...And again, the sun is freaking out. It isn't us doing all this.

 

 

 

I read 'something' about the sun 'somewhere' as well, not too long ago:

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6290228.stm

 

 

 

Bye.

Alrighty, Flamecaller, this one's for you and anyone else interested. It's amazing what you can learn with a little research.

 

 

 

General Reading:

 

 

 

[1] [2] [3] [4]

 

EPICA Ice Core data aligns with previous Vostok Ice Core data to reconstruct CO2 concentration and align it with temperature changes over the past 700,000+ years.

 

 

 

Articles:

 

[1]

 

The European Project for Ice Coring in Antarctica (EPICA) recovered two deep ice cores from East Antarctica. One of the cores, located at Dome Concordia (Dome C) (75ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâð06'S, 123ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâð21'E, altitude of 3233 m above sea level, and mean annual accumulation rate of 25.0 kg mÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ2 yearÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ1), is the only ice core covering at least eight glacial cycles (1), four cycles longer than previously available from ice cores. This has allowed us to reconstruct the record of the concentration of atmospheric CO2 much further back in time than was possible before. Here, we report results from the interval between 390 and 650 kyr B.P. (kyr B.P. is thousand years before the present, i.e., before A.D. 1950).

 

The Dome C CO2 record [mean sampling resolution of 731 years; details about the methods and the sampling are given in (16)] is plotted in Fig. 1, together with the D record (Antarctic temperature proxy) of Dome C (18) [both records are shown on the EDC2 time scale (1)], a stack of benthic d18O records from globally distributed sites (19), and a high-resolution benthic 18O record from Ocean Drilling Project (ODP) site 980 (55ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâð29'N, 14ÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâð42'W) (19ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ22). There is an excellent overall correlation between D and benthic 18O, a proxy of global ice volume (19).

 

See figure 1 in detail. Notice the strong correlation of CO2 concentration and 'delta D' - a temperature proxy. Also notice the correlation of CO2 concentration and 'delta O-18 (isotope of oxygen)' - a proxy of ice volume. Also notice the maximum CO2 concentration for this 260,000 year period was found to be around 290ppm.

 

 

 

[2]

The recent completion of drilling at Vostok station in East Antarctica has allowed the extension of the ice record of

 

atmospheric composition and climate to the past four glacialÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâinterglacial cycles. The succession of changes through

 

each climate cycle and termination was similar, and atmospheric and climate properties oscillated between stable

 

bounds.Interglacial periods differed in temporal evolution and duration. Atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide

 

and methane correlate well with Antarctic air-temperature throughout the record. Present-day atmospheric burdens of

 

these two important greenhouse gases seem to have been unprecedented during the past 420,000 years.

See figure 3. Again, notice the correlation of CO2 concentration and temperature. Also notice the maximum CO2 concentration for this 400,000 year period was found to be around 290-300ppm.

 

 

 

[3]

 

Selected climate records are summarized in Figs. 4 and 5, covering the periods from 0 to 350 kyr and from 0 to 100 kyr before the present (B.P.), respectively. The 18O of calcitic foraminifera from deep sea sediments is a proxy indicator for ice volume. The D or 18O of ice from ice cores is a proxy indicator of temperature in the area of the ice core.

 

See figure 4 in detail. Again, notice the strong correlation between temperature and CO2 concentration. Again, notice the maximum CO2 concentration for this 200,000 year period was found to be around 290ppm.

 

Fig. 3. (Upper) CO2 vs. time before present, as inferred by Etheridge et al. (17) from ice core studies.

 

See figure 3 in detail. Notice the rise in CO2 concentration up to around 340ppm prior to the year 2000, uncharted territory for hundreds of thousands of years.

 

 

 

[4]

 

Notice the current atmospheric CO2 concentrations are in excess of 380ppm.

 

 

 

[5]

 

Notice this summation of CO2 concentrations, in ppm, over the past 400,000 years, in line with the data already presented.

 

 

 

Now, notice the huge deviation from the trend of CO2 concentration from around the year 1800 on; the time of the industrial revolution where masses of CO2 were being pumped into the atmosphere. Connect the dots. I conclude, from this little data gathering exercise, that it is ignorant to claim that CO2 concentration increases have nothing to do with modern warming trends and that human activity has nothing to do with these concentration increases. Ergo, we are contributing to global warming.

 

 

 

This is nothing new. The consensus is that human contributed climate change is supported by the evidence. [6][7]

 

 

 

So what of the argument that Mars is experiencing global warming, therefore it must be the sun and thus the sun is making earth heat up too?

 

 

 

[8]

 

On Mars, the warming seems to be down to dust blowing around and uncovering big patches of black basaltic rock that heat up in the day (see 'Mars hots up'). No change in sunshine required.

 

[9]

Results indicate enhanced wind stress in recently darkened areas and decreased wind stress in brightened areas, producing a positive feedback system in which the albedo changes strengthen the winds that generate the changes. The simulations also predict a net annual global warming of surface air temperatures by 0.65 K, enhancing dust lifting by increasing the likelihood of dust devil generation.

 

 

 

Our results suggest that documented albedo changes affect recent climate change and large-scale weather patterns on Mars, and thus albedo variations are a necessary component of future atmospheric and climate studies.

[10]

Shifting dust storms on Mars might be contributing to global warming there that is shrinking the planet's southern polar ice caps, scientists say.

 

 

 

Computer simulations similar to those used to predict weather here on Earth show that the bright, windblown dust and sand particles affects Mars' albedo-the amount of sunlight reflected from the planet's surface.

 

 

 

The research, detailed in the April 5 issue of the journal Nature, suggests these albedo variations play an important role in the climate of Mars. It could also potentially explain how global dust storms are triggered on the red planet.

The researchers think they are on the right track because the computer model predicts a build-up of heat in the atmosphere above Mars' southern hemisphere that is roughly equal to the amount of energy necessary to account for the diminishment of the planet's southern polar ice caps that has been observed in recent years.

 

 

 

Scientists have struggled to explain the shrinkage and have blamed it on everything from fluctuations in the Sun's output to natural variations in the planet's orbit and tilt.

 

 

 

"We haven't really had a really good explanation for this in the past," Geissler said. "We found that this mechanism could contribute or possibly explain the rapid sublimation of the south polar cap."

 

So, according to these sources, albedo variations, which are the determinant of sunlight reflection back into space, are changing due to dust storms which act somewhat analogously to CO2 and the greenhouse effect - trapping solar radiation within the atmosphere. No excess solar output required.

 

 

 

[11]

 

The conventional theory is that climate changes on Mars can be explained primarily by small alterations in the planet's orbit and tilt, not by changes in the sun.

 

 

 

"Wobbles in the orbit of Mars are the main cause of its climate change in the current era," Oxford's Wilson explained. (Related: "Don't Blame Sun for Global Warming, Study Says" [september 13, 2006].)

 

 

 

All planets experience a few wobbles as they make their journey around the sun. Earth's wobbles are known as Milankovitch cycles and occur on time scales of between 20,000 and 100,000 years.

 

 

 

These fluctuations change the tilt of Earth's axis and its distance from the sun and are thought to be responsible for the waxing and waning of ice ages on Earth.

 

Here, another suggestion for the changing climate on Mars is put forth - periodical planetary orbital wobbles and tilts akin to Milankovitch cycles on earth - the orbital and tilt shifts which are suggested control the ice ages.

 

 

 

Now, for the idea that the sun alone causes climate change:

 

[12]

There is considerable evidence for solar influence on the EarthÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s pre-industrial climate and the Sun may well have been a factor in post-industrial climate change in the first half of the last century. Here we show that over the past 20 years, all the trends in the Sun that could have had an influence on the EarthÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s climate have been in the opposite direction to that required to explain the observed rise in global mean temperatures.

[13]

Variations in the SunÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s total energy output (luminosity) are caused by changing dark (sunspot) and bright structures on the solar disk during the 11-year sunspot cycle. The variations measured from spacecraft since 1978 are too small to have contributed appreciably to accelerated global warming over the past 30 years. In this Review, we show that detailed analysis of these small output variations has greatly advanced our understanding of solar luminosity change, and this new understanding indicates that brightening of the Sun is unlikely to have had a significant influence on global warming since the seventeenth century.

[14]

This is consistent with a causal relationship between the two and supports, but by no means proves, the view that the Sun has had an important, possibly even dominant influence on our climate in the past. Other contributors to climate variability are volcanic activity, the internal variability of the Earth's atmosphere and man-made greenhouse gases. After 1980, however, the Earth's temperature exhibits a remarkably steep rise, while the Sun's irradiance displays at the most a weak secular trend. Hence the Sun cannot be the dominant source of this latest temperature increase, with man-made greenhouse gases being the likely dominant alternative.

[15]

The observed temperature rise over the most recent 30 and 100 years is larger than the trend in the solar forcing simulation during the same period, indicating a strong likelihood that, if the model forcing and response is realistic, other factors have contributed to the observed warming. Since the pattern of the recent observed warming agrees better with the greenhouse warming pattern than with the solar variability response, it is likely that one of these factors is the increase of the atmospheric greenhouse gas concentration.

 

 

 

Enjoy.

edit. double post.

Yay facts! I love those things.

You might want to read this. Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says.

You might want to read this. Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says.

 

 

 

Yep, I have that article in my above post. I'm just stabbing in the dark here but I hope you realise this Abdussamatov guy is out in the wilderness in terms of scientific opinion. He's a global warming critic and the article even suggests he's dismissive of the greenhouse effect even though it's known that the earth would be a chilly negative 18 degrees celcius without greenhouse gasses. The article also offers the more mainstream view of the planetary wobbles of Mars affecting it's climate much like they do here on earth for the ice ages. See my previous post with all the sources for more detail.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

Also, if you link from the article you presented to another national geographic one titled "Don't blame the sun for global warming, study says" (on page 2 of your article), you'll find it talks about a scientific study that I linked to from my previous exhaustive post.

You might want to read this. Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says.

 

 

 

...And again, the sun is freaking out. It isn't us doing all this.

 

 

 

I read 'something' about the sun 'somewhere' as well, not too long ago:

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6290228.stm

 

 

 

Bye.

 

 

 

That one is more recent. Even if the sun has partial blame, global warming still exists and will one day kill a large amount of people, no matter how much we "prevent" it.

You might want to read this. Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says.

 

 

 

That's the article I saw.

 

 

 

And global warming isn't going to kill anyone. It's going to cause a mass-exodus of coastal cities....Very, very freakin' slowly. Assuming the data is correct, of course.

The SNL skit about Al Gore and all of his trophies was hilarious. :lol:

You might want to read this. Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says.

 

 

 

That's the article I saw.

 

 

 

And global warming isn't going to kill anyone. It's going to cause a mass-exodus of coastal cities....Very, very freakin' slowly. Assuming the data is correct, of course.

 

 

 

So is this a change in opinion from 'the sun is freaking out'? Did you base that opinion on the national geographic article? The one in which Abdussamatov offered a dissenting opinion (which, in science, is fine :) ) with no scientific studies to back him up?

this disgusts me. what is the world coming to? there are people working to find cures for cancer or end world hunger, and AL GORE of all freaking people gets a nobel peace prize. gf world. :x

I thought this was an interesting article that expanded on what you just said ktmcf121.

 

 

 

Elegant criticism of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee by WSJ

 

 

 

Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

 

 

 

In Olso Friday, the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize was not awarded to the Burmese monks whose defiance against, and brutalization at the hands of, the country's military junta in recent weeks captured the attention of the Free World.

 

 

 

The prize was also not awarded to Morgan Tsvangirai, Arthur Mutambara and other Zimbabwe opposition leaders who were arrested and in some cases beaten by police earlier this year while protesting peacefully against dictator Robert Mugabe.

 

 

 

Or to Father Nguyen Van Ly, a Catholic priest in Vietnam arrested this year and sentenced to eight years in prison for helping the pro-democracy group Block 8406.

 

 

 

Or to Wajeha al-Huwaider and Fawzia al-Uyyouni, co-founders of the League of Demanders of Women's Right to Drive Cars in Saudi Arabia, who are waging a modest struggle with grand ambitions to secure basic rights for women in that Muslim country.

 

 

 

Or to Colombian President ÃÆÃââââ¬Å¡Ã¬lvaro Uribe, who has fought tirelessly to end the violence wrought by left-wing terrorists and drug lords in his country.

 

 

 

Or to Garry Kasparov and the several hundred Russians who were arrested in April, and are continually harassed, for resisting President Vladimir Putin's slide toward authoritarian rule.

 

 

 

Or to the people of Iraq, who bravely work to rebuild and reunite their country amid constant threats to themselves and their families from terrorists who deliberately target civilians.

 

 

 

Or to Presidents Viktor Yushchenko and Mikheil Saakashvili who, despite the efforts of the Kremlin to undermine their young states, stayed true to the spirit of the peaceful "color" revolutions they led in Ukraine and Georgia and showed that democracy can put down deep roots in Russia's backyard.

 

 

 

Or to Britain's Tony Blair, Ireland's Bertie Ahern and the voters of Northern Ireland, who in March were able to set aside decades of hatred to establish joint Catholic-Protestant rule in Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

Or to thousands of Chinese bloggers who run the risk of arrest by trying to bring uncensored information to their countrymen.

 

 

 

Or to scholar and activist Saad Eddin Ibrahim, jailed presidential candidate Ayman Nour and other democracy campaigners in Egypt.

 

 

 

Or, posthumously, to lawmakers Walid Eido, Pierre Gemayel, Antoine Ghanem, Rafik Hariri, George Hawi and Gibran Tueni; journalist Samir Kassir; and other Lebanese citizens who've been assassinated since 2005 for their efforts to free their country from Syrian control.

 

 

 

Or to the Reverend Phillip Buck; Pastor Chun Ki Won and his organization, Durihana; Tim Peters and his Helping Hands Korea; and Liberty in North Korea, who help North Korean refugees escape to safety in free nations.

 

 

 

These men and women put their own lives and livelihoods at risk by working to rid the world of violence and oppression. Let us hope they survive the coming year so that the Nobel Prize Committee might consider them for the 2008 award.

That's the article I saw.

 

 

 

And global warming isn't going to kill anyone. It's going to cause a mass-exodus of coastal cities....Very, very freakin' slowly. Assuming the data is correct, of course.

I'm inclined to say prolonged drought would cause millions to starve all around the globe, and an increase in, say, hurricane intensity would all on it's own be able to add in the odd kill here and there. And that's, if you'll pardon the pun, the tip of the iceberg.

I can't [bleep]ing belive it, our society is becoming more facist and manipulative by the second #-o

That's the article I saw.

 

 

 

And global warming isn't going to kill anyone. It's going to cause a mass-exodus of coastal cities....Very, very freakin' slowly. Assuming the data is correct, of course.

I'm inclined to say prolonged drought would cause millions to starve all around the globe, and an increase in, say, hurricane intensity would all on it's own be able to add in the odd kill here and there. And that's, if you'll pardon the pun, the tip of the iceberg.

 

 

 

One of the theories of the global warming factor is that of the superstorm, which then causes an ice age. There was actually a book on this theory, written by Art Bell and Whitley Streiber called The Coming Global Superstorm (which was the basis for the movie The Day After Tomorrow... of course the theory wasn't one of it being overnight if I recall, but the overnight thing was meant to be dramatic for Hollywood.) It is actually quite the interesting theory. I'm sure you could find the book at a library (I hope), so pick it up. My fiance bought the book, he listens to Art Bell's radio show almost religiously.

 

 

 

I'm just presenting another side to the global warming debate, not putting in any of my own opinions. And yes, I link to Wikipedia a lot, they are quite accurate, at least with certain information.

I should make a movie stating the obvious so I can win a nobel peace prize too!

I thought this was an interesting article that expanded on what you just said ktmcf121.

 

 

 

Elegant criticism of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee by WSJ

 

 

 

Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT

 

 

 

In Olso Friday, the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize was not awarded to the Burmese monks whose defiance against, and brutalization at the hands of, the country's military junta in recent weeks captured the attention of the Free World.

 

 

 

The prize was also not awarded to Morgan Tsvangirai, Arthur Mutambara and other Zimbabwe opposition leaders who were arrested and in some cases beaten by police earlier this year while protesting peacefully against dictator Robert Mugabe.

 

 

 

Or to Father Nguyen Van Ly, a Catholic priest in Vietnam arrested this year and sentenced to eight years in prison for helping the pro-democracy group Block 8406.

 

 

 

Or to Wajeha al-Huwaider and Fawzia al-Uyyouni, co-founders of the League of Demanders of Women's Right to Drive Cars in Saudi Arabia, who are waging a modest struggle with grand ambitions to secure basic rights for women in that Muslim country.

 

 

 

Or to Colombian President ÃÆÃââââ¬Å¡Ã¬lvaro Uribe, who has fought tirelessly to end the violence wrought by left-wing terrorists and drug lords in his country.

 

 

 

Or to Garry Kasparov and the several hundred Russians who were arrested in April, and are continually harassed, for resisting President Vladimir Putin's slide toward authoritarian rule.

 

 

 

Or to the people of Iraq, who bravely work to rebuild and reunite their country amid constant threats to themselves and their families from terrorists who deliberately target civilians.

 

 

 

Or to Presidents Viktor Yushchenko and Mikheil Saakashvili who, despite the efforts of the Kremlin to undermine their young states, stayed true to the spirit of the peaceful "color" revolutions they led in Ukraine and Georgia and showed that democracy can put down deep roots in Russia's backyard.

 

 

 

Or to Britain's Tony Blair, Ireland's Bertie Ahern and the voters of Northern Ireland, who in March were able to set aside decades of hatred to establish joint Catholic-Protestant rule in Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

Or to thousands of Chinese bloggers who run the risk of arrest by trying to bring uncensored information to their countrymen.

 

 

 

Or to scholar and activist Saad Eddin Ibrahim, jailed presidential candidate Ayman Nour and other democracy campaigners in Egypt.

 

 

 

Or, posthumously, to lawmakers Walid Eido, Pierre Gemayel, Antoine Ghanem, Rafik Hariri, George Hawi and Gibran Tueni; journalist Samir Kassir; and other Lebanese citizens who've been assassinated since 2005 for their efforts to free their country from Syrian control.

 

 

 

Or to the Reverend Phillip Buck; Pastor Chun Ki Won and his organization, Durihana; Tim Peters and his Helping Hands Korea; and Liberty in North Korea, who help North Korean refugees escape to safety in free nations.

 

 

 

These men and women put their own lives and livelihoods at risk by working to rid the world of violence and oppression. Let us hope they survive the coming year so that the Nobel Prize Committee might consider them for the 2008 award.

 

The prize was awarded to the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Al Gore.

 

The prize was awarded to the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Al Gore.

 

 

 

the point is, what has al gore done to promote peace? made a movie about a controversial topic and pissed a bunch of people off? wow, what a sacrifice. he'll probably be canonized when he dies. :roll:

 

The prize was awarded to the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Al Gore.

 

 

 

the point is, what has al gore done to promote peace? made a movie about a controversial topic and pissed a bunch of people off? wow, what a sacrifice. he'll probably be canonized when he dies. :roll:

 

Global warming exists. The controversy among the scientific community is only regarding its speed and methods. The Dalai Lama pissed off the chinese government, but he still got a nobel peace prize. Activism will always have opposition, but that should not affect people being rewarded for it.

With all this president talk, is Stephen Colbert seriously going to run for president, or was he speaking in character when he said that?

 

 

 

I'd vote for him or his character over al gore.

 

 

 

He's only going to be on the south carolina ballot, so it's a bit of a joke really, and he can say anything he wants because he can't win presidency.

Global warming exists. The controversy among the scientific community is only regarding its speed and methods.

 

 

 

By method do you mean cause?

Global warming exists. The controversy among the scientific community is only regarding its speed and methods.

 

 

 

By method do you mean cause?

 

It's pretty clear that the causes are human and natural. After all, those are the two factors on earth.

 

The prize was awarded to the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Al Gore.

 

 

 

the point is, what has al gore done to promote peace? made a movie about a controversial topic and pissed a bunch of people off? wow, what a sacrifice. he'll probably be canonized when he dies. :roll:

 

Global warming exists. The controversy among the scientific community is only regarding its speed and methods. The Dalai Lama pissed off the chinese government, but he still got a nobel peace prize. Activism will always have opposition, but that should not affect people being rewarded for it.

 

 

 

i never said that global warming didn't exist, and you didn't answer my question. i also never said that al gore was the ONLY person who didn't deserve an award, it just so happens that it's the topic at hand. plus i just hate al gore. mess with dirt bikes and you are automatically on my [cabbage]-list.

 

The prize was awarded to the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Al Gore.

 

 

 

the point is, what has al gore done to promote peace? made a movie about a controversial topic and pissed a bunch of people off? wow, what a sacrifice. he'll probably be canonized when he dies. :roll:

 

Global warming exists. The controversy among the scientific community is only regarding its speed and methods. The Dalai Lama pissed off the chinese government, but he still got a nobel peace prize. Activism will always have opposition, but that should not affect people being rewarded for it.

 

 

 

i never said that global warming didn't exist, and you didn't answer my question. i also never said that al gore was the ONLY person who didn't deserve an award, it just so happens that it's the topic at hand. plus i just hate al gore. mess with dirt bikes and you are automatically on my [cabbage]-list.

 

Yeah I didn't. Sorry about that. Fighting (or slowing down) global warming promotes peace because it allows future generations to survive.

Global warming exists. The controversy among the scientific community is only regarding its speed and methods.

 

 

 

By method do you mean cause?

 

 

 

It's still an area of research but there's by no means a controvery by the scientific community's standards. I made an exhaustive post on the previous page detailing response to the mars warming phenomenon and the idea that it's just the sun doing the damage and a general overview of ice core data and the recent [bleep]e in CO2 emissions into uncharted territory for hundreds of thousands of years.

 

 

 

I suggest the controversy is largely fabricated on political and industry grounds.