwise people are going to continually manipulate their system. If you don't think price manipulation took place before the GE, then you need to reread your history. Also, letting Jagex step in everytime they think manipulation happens is a concept known as market socialism, which is similiar to communism(there is a difference, and in fact one inhabits the other, but I don't want to go to deep into that). So if you want to play a game with an economy where the developers control the prices, than fine, but I'll gladly go back to Oblivion. (And don't say "good, cuz we don't want you here", because I'm not the only person who shares this opinion)... PS,Name calling, which is what you have done throughout this thread, only starts flame wars. You need to step back, because believe it not, you don't know everything. And I don't claim to know everything either. But let me tell you something kid, I was playing runescape when you were still wetting your bed. (See how I generalize there..go ahead and make an argument that you're some sort of adult, because it will only prove my point that your generalizations only make an [wagon] out of yourself)... edit: and I did read the [bleep]ing thread...but again PRICE MANIPULATION IS NOT AGAINST JAGEX'S RULES YET!!!! and I stress YET, because I doubt that will last much longer. however my whole point is keep on whining about this kind of stuff, the game is only going to get worse as more restrictions are imposed...

[hide=] Stated in Jagex rules that hints at manipulation being wrong and said earlier in this topic that mod MMG said price manipulation is a problem. Ermmm the item bought out makes more offers for max = price of item goes up. If an item is being bought for max its unlikely someone else in the merchanting clan will recieve the item for max but some legitimate buyer trying to buy it and if said item isn't being merchanted then the buyer of the item to be merchanted will likely get some random persons item for around the price it is then instead of the max price item the seller put in. buying out an item to force its price go up, you are manipulating the cost of said item = you are manipulating that item. lol wut? Nice facts you posted but it doesn't say anything on why it's not against the jagex rules. Read my first point. We shouldn't have to be forced to buy an item for an inflated price that it isn't really worth, it can take days or even weeks for an item to return back to it's original price for example with tooth halves. [/hide] 1. If Jagex feels it's a problem, they will change it. Jagex has already killed off many aspects of this game that made it great in order to battle rwt(I understand their motives)...No one is going to quit because of price manipulation, however if jagex continues to limit trade, this game is going to become more of rpg+chat then an MMORPG. 4. I don't see in Jagex's rules it says you can slay dragons, does this mean dragon slaying is against the rules? Rules genuinely say what you can't do, not what you can. Prove to me where it says items can't be manipulated. Like I said, at this point, they are playing "legitimately". 2+3. Items which don't have much of a demand initially, (uncut dragonstones), are continuously rebought by the clan members at first until they get a trend going. Others are brought in, and this is when the leaders quit buying. They then sell whenever they feel like it. Sure it craps on the little guy, but so does a lot of things in runescape. I attack greens that lower levels are attacking and kill them faster. A nice guy would let them have it, but I need to make the most out of my time(and I don't have much)... To be honest, I don't care what process it goes through, Price manipulation is not against Jagex's rules. People have the idea that Jagex ended RWT because it "hurt the economy"...that was maybe one of their points, but the real case was the fact people were getting in trouble because they were buying RS gold with stolen credit cards and jagex was receiving the blame (Which is [cabbage], which just goes to show some real-life laws are dumb as well)... Follow up 1: Who is this we? Again you're arguing against yourself...Until jagex nerfs/outlaws price manipulating, you have no right to argue that they ruin the way you play the game. 1. They hinder it, they don't ruin it, which as said I can hinder the way many people play without going against the rules, and 2. You could hinder the way they make money...buy a bunch of limps, and sell at min...you'll lose a crap ton of GP, but the prices won't raise...

I've been reading through this thread all day while I was at work, and I have had a lot of time to read through the different arguments, and I am going to keep this post short because this thread is long enough due to all the different tangents that people have gone off on: 1.Don't compare runescape laws to real life laws, because you make a moot point. If you wan't to do that, then you would have to quit playing the game all together because of all the laws you break every day in runescape world(killing people, harvesting raw materials of land that doesn't belong to you...the list goes on)..btw, real life laws only apply to the nation governing them. I'm pretty sure that gleinor(sp) is not located within the United States. Let me say this again, PLEASE STOP! 2. I'm pretty sure that Merch clan's don't make prices rise by buying out an item. Pretty much what happens is the item changes hands between clan members at max price multiple times. Jagex's system is governed by traffic and price in relation to base price(median, mid..etc). If these clans banded together to buy out an item, then more power to them(although this is more difficult then it seems, which I why I don't believe this is the true cause of manipulation). People have been hoarding items since I have played runescape(spring 2002), the only reason that clans are needed now if because of the buying caps Jagex put on them(which the reason for these caps are obvious, the ge makes it much easier to hoard then before, but the great merchanters still did this.) I really wish that Duke, R2, Chewy, etc. would still be around to post how they used to Merchant. Each one a solo merchant, which so many of you support, yet many of them hated at the time because the general consensus was that they inflated prices(which may have been true at first, but in reality they created competition, which causes stable prices). 3.This plays into two, but solo merch's are just a less efficient form of the merch clan. Because of Jagex's caps, it becomes difficult to obtain a large quantity of an item. For instance, 1 billion in Rune essence would take nearly 59 days at the current price.(25k every 4 hours, 113 per ess...do the math:PS if you think this is ridiculous, I tried investing 100m into essence when they were 110 a pop, but I got owned by Duke Freedom and ended up losing money..mainly because he had much, much more invested and was able to make bigger profits)...Merchant clans just cause a faster return on your investment, which is no where against Jagex's rules, regardless if it's price manipulation or not, which leads into 4... 4. PRICE MANIPULATION IS NOT AGAINST JAGEX'S RULES...This is the game of telephone at it's finest. Back in the day, it used to be against Jagex's rules to post on the forums the following "Hey, everyone Santa's are going to rise, buy them now!!"...Jagex made this rule to combat spam on their forums. They gave them the term "price manipulation threads" and outlawed their use. So to all of you who are fine print readers, the key word is "thread". Btw, this point is valid on or before 6/8/09. So much for keeping it short, but here are a few endnotes. 1. If you can't buy an item because it is being manipulated(which isn't that hard to do, you just have to buy for the max at an inflated price, and it takes a little longer, but you should receive it by the end of the day...I've never had trouble), instead of ranting and raging about it, gather the item yourself and sell for the inflated price. Then, do this until the item crashes, and then buy the item at the min prices and enjoy the profit. Or you could always do something else. I'm not telling you how to play, just like you shouldn't tell those who, as nathaninch said, are mearly buying and selling at the GE. Please don't restate your views to me and why it's hurting the RS economy, because one day you will realize it's a game, and manipulating a games economy not as serious as manipulating a real economy. In fact, it's almost like experimenting. I'd say study it, rather than whine about it. Again, I don't have the money to price manipulate or partake, so my views are entirely unbiased. I will not shed a tear if Jagex sets up restriction, and I will not get mad when the restriction cause me to feel...restricted. It's a moot point to say that Runescape was it's best during rsc and the early stages of rs2, and has been declining since the RWT updates, but it is truely how I feel. Hindsight is 20/20

[hide=Fook's] I wonder where these items come from.. (The answer is other players) Could it be that all these consumers should expand their horizon and perhaps think about getting some stuff themselves? (the only arguement is that "everyone should be able to play how they want to, and buy skills to 99 if they feel like it". That is a faulty arguement). Obviously the consumer/gatherer ratio is imbalanced, consumers being massively represented and gatherers outnumbered. So merch clans or "price manipulating" as some choose to call it aren't the biggest problem and Jagex knows this. The BIGGEST problem is that there are 10x (perhaps an exaggeration, perhaps not, but the point still stands) the amount of consumers than there are gatherers, and each of these consumers feel entitled to have the item they are bidding on in the GE. So who to blaim when an item takes considerably longer than usual? Merchants of course. But aren't they in essence playing the game in the way THEY feel is fun? Also please note that anything NOT posted on the front page of Runescape.com or in the rules of Runescape.com is NOT 100% reliable, seeing as Jagex mods have been known to contradict eachother to infinity. Errare humanum est, and they are also just human beings. Not gods, as too many people here seem to see them, and just because someone working for Jagex stated their opinion on merchant clans, doesn't mean anything at all. Also watch out what all you people are pushing for, because knowing Jagex it might just result in them doing something silly in an attempt to please all of the whiners. I'm automatically thinking of something along the lines of having a trade limit on the GE just like we have when trading between characters. How nice does that sound? And also Acenator, the topic of discussion is how "Mod Mat K messed with manipulator clans". In other words we are supposed to come here and praise his godliness for agreeing with the opinions of some people while totally ignoring the opinions of others. At least thats what it seems like, since going against the grain here (which das1330 and myself apparently are doing) doesn't get recieved all too well. Apparently das1330 has disqualified himself of being a tip.it administrator in some manner according to some, merely for stating his own opinion on these boards. Maybe we should take a vote wether or not he should become de-modded............or grow up: I can't decide yet ;) p.s I hate sounding like a prune but i cant help it in this topic tee-hee. [/hide] [hide=My Views] Then you should join a merchant clan... btw, it's not like everyone makes easy money...it is very risky, and it brings back an aspect of the game that was around a lot longer than the GE. This can be argued with botting has been around longer than the GE, so please don't bring up that argument, as they are completely different. Also, I am going to say to hell if Jagex didn't [bleep] with those prices. Someone who dumps early, is going to dump for the max they can get, and definitely wouldn't be dumping for min, which is the only thing that would cause a change in price like that one. The prices don't start to fluctuate until people began to notice, and even then it happens progressively, not suddenly. Btw, before you get the wrong idea, I don't belong to these merchanting clans, only because I don't watch the game enough to be able to take advantage and I don't have the money to invest in them. So my opinion is completely non-biased. Uhm sorry, but if you use a lot of money each month that means you also make a lot of money each month: try a month to not spend ANYTHING yet do the rest of your stuff.... - You should actually have a spare month now... How do you propose I do that...do you want me to skip every slayer task where I use a cannon, prayer potions or other expensive things like barrows repair, familiar pouches and scrolls. The point I'm trying to make is that I should be able to play the way I want. I shouldn't have to conform to the boundries set in place by these people who think they are special enough to be able to ruin the gaming experience for everybody but themselves.... This makes me laugh because of the irony behind the statement. Lets see if I can try to get you to see the picture: First, everyone on this side of the argument, quit acting like merchanting clans are a minority. I don't know the statistics, but it seems like in able to get the prices to fluctuate like they do, they would have to be quite a large group of persons. Second, you're complaining about the fact these people control the way you play the game, and you propose Jagex fix it by controlling the way they play the game. Wait, huh?... Like I stated before, if Jagex's system represents a real market, then eventually enough of these "investors" will take a slice of the pie, which will cause competition, and cause prices to begin to balance. However, if Jagex intervenes, it becomes more socialist than it already is, and the government(Jagex) will have all sorts of limitations on trade, which will ruin the game for many, which is what you're arguing the current system does. Therefore, your being an hypocrite. And yes, Jagex intervening in ways like Mod K did(and he did) will ruin the economy because it will cause people to be lose their confidence in the value of their money, which was the cause of: The Great Depression! So as you can see, you need to just wait for the system to either correct itself, or by Jagex in a way that doesn't ruin free trade. [/hide] I think it's time we just let this go, Fook. After pondering it, who knows the education of those consistently arguing in favor of Jagex intervention. And your thought is exactly what my thought is in terms of Jagex intervention. The same people whining now because they can't buy their items instantly will be whining because they can't buy an item because the item has been bought the max number of times for the day. (I can't see Jagex doing this, as it would allow any group of people to freeze the market, but it is also an easy programmable solution)

Then you should join a merchant clan... btw, it's not like everyone makes easy money...it is very risky, and it brings back an aspect of the game that was around a lot longer than the GE. This can be argued with botting has been around longer than the GE, so please don't bring up that argument, as they are completely different. Also, I am going to say to hell if Jagex didn't [bleep] with those prices. Someone who dumps early, is going to dump for the max they can get, and definitely wouldn't be dumping for min, which is the only thing that would cause a change in price like that one. The prices don't start to fluctuate until people began to notice, and even then it happens progressively, not suddenly. Btw, before you get the wrong idea, I don't belong to these merchanting clans, only because I don't watch the game enough to be able to take advantage and I don't have the money to invest in them. So my opinion is completely non-biased. [/hide] Sure I could go ahead and join a merchanting clan and make a ton of money. I can also betray everything I believe in and become a self centred jerk who cares about nothing but himself and ruin the game for everybody else. Go read my edit, merchant clans don't ruin the game for everyone else...it's no different then people who pk me while i'm training agility, except for the fact that they get no benefit(except possibly satisfaction), and the merchants make money(or lose money). They're just playing the game. Also, merchant clans could benefit you. Let's say you trained to 99 runecraft on natures, but you never sold them. All of the sudden, these clans cause natures prices to raise, let's say 100%. You, and "EVERYONE ELSE" with natures, just profited from the merchant clans, and you also introduced supply into the market. I really think your views would change if you took some college level macro-economics.

Then you should join a merchant clan... btw, it's not like everyone makes easy money...it is very risky, and it brings back an aspect of the game that was around a lot longer than the GE. This can be argued with botting has been around longer than the GE, so please don't bring up that argument, as they are completely different. Also, I am going to say to hell if Jagex didn't [bleep] with those prices. Someone who dumps early, is going to dump for the max they can get, and definitely wouldn't be dumping for min, which is the only thing that would cause a change in price like that one. The prices don't start to fluctuate until people began to notice, and even then it happens progressively, not suddenly. Btw, before you get the wrong idea, I don't belong to these merchanting clans, only because I don't watch the game enough to be able to take advantage and I don't have the money to invest in them. So my opinion is completely non-biased. Uhm sorry, but if you use a lot of money each month that means you also make a lot of money each month: try a month to not spend ANYTHING yet do the rest of your stuff.... - You should actually have a spare month now... How do you propose I do that...do you want me to skip every slayer task where I use a cannon, prayer potions or other expensive things like barrows repair, familiar pouches and scrolls. The point I'm trying to make is that I should be able to play the way I want. I shouldn't have to conform to the boundries set in place by these people who think they are special enough to be able to ruin the gaming experience for everybody but themselves.... This makes me laugh because of the irony behind the statement. Lets see if I can try to get you to see the picture: First, everyone on this side of the argument, quit acting like merchanting clans are a minority. I don't know the statistics, but it seems like in able to get the prices to fluctuate like they do, they would have to be quite a large group of persons. Second, you're complaining about the fact these people control the way you play the game, and you propose Jagex fix it by controlling the way they play the game. Wait, huh?... Like I stated before, if Jagex's system represents a real market, then eventually enough of these "investors" will take a slice of the pie, which will cause competition, and cause prices to begin to balance. However, if Jagex intervenes, it becomes more socialist than it already is, and the government(Jagex) will have all sorts of limitations on trade, which will ruin the game for many, which is what you're arguing the current system does. Therefore, your being an hypocrite. And yes, Jagex intervening in ways like Mod K did(and he did) will ruin the economy because it will cause people to be lose their confidence in the value of their money, which was the cause of: The Great Depression! So as you can see, you need to just wait for the system to either correct itself, or by Jagex in a way that doesn't ruin free trade.

I don't like Merch clans either, but am I the only one that wants them to either fix their system, or just allow it to happen. Maybe it's because I'm a die hard capitalist, and I feel that they have intervened enough(with setting trade limits, etc)... I would enjoy an Amazon/Ebay system much more than their GE system they got going on(one where you search and browse through offers), but that's a whole other subject. Anyway, I feel it's wrong that they try and control the prices manually instead of letting their system do it's work. That been said, they need to do something, because the roller coaster of up and downs is kind of ridiculous. EDIT:and like I said, I don't agree with merch clan's, but the way the GE works is well known by Jagex, and they don't consider it a bug, so quit treating it like it's bug abuse, these people are just taking advantage of the flaws that Jagex refuses to fix. And to the poster who posted about a new update and not being able to train skills because the merchanter's bought out the GE, 2 years ago(and for all the years before that), that was considered marketing strategy. That's simple economics, not abuse. If I had a large sum of cash, and Jagex made pretty clear that a new update would probably require a certain raw material, I stocked up on that material. You're telling me you wouldn't as well? I feel that if enough players start becoming the fat cats of these merchanting clan's, then eventually it will create competitive pricing, and get rid of the monopolies. So quit screaming for Jagex intervention, because I would put money down that their changes would piss you off more than fluctuating prices and frozen markets(which have existed in this game damn near since the start)

...There would be so many issues with this. No one would want to play a game where you use a joystick to navigate a mouse across the screen, and it would fail. Typing on an onscreen keyboard/buying a separate keyboard for the game will make it fail. Jagex has succeeded with runescape because its a game with a lot of content that has player interaction and is free. After thinking a lot about it, I just don't see Jagex making any money in the console market(honestly, the only players would probably be existing players, and if the gameplay is worse, than they won't have those stick around.

It tends to be easier to cheat on a computer through software/hardware mods than a console. I agree with everyone saying that it would be an entirely new game by jagex for consoles. I feel that jagex isn't ready to compete with the xonsole game developers. Surely someone with more $ will be able to do this before jagex

which glitch are you talking about? also, i'm unsure of this, but when I log into tip.it IRC, it detects that I am a SK user...

sorry, I never meant to argue that it's the best. I just thought you should point out that it's not the best and that it's for relaxing, having fun(which I was trying to state the fun factor last until about 50 tickets...) I find gaining potential is more fun because I have so much fun expelling the potential.

Someone posted earlier that SK doesn't offer any in-game advantage, which is what the rules state is required to be considered "illegal"... So tell me, what does swift-kit have that I couldn't pull up in another window? btw, I hate the term "3rd party software" because it has no reference...third party to what? Runescape? Wouldn't that be considered just about anything? Firefox, Paint, Calculator, iTunes..etc? So would this mean that all that stryder would have to do is say that his software is for some other game, such as WoW, and it wouldn't be considered 3rd party.(This is for all of you who argue that browsers etc. aren't specifically for runescape)

[hide=] [/hide] I can just imagine...I'm pking and for some reason the opposite player keeps shouting "n,m.m,.mlkj;lkj.,m".... I think people might be on the right track where the games won't be linked, but more of a "Runescape 360" or "RunEscape"...

I think it should be noted that voice chat would be fine. Sure, there would be a lot of cussing, but 1. It happens on xbl already so kids with an xbox are introduced to it anyway, 2. offensive language could result in a ban from xbl(which is more expensive than a ban from runescape)...however this mainly totes on racism and threats as opposed to cussing, which I wouldn't disagree with.

Which I bet will eventually not be the case as I have recieved them prolly about 5% of my pvp drops(2 out of 40ish I would say)... However, if you don't care about defence, then glory is a much cheaper alternative(same attack boost, 2 less str boost, and 2 less prayer boost, however the defence is boosted 12 more on all types)...I would consider fury and berserker to both be a luxury. If you don't have much money, stick with glory and row/warrior... [hide=Fury vs Glory] Compare Items Amulet of glory (4) Stats Attack Defence Stab 10 Stab 3 Slash 10 Slash 3 Crush 10 Crush 3 Magic 10 Magic 3 Range 10 Range 3 Summoning 3 Other Strength 6 Prayer 3 Ranged Strength 0 --------------------------------------------- Amulet of fury Attack Defence Stab 10 Stab 15 Slash 10 Slash 15 Crush 10 Crush 15 Magic 10 Magic 15 Range 10 Range 15 Summoning 15 Other Strength 8 Prayer 5 Ranged Strength 0 [/hide] [hide=] Warrior ring Berserker ring View item information View item information Stats Attack Defence Stab 0 Stab 0 Slash 4 Slash 4 Crush 0 Crush 0 Magic 0 Magic 0 Range 0 Range 0 Summoning 0 Other Strength 0 Prayer 0 Ranged Strength 0 Attack Defence Stab 0 Stab 0 Slash 0 Slash 0 Crush 0 Crush 4 Magic 0 Magic 0 Range 0 Range 0 Summoning 0 Other Strength 4 Prayer 0 Ranged Strength 0[/hide]

own clients: does nothing to prevent detection log out every 10 hours: better use a random number, or Jagex is going to notice a trend random giberish: have to be pretty advanced to make a conversation seem normal ... Almost all bots these days are scripted..in fact even auto clickers are scripted...you just don't view the script. And coming from someone who knows a lot about testing, if it can be automated, it has trends, and if it has trends, then it's detectable. It just takes a lot of man hours on a large scale such as the player population for runescape. Players who legitly train hunter on red chins usually have trends with the way they set boxes, are you saying they all auto too? and thats a good point. Which is why I also argue that stating that no one has been falsely accused since 2004 is a joke. I will agree that if someone makes a good enough script, then jagex isn't going to want to spend the time trying to break it/detect it. However, these scripts are likely hard to come by(that is available to the public)