Africans Less Intelligent Than Westerners?

[assassin_696]

Before anyone else passes judgement on James Watson, read this article/interview with him taken from The Sunday Times Magazine that should clear things up:

 

 

 

Feminists are a constant source of trouble for him [Watson]. I remember him turning to me the day the headline "Abort babies with gay genes, says Nobel winner" appreared in a British broadsheet 10 years ago. Eyes wild and voice uncharacteristically strained, he asked: "What should I do about the press?" He refers to the incident again at lunch. "It was a hypothetical thing," he explains "If you could detect it prenatally, could a woman abort a child who was homosexual? I said they should have the right to, because most women want to have grandchildren, period. We can't do it, but it's common sense. Anyways" he says, shaking his head wearily, "it was a bad day when that headline hit. I was just arguing for the freedom of women to try and have the children they want, not what is right or wrong."

 

 

 

And on the issue of black/white intelligence...

 

 

 

When in 2000, he left an audience reeling by suggesting a link between skin colour and sex drive - hypothesisng that dark skinned people have stronger libidos - some journalists suggested he had "opened a transatlantic rift". American scientists accused him of "trading on past successes to promote opinions that have little scientific basis." British academics countered that subjects should not be off limits because they are politically incorrect. Susan Greenfield, director of the Royal Institution said that "nothing should stop you ascertaining the scientific truth; science must be free of concerns about gender and race." He says that he "inherently gloomy" about the prospect of Africa because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas the testing says not really", and I know that this 'hot potato' is going to be difficult to address. His hope is that everyone is equal, but he counters that "people who have to deal with black employees often find this not true." He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because "there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don't promote them when they haven't succeeded at the lower level." He writes that "there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically seperated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so. When asked how long it might take for the key genes in affecting differences in human intelligence to be found, his "back of the envelope" answer is 15 years. However he wonders if even 10 years will pass. In his mission to make children more DNA literate, the geneticist explains that he has opened a DNA learning centre on the borders of Harlem in New York. He is also recruiting minorities at the lab, and, he tells me, has just accepted a black girl, "but" he comments "there's no one to recruit."

[Necromagus]

Even if he claims to have meant well with his comment about considering homosexuality a proper reason to abort your child, the statement is still incredibly stupid. Abortion is an incredibly difficult decision to make. It's something that will permanently affect you in ways you can't even imagine. Having an abortion because you know you can't raise the child with the love and care it needs, either because of your financial situation or because the child is severely handicapped, is one thing. However, when people like him start promoting abortion simply because you don't like the colour of your child's eyes, he's giving conservatives the fodder they need in their rhetoric to break down fifty years of reproductive rights.

 

 

 

He believes that everything about a human individual or population results entirely due to gene expression. Since he is a geneticist, of course this view not only serves his perverted beliefs but his monstrous ego as well. He still thinks in terms of race when the very idea lost all scientific merit decades ago.

[Mercifull]

Isn't this from the same guy who said that it was ok to abort babied if it could be proven they were gay. It's a shame such an intelligent person has such flawed world views.

[Necromagus]

Various ethnic groups score, on average, worse on IQ tests than white people. This has been proven by experiments conducted in a way that would be considered scientifically correct. However, what Watson completely ignores is the influence of socioeconomic status . Simply put, when you compare the results of the rich and the poor, the poor will score worse than the rich. However, on average, the white poor and the black poor show no significant difference in scores, just like the white rich and the white poor.

[assassin_696]

Except he's pointed towards the fact that the specific genes that underpin intelligence might be discovered in 10-15 years time. I appreciate socio-economics status plays a part, but for him speaking as a geneticist it's entirely relevant.

[Necromagus]

Ok, making a statement based on something that you think might be discovered in the future is just incredibly scientifically irresponsible. Just because he's a geneticist doesn't mean that everything he tries to explain about the human race through genetics is true. I'm an archaeologist, yet I can't explain everything about history based on what gets dug up. His academic tunnel vision makes his statements highly suspect to say the least.

[warri0r45]

Various ethnic groups score, on average, worse on IQ tests than white people. This has been proven by experiments conducted in a way that would be considered scientifically correct. However, what Watson completely ignores is the influence of socioeconomic status . Simply put, when you compare the results of the rich and the poor, the poor will score worse than the rich. However, on average, the white poor and the black poor show no significant difference in scores, just like the white rich and the white poor.

 

 

 

I agree with you, Watson's gene centric view is pretty narrow in my opinion. Afterall, genotype + environment = phenotype and you can't get to the phenotype without environmental influence and stimulus.

[Zonorhc]

Various ethnic groups score, on average, worse on IQ tests than white people. This has been proven by experiments conducted in a way that would be considered scientifically correct. However, what Watson completely ignores is the influence of socioeconomic status . Simply put, when you compare the results of the rich and the poor, the poor will score worse than the rich. However, on average, the white poor and the black poor show no significant difference in scores, just like the white rich and the white poor.

 

 

 

IQ tests depend a great deal on the subject's cultural and developmental background, rather than actually measuring intelligence. An IQ test for Westerners potentially puts people of different backgrounds at a disadvantage, as some cultures do not need to or could avoid reasoning in the way a Westerner is expected to.

[fgfuyfyuiuy0]

I must have a really small brain :oops:

[haggisoflife]

I must have a really small brain :oops:

 

 

 

and it does explain why girls keep on going for the dimmer jock types.

 

 

 

 

 

overall I think the technical word for the guy who wrote this article would get me banned from the forum. there are loads of factors like education and upbringing which come into play and this guy is just playing a pseduo science card to cover up the fact that he's a bigot.

[dangeresque]

I personally don't think he is a "prejudice or racist" Someone that acclaimed wouldn't risk his career on something like the statement he made just because he was racist. For example, It is a proven fact that black people are born faster than white people or asians in majority. This is because they are born with more fast twitch muscels, its a proven fact, this is also the cause of the better jumping ability compared to other races. So, in the end, he wasn't being racist, just conducting a scientific study and announcing his results.

[darkmage099]

I personally don't think he is a "prejudice or racist" Someone that acclaimed wouldn't risk his career on something like the statement he made just because he was racist. For example, It is a proven fact that black people are born faster than white people or asians in majority. This is because they are born with more fast twitch muscels, its a proven fact, this is also the cause of the better jumping ability compared to other races. So, in the end, he wasn't being racist, just conducting a scientific study and announcing his results.

 

 

 

Yeah, but the world does not want to hear it.

[Biabf]

 

Lab suspends DNA pioneer Watson

 

 

 

James Watson (AP)

 

 

 

His comments led event organisers to cancel his appearances

 

The Nobel Prize-winning DNA pioneer James Watson has been suspended by his research institution in the US.

 

 

 

Dr Watson has drawn severe criticism over remarks he made in a British newspaper at the weekend.

 

 

 

In the interview, he was quoted as saying Africans were less intelligent than Europeans.

 

 

 

The Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory had already distanced itself from the scientist's comments but its trustee board has now suspended him.

 

 

 

A statement from the Long Island, New York, institution said the action was being taken "pending further deliberation by the board".

 

 

 

Unreserved apology

 

 

 

Dr Watson was due to give a lecture at the Science Museum in London on Friday as part of a book tour. But the museum cancelled the event, saying the scientist had gone beyond the point of acceptable debate.

 

 

 

The Bristol Festival of Ideas has also cancelled an appearance by Dr Watson.

 

 

 

And further critical comment of Dr Watson's views has come from Dr Craig Venter, the scientist/businessman who led the private effort to decode the human genome, and who, by coincidence, is also visiting the UK to promote a book.

 

 

 

"Skin colour as a surrogate for race is a social concept not a scientific one," Dr Venter said. "There is no basis in scientific fact or in the human genetic code for the notion that skin colour will be predictive of intelligence."

 

 

 

 

 

Crick and Watson's DNA model (Science Museum/BBC)

 

Dr Watson helped unravel the structure of DNA

 

 

 

Profile: Dr James Watson

 

In his Sunday Times interview, Dr Watson was quoted as saying he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really".

 

 

 

He was further quoted as saying that his hope was that everyone was equal but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true".

 

 

 

The scientist has since said that the way the words were presented did not reflect properly his position.

 

 

 

"I can certainly understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways they have," he said.

 

 

 

"To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologise unreservedly.

 

 

 

"That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief."

 

 

 

Scientific endeavour

 

 

 

And in comments published in The Independent newspaper on Friday, Dr Watson tries to clarify his position.

 

 

 

"We do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things," he is quoted as saying. "The overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity.

 

 

 

"It may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers."

 

 

 

Dr Watson was a joint winner in 1962 of the Nobel Prize for discovering the structure of DNA, the molecule that lies at the heart of heredity in living organisms.

 

 

 

When, some 40 years later, Dr Venter and colleagues were finally able to read all of the DNA in our cells, they concluded the concept of race could not easily be described by our genetics.

 

 

 

Venter and his team pointed to the fact that people from different racial groups could be more genetically similar than individuals within the same group. Genetic studies show that there is more variability in the gene pool in Africa, than outside.

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7052416.stm

[Catnip1337]

Who seriously didn't already know this? Anyone who makes a song like soulja boy must have a pretty low IQ.

[Necromagus]

White people made the Barbie Girl song :-w

 

 

 

Seriously, if we're going to judge the intelligence of a race by the worst of its musical accomplishments, we'd all be hovering somewhere between the IQ of a rock and the IQ of pickled lettuce.

[Unoalexi]

Who seriously didn't already know this? Anyone who makes a song like soulja boy must have a pretty low IQ.

 

 

 

White people made country music..

[Catnip1337]

To the guys above me, nothing is wrong with rock or country. Rap makes no sense. Here is an example: Yo yo yo I be fly. I is high. I do da soulja boy. Oy oy oy! yeahhhhhhhhhhh cuzzzzzzzz Rock/country actually have meaings in their songs.

[Unoalexi]

To the guys above me, nothing is wrong with rock or country. Rap makes no sense. Here is an example: Yo yo yo I be fly. I is high. I do da soulja boy. Oy oy oy! yeahhhhhhhhhhh cuzzzzzzzz Rock/country actually have meaings in their songs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lick It Up

 

Lick It Up

 

 

 

Yeah, yeah

 

 

 

Lick it up, lick it up, oh, oh, oh, it's only right now

 

Lick it up, lick it up, oh, oh, oh, ooh, yeah

 

Lick it up, lick it up, oh, oh, oh, come on, come on

 

Lick it up, lick it up, oh, oh, oh

 

 

 

Ooh

 

 

 

Ooh yeah, ooh yeah, ooh yeah, ooh yeah, yeah, yeah

 

 

 

Ohh, whoo, lick it up, lick it up, oh, oh, oh, it's only right now

 

Lick it up, lick it up, oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

 

 

 

Really enlightening, I would say.. :roll:

[dangeresque]

I personally don't think he is a "prejudice or racist" Someone that acclaimed wouldn't risk his career on something like the statement he made just because he was racist. For example, It is a proven fact that black people are born faster than white people or asians in majority. This is because they are born with more fast twitch muscels, its a proven fact, this is also the cause of the better jumping ability compared to other races. So, in the end, he wasn't being racist, just conducting a scientific study and announcing his results.

 

 

 

Yeah, but the world does not want to hear it.

 

 

 

I'm sure when he made the statement he didn't care what the world thought about it.

[Rebdragon]

Who seriously didn't already know this? Anyone who makes a song like soulja boy must have a pretty low IQ.

 

 

 

White people made country music..

 

:ohnoes: Country music is auditory Hell :ohnoes: .

[Catnip1337]

Who seriously didn't already know this? Anyone who makes a song like soulja boy must have a pretty low IQ.

 

 

 

White people made country music..

 

:ohnoes: Country music is auditory Hell :ohnoes: .

Country > Crap > rap

[Stragomagus]

Meh, race is a socialogical construct because when you look at it all humans can breed with each other. It would take tens of thousands of years for what that scientist is saying to be true. Of course, that is saying that all of a sudden all of the continents lost all contact with each other.

[warri0r45]

I personally don't think he is a "prejudice or racist" Someone that acclaimed wouldn't risk his career on something like the statement he made just because he was racist. For example, It is a proven fact that black people are born faster than white people or asians in majority. This is because they are born with more fast twitch muscels, its a proven fact, this is also the cause of the better jumping ability compared to other races. So, in the end, he wasn't being racist, just conducting a scientific study and announcing his results.

 

 

 

Yeah, but the world does not want to hear it.

 

 

 

Whether or not people like what they hear is irrelevant in science (assuming for the moment that Watson's analyses are purely scientifically based). The majority of American culture is against a particular scientific theory yet it's stood up to the face of enormous scrutiny time and time again to become one of the strongest theories going around. Many of them don't want to hear about it. Should we just abandon it to appease them?

 

 

 

Apply this back to Watson. What if, hypothetically, his inquiries are not based in personal prejudices? What if some of his hypotheses about the smarts of particular races are verified? Should we supress the science to appease people?

[Necromagus]

I personally don't think he is a "prejudice or racist" Someone that acclaimed wouldn't risk his career on something like the statement he made just because he was racist. For example, It is a proven fact that black people are born faster than white people or asians in majority. This is because they are born with more fast twitch muscels, its a proven fact, this is also the cause of the better jumping ability compared to other races. So, in the end, he wasn't being racist, just conducting a scientific study and announcing his results.

Yeah, but the world does not want to hear it.

I do want to hear it, but like I said, his scientific method was incredibly suspect in ignoring several other factors that could also influence intelligence. Furthermore, scientists aren't saints. Just look at how many of them, from archaeologists to doctors, were willing to jump through Third Reich hoops. Of course, they like to keep up the appearance of the noble quest for enlightenment, but many end up going for fame, money or both. He should stop hiding behind his past achievements and come out with some relevant research. His vision of the human race is extremely suspect, in that he believes everything can be explained through genetics. He completely ignores decades of study in sociology and psychology just to hang onto the limelight.

[ctp080188]

Who seriously didn't already know this? Anyone who makes a song like soulja boy must have a pretty low IQ.

 

 

 

White people made country music..

 

:ohnoes: Country music is auditory Hell :ohnoes: .

Country > Crap > rap

 

 

 

Rap artist do not define every black person there is, and besides, music is nothing to do with this. So shut up.