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Well, in all seriousness, 5 years ago, abyssal whip was the best weapon in game, and well- it's still the best nondegradeable weapon in game... I wouldn't say weaponry has changed too much in the years just because most of them have been specialty weapons. The last 5 years have been boring in terms of weapons released, before that, however, mystic staves were the best training weapons(not dragon longswords). Also, ranged weapons have changed a ton more than melee.

I did some digging on Moronics efficiency spreadsheets(they are great, by the way, always use them) to find some conclusive information about ranging and... 603 Hand Cannon (Hand Cannon Shot) 294,85 464 Chaotic Crossbow (Broad Bolts) 240,34 506 Chaotic Crossbow (Runite Bolts) 261,98 464 Rune Crossbow (Broad Bolts) 234,68 506 Rune Crossbow (Runite Bolts) 255,81 339 Karils Crossbow 273,35 241 Dragon Darts 276,03 252 Rune Knife 293,33 322 Toktz-xil-ul 266,39 That is with void range(normal for cannon, deflector for others) and eagle eye. Rows show maximum damage, weapon and average DPS against an opponent with 150 defense. 629 Hand Cannon (Hand Cannon Shot) 310,67 484 Chaotic Crossbow (Broad Bolts) 252,43 527 Chaotic Crossbow (Runite Bolts) 274,15 484 Rune Crossbow (Broad Bolts) 247,10 527 Rune Crossbow (Runite Bolts) 268,15 353 Karils Crossbow 287,85 251 Dragon Darts 292,05 263 Rune Knife 310,55 336 Toktz-xil-ul 279,58 This is the same setup as the last only using rigour prayer. I think these calculations effectively show that the hand cannon is easily the best DPS weapon there, being slightly better than even rune knives(which are ridiculously expensive). I am, however, not 100% sure that the hand cannon has the same speed as crossbows, as it seems very slow, however, if anyone has any information about this i'd be very appreciative about it. As for the cost of using the hand cannon, the shots are really cheap, on par with using rune bolts with accumulator, and it doesn't blow up all that much with 99 firemaking, 1 cannon per 2-3 hours being a good estimate. It's also very nice being able to use the SW cape for a decent prayer bonus. Edit: Watched a youtube vid and yeah, on rapid, it's the same speed as CLS- 5 speed, 3 seconds. I will be looking to add something about melee and mage(I hope i can ask moronic some advice about this) DPS figures too.

The current max on ice strykewyrms is 1106 without chaotic staff. This is actually good news for me, as, believe it or not, i bought one. Yes, i know, an impulsive decision, but the information jagex gave about it's abilities at first was utter bs and said nothing about wielding it, so i thought, great- an item that stores deaths, airs and fire runes in one inventory space- extremely useful for alot of stuff. But in actuality, as you need to wield it, you lose 15 magic attack and 3 prayer bonus, while the runes in the box only count for bolt and blast spells(and it only stores air+ chaos/death). I assume the extra damage only applies for blast/bolts spells, am i right?

If you need to find something then please, test it yourself, it's pretty much useless to run around asking others to do everything for you. In any case, with a roll-based assumption of accuracy, CLS can't be better than rapier for waterfiends. My test was done on task with a focus on attack bonus(ardy cape), so realistically, rapier can't also be better than ss/zs with current bonuses(i also used overloads, obviously).

Good guide, was looking for a proper one for ages(not an rsof one) for ages now. Great job.

It's nice to have other people doing some testing on it, however, the results of our seperate tests will likely be quite a bit different as i always use overloads(constant boost is better for tests) and i am quite a bit more experienced at luring. Judging by the ranged xp you got from the trips, you didn't bother with luring at all(the more ranged xp you get the less you use the cannon). These are the results from my last Hand cannon test(~62 minutes, 3 overloads): 777 hand cannon shot(+1 hcannon) 1601 cannonball 13 prayer potions 202 bones 110 301 ranged xp 23 561 hp xp To be honest, i'm starting to like the hand cannon setup more and more- it has a really big range(more than the dragons) and can hit over 600 with rigour. There is no way sighted magic long can be good as karils crossbow isn't(which has more ranged strength and higher speed).

I tested this quite a bit of time ago, and rapier is worse than zs/ss, but not by alot(10% or so).

economicsfgt, reporting in Chemistry major :thumbsup:

You actually hit the nail on the head. I don't know if i specifically mentioned this, but the only reason i've slayed so many frost dragons is the effigy drops and the hate of the runecrafting skill. This is also true for TD killing, obviously, but overall, slayer is also a great and efficient method for all this, thus why i've also done alot of slaying for effigies. I've already gone from 87 to almost 96 runecrafting with no runes crafted. And yes, EEE is a really nice special weapon to have, which i'm likely to mention on my next revamp of the guide. However, you should be getting atleast 170 kills an hour with extremes/piety.

1) People don't have to consider themselves elite, rather, they are considered elite by others. 2) Efficiency isn't about what's right or wrong, rather knowing about what's better or best. 3) Not being efficient doesn't automatically mean you are inefficient, just as not being white doesn't mean you are black. 4) If something suits your gameplay or is best for you then i'm sorry, but you are being efficient. 5) Efficiency means saving time, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. Thinking that efficiency means paying a premium clearly shows that you don't understand efficiency. 6) Most people hate grinding and enjoy achieving things faster rather than slower, more than likely resulting in more fun. 7) Efficiency isn't about statistical information, rather about knowledge, ingenuity and teamwork(with other players). 8) Thank god not everyone thinks so, we'd still be hunting deer with spears. 9) Being elite is nothing but being in a top percentile of players, and making such generalizations is downright outrageous. This is just the superficial view of newschool rs players- everyone lower level than you= noob, anyone higher level than you= nolifer. 10) Again, nobody is saying that there is a right way of doing anything, but there is always a better way of doing things. Efficiency is the best way to play runescape, not the right way, not the only way. 11) And yet again the stupidest point people make on every efficiency thread. Efficiency is FUN, and actually, more often than not, playing efficiently is more fun than not doing so. Replies to bolded statements from top to bottom.

questionnaires. They should really introduce a strike system for obviously making threads in the wrong place. Bandos, obviously.

That'll be with rune crossbow and eagle eye, obviously chaotic crossbow will be somewhat better, although probably not too much better, having rigor, however, would be a significant advantage. Doesn't rigour lose the soulsplit? And deflect damage? If you look a little more up, you will see the tests i did to see which prayer set was best, and with deflect magic+ leech ranged/defense i got less kills than with protect magic and eagle eye, even though the prayer drain is much higher for curses. Part of the reasoning is that leech ranged doesn't drain any ranged attack, so it will stay at 5%, and even the 25% decrease of defense from leech defense doesn't cure that. You'll also have alot of magic defense when ranging resulting in very little damage being deflected. Soul split is not needed for ranged/mage as you won't be taking any damage.

I agree with the rest of your post, but as it happens, I checked the max hit calc and the difference between berserker (i) and a regular berserker ring is around 12-14 damage with max boosts, on task or with void + salve, using rapier. Only 2-4 difference but that's 20-40%. So the difference is 12-14 on a max of around 650 (if the calculator is correct), which is about 2% (not 1.5%, as +10 would indicate). Well, i calculated it for general training purposes, so it can be off somewhat, but in any case, i had quite a bit of a buffer in it assuming the added efficiency is the same for all the combat classes, where as range and magic won't benefit that much from those rings. Edit, checked the max hit calculator and it's consistently at 11-12 for normal training and slayer and at 14 for void+salve, but i guess that the 11-12 is more relevant(power training isn't efficient).

That'll be with rune crossbow and eagle eye, obviously chaotic crossbow will be somewhat better, although probably not too much better, having rigor, however, would be a significant advantage.

First for armor, as food isn't a problem for me and shouldn't be for people with SS, i recommend better offensive gear. If you have a problem with healing, it's obviously more worthwhile to use better armor to not have to heal as much. If anything, you really should atleast try to practice SS flicking on mithril dragons, and if it really is impossible, you'll just have to use better armor and bring some food with you. Another way to avoid healing is to use either range or mage. Mage really isn't recommended as it really cuts into your profit margin, but, as i've been researching recently, range works really well on the dragons, almost well enough to be on par with the best of melee, so that's always an option. On a relevant note for the guide, jagex fixed how the frost dragon magic attacks work for the creature-lock of attacking. This update slightly increases the hourly kills you can get, as you'll no longer be standing around trying to figure out which dragon is attacking you and also decreases the cost, as the cannon won't fire cannonballs at all the dragons attacking you. I was able to get 202 kills in a 62 minute test period with a hand cannon, my best result for range thus far. In the near future i will be trying to get some conclusive results of which setup is best- hand cannon, broad or runite bolts.

Equipment magic damage bonus works just like a strength bonus, so yes, it always stacks with anything.

That is actually a terrible efficiency calculation for MA rings... Firstly, +4 str adds around 10 to your max hit, not 20. Secondly, getting 300 MA rank for only one ring is no doubt inefficient, no matter how you look at it, but you have to take berserker, archer, seer, onyx and even dragonstone rings into account to find a proper use for it. 300 MA rank could be gotten in around 25 hours, gaining no xp, losing some money- lets say around 1m. In that 25 hours, you could either train or make money. If you spend it training(lets not assume slayer as it's much more difficult, but undoubtedly more efficient), you can get around 150k strength, 50k hp xp an hour with no profit or loss, a total of 3,75M strength xp and 1,25M hp in that time- assuming archer/seer/berserker add around 1,6% efficiency, the rings would pay for themselves in 225M str/att/def/range/mage xp, well over 3 times 99 in all those skills. The second way to look at is profit. In that 25 hours doing frost dragons, you would make 100M gp, aswell as gain 1,75M strength xp, 600k hp xp and 1M ranged xp, meaning they will have to provide even more to make up the difference. BUT, the reason these rings are still relevant is that at the top end, equipment bonuses are really hard to come by, so in a 1-against-all(FFA) or 1-on-1 situation, they can more than make up for that ridiculous amount you spend doing MA. They are also the only hybrid rings you can get(for DK tribrid).

Lmao. What you can't force you troll. Hence xtroll. Don't worry we know all your methods are the best because they come from you and you paid good dollar for them. Your replies have about as much grace as a roll of toilet paper- you are not even trying to make arguments, rather resulting to being immature and trolling. And really, if you read this thread(which i don't expect you to have the mental energy to), you would see that people feel as though efficiency is forced upon them, where as it's actually not really the case. If we take our time to prove one method better than the other, you will not be obligated to using the better method. Even when we all say this/that armor is best, you don't have to use the same armor. When i did the calculation about BCP earlier, it was from my personal point of view- someone else with lower income and smaller cashpile could find the things the other way round- but it's your own choice if you want to use your own methods of training, or you go with what other people have proven to be best. Noone has to be efficient, but efficiency is the best way to play this game(more fun, less grind). Also, i think everyone has to understand that H&A threads are all about efficiency- if you don't care about it, you would do it your own way. It'd be extremely unhelpful if i went there and all my replies were about having fun.

They take around 30 minutes to complete- alot of puzzle solving in that time. as for profit, you the minumum reward is around 150k, usual non-goodie reward at 400k, so i'd say the average is around 1-1,5m, definitely not worth doing for efficiency, but if you enjoy them....

Nobody really "forces" anyone to do anything in this game. However, watch the pictures and help & advice threads for awhile and you will constantly see people who endorse "efficiency" hound people for not doing something "x" way because it's inefficient. Its almost every week we have a new thread on this forum saying 1000 reasons why x is better than y. It may be generalizing on elitism, nor am I saying efficiency is "bad", but I don't see people on the opposite end of the spectrum making posts like that towards people who are efficient. Efficiency is just like religion. Everyone thinks they have the best view on it, everyone else who has opposite views is wrong, and anyone who tells you what to think is wrong. In H&A discussions, people are OBVIOUSLY looking for efficiency. That's what the board there is all about. People ask for advice because they want to do things better, otherwise they would keep doing what they find fun. Inefficient players have little to offer for H&A because their methods are always inferior. In most of the ''what is best'' discussions, it's the same case. That's why i said that i'm fine with other people being inefficient, but if the discussion goes to which are the best methods or what weapon(etc) you should choose, don't come up with your horrible methods, because even you know that they aren't the best. Efficiency is nothing like religion, and it's a terrible analogy. People in my country are the least religious in the world, people in some other countries are almost completely religious. Efficiency is something you want to do in order to be successful, or be more successful than others- if you don't care about your levels/goals, efficiency isn't for you. Your view of the world is obviously too much black and white, right or wrong to have a reasoned discussion, the gray area will always be dominating.

I'd still recommend binding arrows as magic is too much trouble anyway, and cosmics/laws can easily be made. I personally have 125 sagit(p++) arrows bound, and last time i did a large 5:5 necromancer they helped out ALOT- i did by far the most damage over others with lower arrows. Range is necessary for one occult boss and helpful for two others(runebound and trio) and you'll be severely compromised with low arrows.

Another few things people mistake about efficiency: Efficiency doesn't mean 100% concentration and crazy methods. Most of the people who consider efficiency and efficient methods take things like that into account- a method which allows half-attention gameplay at 5% less xp is more efficient than a method that requires 100% efficiency. So yeah, if you still think efficiency always means using some crazy methods, you are just stupid. Efficient players are not forcing anyone to also be efficient. If you want to use inefficient methods, sure, do so, however, when any of you tries to say that those methods are the best, i will, ofcource, bring out the flaw in that. If someone asks for advice, i will, ofcource, give them efficient advice, as there is no reason to purposely give them bad advice. If any inefficient person would like to leech from an efficient team, then ofcource, the efficient people wouldn't be happy about it. The way people train skills is their own problem, if you don't want to be efficient, don't ask for advice from other people.

Mr 47 dungeoneering has done all the tests, i presume? Rapier+claws+turm max kills is around 210, runecbow+rune bolts+rigor maxes at around 202 kills an hour(both obviously with a cannon), so not a huge difference.

First, lets get the facts straight, Efficiency and fun don't usually exclude one-another - rather, more often than not, being more efficient means you will be having more fun(combat is a good example- hitting higher and more accurately is undoubtedly more fun than hitting lower and inaccurately). Secondly, efficiency doesn't always mean that you'll be using the fastest method of training, rather the method that saves you the most time, and yes, money is an object, and that's why efficient people usually calculate their methods for efficiency- as it isn't only about the experience. Efficiency is a personal choice of gameplay- one that usually is the best choice, but gets looked over for personal superstitions or beliefs. But on the other hand, if you play the game to be efficient, you are also doing it wrong. Being the most efficient in game isn't always the right choice either as doing so can be very demanding, resulting in you getting tired of it faster. The best results can be had when you don't go after efficiency, but rather combine enjoyment and efficiency for your choice of training. Thus, taking me as an example, i have never used mousekeys as it would lessen the enjoyment i get from the game, i also don't pick up dragon bones and bank them with a yak as it would require alot more attention and lessen the xp, but at the same time, i always use overloads for slayer tasks as they are almost free for me and have a substantial advantage over any other potion. And just to show how efficiency is done- someone on this thread said that he uses torso instead of BCP because torso=free and BCP=22m....however: Torso: 6 hours to get while you get no xp= 6* 4m an hour(TD's, DK's, Frost's or Bandos) = 24M BCP: 22m to buy, ~22m to buy(can make a profit or a small loss)= free. :thumbup:

:wall: The gp per xp only has a meaning when the prices are stable- if you guy ingredients for max and sell potions for min, you'd likely paying 2 times as much as what the number says, so really, you'd first have to check out what those items buy/sell for before making a decision on what to make. If you really can't get the items, you can always sell the herbs for a small loss. Right now, magic potions are 19,8 gp/xp at ge prices.