xpx

Well the point of it would be to have mage defense without negative attack bonuses, and i think the wards are the only items that provide that. When keying, it'd be nice to have some defense against all classes, and while a hide body would provide just that, -10 accuracy is tough. It's also considered ''cool'' to have rare slayer items bound.

Well it largely depends on how you account for the visage drops, and it seems my estimation of 1/10k may actually be very low. In any case, frosts can average more than 4m an hour, and while it may be a bit worse than the best of dks/td's, it's 90% guaranteed money in the bank, which is better for most everyone. Dk's actually aren't that good because there is no charms or effigies aswell as being the the deadliest of the three, not to mention to meet the same profit levels you more or less need to be on task(now that hides/hatchets are low). TD's are somewhat better in many aspects as they offer better charms, but when you take everything into account from servers, intense clicking, chance of death and inconsistent profit, frosts are still somewhat better. Also the experience is much better. Btw, i've maxed at 214 bones an hour over 300 minutes(3 trips) at frost dragons with maximum attention(same attention i would pay at TD's or DK's) so you still have some ways to go.

I don't think my reply went as far as trying to flame him but rather trying to understand his logic. I have to say that i didn't even bother looking at mining/smithing stats, but realistically, you are missing out on ALOT of fun in having even more defense available for you than you do now, and i really can't understand how you can live without having the absolute best defense.... more than likely, you don't need it... In any case, most, if not nearly every high level dungeoneer never opens his equipment stat window in dungeons so i don't see how it's relevant. Anyway, you yourself must understand that you are a very special ''boy'' out there, and suggesting for someone else to dungeoneer inefficiently for some strange reasons(i must admit, there is not one legit reason you have given apart from it being fun'er to a minority of rs player) Isn't particularly helpful. You do have your opinion, but you should atleast add that your method is inefficient and only funner to a very select number of people, not to mention most teams don't want people without a hood.

You posted it as a fact that not rushing is fun. that is utter BS. It might be fun for you to have maximum available defense, but then again, do you have your two bind set at prim legs and kite/helm? If you don't you are not only a very strange guy, but also a hypocrite. By the way, as you are knowingly doing things in the wrong way, i don't know why you'd even try to be a binding consultant.

But you still went after only a part of my point, exactly how is having to get 5 bars better than 3 bars? you could make legs, boots and gaunts with those 5 bars and be much better off than having just legs and plate...Also i don't understand how you can say that the reason is fun. How is spending mindless hours more on making armor and preparing like a donkey fun? It's a very personal opinion on dungeoneering and if anything, rushing is actually more fun, as most people prefer rushing. Not liking rushing is a genuine point, but then again, as it isn't efficient, it isn't recommended.

Maybe if you have a divine. A really strong point of rapier is using it with a defender, which makes it better at most place in the game, however, if you need the defense really bad, divine makes CLS more worthwhile. I can't accurately predict how many people on this thread have a divine, but i'm guessing not many. So only with divine? Although I have to wonder, if someone can get 2 chaotic weapons, that means he can kill frost dragons. At that point, is it really worth debating about boss monsters, since frost dragons average more gp/hr? Oh dear god, do i really have to play the part of the gray old man who says that people play this game for fun.... :ohnoes: But yea, Frost dragons are the overall best moneymaker in the game if you take everything into account and assume maxed stats, BUT, you can't discount for all the other crazy things people like to do for ''fun'', so as great as rapier is for frost dragons, it's usefulness, and the usefulness of two specific chaotic weapons should be determined by the overall efficiency for everything relevant to those weapons, not just one or two things. If i weren't planning to get maul for slayer, i'd likely rather choose to get crossbow/staff as my second chaotic. I thought we were taking the fun factor out of this thread? Because if you count fun, there's no right answer, so there's no point. Not if you define fun as doing things as quickly and efficiently as possible, as this is what some people do... And ofcource, frost dragons is one of the least exiting moneymakers out there, almost as bad as rc....

Unless you can make promethieum for yourself, then binding primal Legs or Shield is reasonable. Who the hell makes armor for themselves in dungeoneering? and then you'd still want plate over legs as 5 bars > 3 bars. There is actually a great reason to bind primal full helm- it's extremely rare, and it makes for a great al pic. For shield, guardians ward is actually a nice bind for a 100+ dg keyer.

You shouldn't at all kill them with stats like that because you will be highly ineffective against them, i'm fairly sure even range would be better with your stats. If you want charms, go bursting/barraging, if it's for slayer, cancel the tasks.

Maybe if you have a divine. A really strong point of rapier is using it with a defender, which makes it better at most place in the game, however, if you need the defense really bad, divine makes CLS more worthwhile. I can't accurately predict how many people on this thread have a divine, but i'm guessing not many. So only with divine? Although I have to wonder, if someone can get 2 chaotic weapons, that means he can kill frost dragons. At that point, is it really worth debating about boss monsters, since frost dragons average more gp/hr? Oh dear god, do i really have to play the part of the gray old man who says that people play this game for fun.... :ohnoes: But yea, Frost dragons are the overall best moneymaker in the game if you take everything into account and assume maxed stats, BUT, you can't discount for all the other crazy things people like to do for ''fun'', so as great as rapier is for frost dragons, it's usefulness, and the usefulness of two specific chaotic weapons should be determined by the overall efficiency for everything relevant to those weapons, not just one or two things. If i weren't planning to get maul for slayer, i'd likely rather choose to get crossbow/staff as my second chaotic.

Maybe if you have a divine. A really strong point of rapier is using it with a defender, which makes it better at most place in the game, however, if you need the defense really bad, divine makes CLS more worthwhile. I can't accurately predict how many people on this thread have a divine, but i'm guessing not many.

chaotic maul, followed by chaotic rapier and chaotic longsowrd.(crush isn't that important when you get to the higher stages of accuracy).

Check out the dungeon spreadsheets. It give a more accurate idea of xp rates for the skill and what floors are best to c1 based on your average floor time for smalls/larges. http://forum.tip.it/topic/254457-grimys-reference-spreadsheets/ I can do all the floors, f1-47 large rushing with a good team is faster XP/h than doing c1s and then doing larges on higher floors only. It's extremely unlikely that you can, but if you want me(or most intelligent people here) to give you the benefit of a doubt you should post how much time a 5:5 large or a c1 solo take for you. For me, more or less trusting that spreadsheet(and i do), the best would be to do 37-44 5:5 large.

Farming level doesn't at all affect the chance of death. Your example is too vague to even consider if it's probable or not, but more than likely, it's just how random things work.

Why would you do full tribrid anyway? Not only is mutlibrid easier, but its far more profit. Because it's actually not easier. On task, i can already do ~2,8 brid but have to lure rex as rex+prime is the worst combo to have on you. If i had the luxury of being able to stay in the middle to kill rex(melee deflect+ss flick) and not screw up spawns, it'd be easy to do full tribrid or have rex as the limiting factor. People usually tank supreme already, being able to tank both supreme and rex would be extremely helpful. I don't know about the profit, but considering i can already get 85 kills an hour without all the new additions, i doubt it's much better, if better at all.

You'd tank rex to be able to do full tribrid, obviously. Normally, when solo tribriding, you'd get hammered by rex when trying to kill him in the middle and prime spawns, but with ~60 more slash def you wouldn't have to waste the time to lure rex and mess up prime spawn(it's very important for prime to attack you just as he spawns). I'm fairly sure that would be the major ability a steel titan gives you as the additional damage wouldn't be great(supreme is the fastest to kill anyway).

Not really. The people that have the stats for Frem Elite already can kill DK's really fast anyway. Plus you really only should use a steel titan for the second half of your trip Cannons there are awesome, 2 or 3 with cannons stand in middle and tribrid :P Or you could just solo tribrid with a cannon....? I don't know why'd you want to share your profit with 2-3 people considering you will not be killing them at a dramatically faster pace. I think the bigger aspect of the steel titan would be the 15% melee def as you can more easily tank rex then, but the damage on rex/prime is nominal.

A yak would still be very helpful to bank drops and hides aswell as being able to do alot longer trips, but this allows you to switch to steel titan/unicorn near the end of the trip for a longer trip/slightly more kills. Nothing revolutionary, but certainly helpful. I'm actually more interested in the increased damage part of it.

Because your bursting, use ahrims. By the way, tome of frost and magical blastbox are both shields so you couldn't possibly use both of them at the same time. With sol+tome of frost, battle robes would only save you 364 gp per cast, 290k an hour for less xp and charms an hour, if you can make anywhere near ~1m an hour you shouldn't even consider using battle robes(assuming 1,8h recharge, last 6 hours). Contrary to popular belief, time is both money and experience(sorry for the cliche, but it's true).

getting +6 shouldn't really be even considered as it's next to impossible, for most skills it would take much less time to actually get the one level than to get +6 from stew, and even then you'd have to be lucky to not lose it in a second. +5, however, isn't common, but common enough to be useful, being about 10% chance. For potion making, +4 or +5 are completely fine as you can log out after every 2 invs of pots and thus keep the boost for any amount of potions.

Frosts with tort and maxed melee/extremes is barely 3m an hour so you wouldn't get anywhere near that. Your best bet is ranging though, but your herblore level is easily your weakest link.

There is actually an overload setup on the tip it guide, y'know? You can actually do a maximum of 6 overloads per trip if you have super prayers, maybe even more if you do the first 12-14 mins(while they are agressive) with a yak.

I think the tip.it official waterfiends guide( which you can find here: http://www.tip.it/runescape/?page=waterfiends.htm) is the only waterfiends guide that features setups for the 'elite'.

You guys seem to be missing the point, as i already said, as an overall weapon(ie. killing every monster in the dungeon once) the 2h is better. no arguing that, it's a fact, and i'll be satisfied with this. BUT, on a 5:5 dungeon, you don't get to choose ONE weapon, you get to choose FIVE weapons. There's a huge difference in having a choice of 5 weapons than only having the choice of one- namely, your weapon DOESN'T have to be overall the best weapon, but be best for the TEAM. Team play is alot different from solo play because you don't necessarily need to be overall good, but can specialize, ie. key-bearers in dungeoneering. Because of this, your choice of weapons is also larger, but, for the most part, other people will have bound either prom 2h's or prim battleaxes, because they are overall good weapons. So taking this knowledge into account, you can easily understand that the rapier is actually a great choice because it specializes particularly on the weak points of a team(low defense, stab and speed) and thus will make the team better more so than with a 2h or battleaxe.

Firstly, for most dungeoneers, it's still a a problem to get round a dungeon without a hood, you will be slowing your team down by not being able to go trough the rooms normally or will be taking much more damage in those rooms than other people. You also have to factor in lag(which most people have) which can be deadly in those situations. If you can do without any armor/proctection, good for you, BUT IT'S IRRELEVANT, as maybe if you'd read the topic, OTHER PEOPLE CAN'T. A hood may be useless to you, a hexhunter bow may be useless to someone with <98 ranged, but it's not the point- hood is still useful to most people and a hexhunter bow is still the best bow in dungeoneering. As for ranged weapons, you just said that sagit short is much better long because accuracy is useless in dungeoneering(mages have no ranged def), but then resorted to saying that a small(relatively) accuracy boost makes you hit with much higher accuracy, so, which is it? Wouldn't grave long be over 50% more accurate than sagit short with ~+80 ranged? Yeah, really poor point. I agree that the celestial cat staff is worth binding if you plan to mage ALOT, but you'd more than likely have to redo your whole bind list to be able to mage efficiently, most likely bind bloods, staff and sb top to have decent accuracy on most monsters, and that'd leave you quite weak to alot of things in a dungeon, AND you'd still have to work harder. You also seem to overvalue offensive force in a dungeon a bit- we all know that a faster dungeon means more xp, but dieing more also lowers your xp rate dramatically, so people are less inclined to risk death for 2 seconds on a mage or 5 seconds on a prim warrior.

1) You'd still kill dagannoths MUCH faster. 2) effigie droprates are VERY different for all monsters, 1:>1500 for dagannoths, 1:~350 for frost dragons, 1: ~90 tormented demons. VERY different(they even said it on the original post).