Wrong AGAIN, Jagex... Calculus 101 revisited?

[Ts_Stormrage]

Hurray, I like the way they are changing the updates that we all hated...

 

 

 

Single combat PvP, supposedly similar to the wild, is coming, and they are making the GEX more dynamic...

 

 

 

But, ok, you worked your beehind off to complete all the quests, and still; the maximum you can give a friend is a FIXED number (30k)...

 

 

 

Allow me to explain (again):

 

 

 

I get a nice drop from a clue scroll worth around 2 million, but lo and behold, I have one already and my friend does not... Lets asume for a second that the percentage of the GEX you can make profits on per trade stays at the 5% it is now...

 

 

 

2m minus 30k is 1.970.000

 

2m minus 5% is 1.900.000

 

 

 

My friend is better off buying it from the GEX then he is getting it from me, does that not sound wrong to you?... The switch between buying from me and buying from the GEX being more profitable happens at 600k, as 5% of 600k is 30k...

 

 

 

Tell me Jagex, how many people who played so long that they completed ALL quests, have no friends at all? How many quest-capers are dealing still with low level items with a worth of less then 600k per trade (just notice the total skill requirement of all quests)?

 

 

 

The answer to both questions is: very very little... Most people who stuck with the game long enough to complete ALL quest also made a few geepee on the side and have levelled their skills sufficiently that they deal in whips and barrow-levelled items, or skilling items in large ammounts (meaning way more then 600k worth a trade)...

 

 

 

You better plan on a major crash of the economy, where all prices fall back to their alch value, otherwise your update still kills the 'free' trading system... And that is even without considering that the 30k limit is only allowed once per 15 minutes, and trading at the GEX can potentially be done instantaneous...

 

 

 

I propose that you also make it a percentage, with a bottom limit...

 

 

 

30k when all quests completed, 3k when none, good enough, but...

 

 

 

People who have been friends for a week should be able to have left and right half of the trade-window differ by as much as 5% (similar to the GEX) but with a minimum difference depending on the questpoints... And since this can hardly be added up to something, allow only 1 trade every 15 minutes, no matter what (bye bye beggars)...

 

 

 

1 week: 5%

 

2 weeks: 10% (meaning you can buy an item worth 2 m for 1.8m from a friend, but remember you can trade only once per 15minutes)

 

1 month: 25% (2m vs 1.5m, 20m vs 15m, and 32k vs 2k cuz of the 30k minimum depending on qp ofc)

 

6 months: 50%

 

1 year: 100%

 

 

 

It cant be too hard to implement as almost the exact same things are done at the GEX...

 

 

 

I know this is partly a suggestion, but it is also to give an example of how it SHOULD be done rather then how Jagex think they can control it...

[123Yourgone]

What the hell do quests have to do with anything i had 173m total xp and had 120 qp.

[Solidus_77]

Sure a percentage is ideal, but be thankful you're getting the ability to trade more than 3k in the first place.

 

 

 

Also, using quests was a good idea. It will give people more reasons to do quests.

[Punc]

What the hell do quests have to do with anything i had 173m total xp and had 120 qp.

 

 

 

Jagex is making quest points be a factor in how much you can stake / unbalance trade.

[Ts_Stormrage]

What the hell do quests have to do with anything i had 173m total xp and had 120 qp.

 

 

 

Yeah they should add thigns like achievement diary and stuff like that... someone explained a while back with a number of examples that could possibly increase your trade limit...

 

 

 

But can we stick on topic please and discuss the uses of a percentage based value rather then a fixed ammount?

[Artificial_Doom_Flavor]

(Total XP/100,000 + (Total Level + QP)/100) * 12,000 = Hourly limit

[DRUMINATOR17]

<>

 

 

 

Therefore making it presently hold the place of an unintelligent one?

 

 

 

:lol:

[Solidus_77]

Actually there's a good reason they don't go for percentage based. I can't believe I didn't think of this.

 

 

 

For expensive items. Frankly you would have no reason not to buy these at GE since the price would be better. The GE obviously will become a hub for buying stuff, even more than it already is. Also, this can easily be abused. All you need is for the customer to have an expensive item so you can make an unbalanced trade. Being able to trade 5% of 20 mill is 1 mill. So transferring 1 mill every 15 minutes? that's not so bad. Soon they will have bots transferring 5% of value every 20 minutes. And since the initial sum would increase each time, this wouldn't get in their way so much.

 

 

 

For cheap items. These are the items that I would want to trade with friends (i.e. give an anti-poison, shark, sara brew). They are actually the reason why the 3k trade margin even exists. Making the trades 5% would make it impossible to give antipoisons to a friend for free (because 5% of 0 is 0). So basically your suggestion makes it harder for legitimate players and easier for RWTers.

 

 

 

Another reason why it's flat amount instead of percentage: dropped items. When items are dropped, it simply has to be a flat amount.

 

 

 

What the hell do quests have to do with anything i had 173m total xp and had 120 qp.

 

 

 

Quests require effort that can't be macroed (like exp) so it's ideal for a limit.

[jessy87]

<>

 

 

 

Therefore making it presently hold the place of an unintelligent one?

 

 

 

:lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

seems like a "first post" post. but, not... anyway this thread was a good read, but something about it i just did not like, i guess it does not appeal to me maybe ill have to face the reality of it in january.

 

 

 

personally, i do not lend out items. two people on my friends list get that ability. and i know the very well in real life. i do give them things occasionally, but its rare. and i rarely ask them for things.

[Artificial_Doom_Flavor]

Tch, delete my post, will you? Take THIS!

 

 

 

((Total XP)/1m + (QP + (Total Level - 32) + (Combat Level - 3))/100 + (Trades Completed (Value > 9,000 gp) + Duels Completed + Players Killed)/150) * 3,000

 

 

 

Which for OmniIcyshelf means (21.3 + 11.9 + ~5.4) * 3,000 = 115.8k/15 min

 

 

 

Which for WcGoldFarmer (Let's say 75 wc) means (1.2 + 1.5) * 3,000 = 8.1k/15 min

 

 

 

And for cases where this formula would make it under 3,000, it would simply BE 3000.

 

 

 

Problem solved

[MrBowser]

Add something with total level, and Achivement diaries. That will make it better. Say, 3mil total?

[Dragonlordjl]

30k is chump change. 100k or hell, even 300k, would be far more fair and would still not allow RWTs to profit. No one using a disposable account will spend the MONTHS it takes to get the stat requirements AND go through the process of completing all quests just to be able to trade freely. They will just move on to a different game, which is Jagex wants. That's why I think the cap needs to be higher for those with max or close to max Quest Points.

 

 

 

Basically, it all boils down to the fact that unless they make it where you can make trades that are unbalanced to the point of over 1m either way, it is not profitable for RWTs to invest months of their employees' (the farmers) time in not only leveling throw-away accounts so they can start all the quests but also DOING the quests, which is fairly daunting for the majority of foreign farmers, considering all the quest guides are in English. In short, even if they raise the cap to 300k per trade/1.2m per hour at max quest points, there is not much incentive for RWTs to bother with this game. It's more worth their time to use other games for their business.

[Solidus_77]

30k is chump change. 100k or hell, even 300k, would be far more fair and would still not allow RWTs to profit. No one using a disposable account will spend the MONTHS it takes to get the stat requirements AND go through the process of completing all quests just to be able to trade freely. They will just move on to a different game, which is Jagex wants. That's why I think the cap needs to be higher for those with max or close to max Quest Points.

 

 

 

Basically, it all boils down to the fact that unless they make it where you can make trades that are unbalanced to the point of over 1m either way, it is not profitable for RWTs to invest months of their employees' (the farmers) time in not only leveling throw-away accounts so they can start all the quests but also DOING the quests, which is fairly daunting for the majority of foreign farmers, considering all the quest guides are in English. In short, even if they raise the cap to 300k per trade/1.2m per hour at max quest points, there is not much incentive for RWTs to bother with this game. It's more worth their time to use other games for their business.

 

 

 

Now tell my why do you desperately need to pay an extra 300k for an item? If it's an expensive item you're better off just using the GE like everyone else. Also 1 mill per hour is actually enough of an incentive for some buyers btw.

[alcoolj]

Tch, delete my post, will you? Take THIS!

 

 

 

((Total XP)/1m + (QP + Total Level + Combat Level)/50 + (Trades Completed (Value > 9,000 gp) + Duels Completed + Players Killed)/150 + 1) * 3,000

 

 

 

Which for OmniIcyshelf means (21.3 + 22.5 + ~5.4 + 1) * 3,000 = 150.6k/15 min

 

 

 

Problem solved

 

 

 

Problem not solved. This would allow a bot with 20m wcing xp to xfer all his chopped goods each time he fills up a load (40k per 15mins).

 

 

 

This equation favours xp and total levels too highly when clearly Jagex want QP to be the prime factor on how much you can xfer. A rune scimmy every 15 mins is not to be sniffed at, but what needs to happen is the rather a set gp limit, make it so the trade barrier is a % instead. You can buy from GE less 5% of market price so why not extend these limits to be +/- 10-15% OR 30k (whichever is greatest)

[Artificial_Doom_Flavor]

Tch, delete my post, will you? Take THIS!

 

 

 

((Total XP)/1m + (QP + Total Level + Combat Level)/50 + (Trades Completed (Value > 9,000 gp) + Duels Completed + Players Killed)/150 + 1) * 3,000

 

 

 

Which for OmniIcyshelf means (21.3 + 22.5 + ~5.4 + 1) * 3,000 = 150.6k/15 min

 

 

 

Problem solved

 

 

 

Problem not solved. This would allow a bot with 20m wcing xp to xfer all his chopped goods each time he fills up a load (40k per 15mins).

 

 

 

This equation favours xp and total levels too highly when clearly Jagex want QP to be the prime factor on how much you can xfer. A rune scimmy every 15 mins is not to be sniffed at, but what needs to happen is the rather a set gp limit, make it so the trade barrier is a % instead. You can buy from GE less 5% of market price so why not extend these limits to be +/- 10-15% OR 30k (whichever is greatest)

 

 

 

The problem with me slapping down formulas is that I like to pick at them, as is my wont. I'm STILL picking at it. I'm beginning to think Total XP should be divided by 2m or even 3m instead.

 

 

 

Also, a goldfarmer with 20m xp is simply not realistic. That's well over 99 wc.

[xn00bxfrei]

You might think you're very clever, but think again.

 

 

 

Allowing trades within a 5% range would allow for the following to happen:

 

 

 

Player A trades Player B a blue partyhat at lowest price.

 

Player B trades Player A the same hat back at the highest price. (15 minutes or 1 hour later makes no difference).

 

 

 

Immediately you allow RWT'ers to transfer millions of coins within just two trades. The reason why they don't allow % based trades should be pretty clear.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Actually there's a good reason they don't go for percentage based. I can't believe I didn't think of this.

 

 

 

For expensive items. Frankly you would have no reason not to buy these at GE since the price would be better. The GE obviously will become a hub for buying stuff, even more than it already is. Also, this can easily be abused. All you need is for the customer to have an expensive item so you can make an unbalanced trade. Being able to trade 5% of 20 mill is 1 mill. So transferring 1 mill every 15 minutes? that's not so bad. Soon they will have bots transferring 5% of value every 20 minutes. And since the initial sum would increase each time, this wouldn't get in their way so much.

 

 

 

For cheap items. These are the items that I would want to trade with friends (i.e. give an anti-poison, shark, sara brew). They are actually the reason why the 3k trade margin even exists. Making the trades 5% would make it impossible to give antipoisons to a friend for free (because 5% of 0 is 0). So basically your suggestion makes it harder for legitimate players and easier for RWTers.

 

 

 

Another reason why it's flat amount instead of percentage: dropped items. When items are dropped, it simply has to be a flat amount.

 

 

 

What the hell do quests have to do with anything i had 173m total xp and had 120 qp.

 

 

 

Quests require effort that can't be macroed (like exp) so it's ideal for a limit.

 

 

 

 

 

5% of 0 = 0, you forget that I said the QP dependant MINIMUM!

[Ts_Stormrage]

You might think you're very clever, but think again.

 

 

 

Allowing trades within a 5% range would allow for the following to happen:

 

 

 

Player A trades Player B a blue partyhat at lowest price.

 

Player B trades Player A the same hat back at the highest price. (15 minutes or 1 hour later makes no difference).

 

 

 

Immediately you allow RWT'ers to transfer millions of coins within just two trades. The reason why they don't allow % based trades should be pretty clear.

 

 

 

And how long does it take for 1 single bot to get the massive ammounts of cash for that very phat...?

[Soma2035]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a Calculus 101? Calculus is like Math 123 or something... there's a MATH 101.

 

 

 

I don't know if I agree with the percentage. The point is to stop people who know each other from giving each other good deals, or else they could just use that to transfer money quickly.

 

 

 

100k per 15 minutes is reasonable though. That amounts to 400k an hour, if both people have put countless hours into quests and skills.

[xn00bxfrei]

And how long does it take for 1 single bot to get the massive ammounts of cash for that very phat...?

 

 

 

I believe MANY of the people who sold items for real money were/are actually dedicated players that do have a decent character. Merchants/Former Stakers/Long Time players all fall into a category that might RWT.

 

 

 

It basically means that you are replacing your standard lvl 3 bot by actual people that stay on the same character for long times, but it doesn't eliminate all RWT as jagex tries to accomplish.

[Vansing]

Well at least they are starting to sort it out. Don't flame Jagex for doing this, they didnt want to put limits on trades they HAD to otherwise the game would continue to be overrun by bots :evil:

[BBC3]

You might think you're very clever, but think again.

 

 

 

Allowing trades within a 5% range would allow for the following to happen:

 

 

 

Player A trades Player B a blue partyhat at lowest price.

 

Player B trades Player A the same hat back at the highest price. (15 minutes or 1 hour later makes no difference).

 

 

 

Immediately you allow RWT'ers to transfer millions of coins within just two trades. The reason why they don't allow % based trades should be pretty clear.

 

 

 

And how long does it take for 1 single bot to get the massive ammounts of cash for that very phat...?

 

 

 

your not very smart, supposedly they can make 20mil in 2 hours from what some guy is telling me, but from farming alone they make tons.

 

 

 

and single bots dont trade by themselves, they usually give to the main account and can have 100s of them trade to the main, which means if 100 bots get 1mil in 2 hours then the main gets 100mil lol.

 

 

 

of course they have more bots than that though and play 24/7

[Solidus_77]

Oh so you have a bottom limit but basically you're just asking them to make it easier for RWTers to transfer wealth.

 

 

 

but the question is WHY do you feel the need to have unballanced trades? The exceptional cases are all being taken care of, so why is it? The prices at the GE going to give you the same deal anyways (and will give it to you faster). So if you really need an item that badly go to the GE.

 

 

 

Allowing people to trade amongst themselves for + or - 5% has no gain since the GE already does that and does it faster. The only people who gain are RWTers and merchants.

 

 

 

You better plan on a major crash of the economy, where all prices fall back to their alch value, otherwise your update still kills the 'free' trading system... And that is even without considering that the 30k limit is only allowed once per 15 minutes, and trading at the GEX can potentially be done instantaneous...

 

 

 

Are you joking? if the value of an item falls, we won't even notice it's effect. If a crash was ever to occur, it's effects would be delayed by GE.

 

 

 

Why would an item fall to it's alch value if it can be sold at GE perfectly well?

[Will H]

Jagex is not wrong, they are doing it right. The implementation of QPs (And possibly Achievement Diaries) is a very good idea. Quests had nothing to do with trading, but that's the point. A bot/farmer/RWTer would not bother with something as pointless and time consuming as quests if all they are going to do is trade.

 

 

 

I've said this too many times; don't flame what we don't entirely know about. Jagex is not perfect, the recent updates are living proof of that, but that does not mean that another update in the same field will be of the same quality.

 

 

 

And, as explained by previous posters, a % restriction is ineffective for standard trade (Because RWTers can control who buys and sells), but it is fine in the GE because you can't completely control where the item/money is heading.

[The Observer]

To be honest, the cap should be raised to 200k every 15 minutes for trades and the duel arena. It would take forever as Real World Item Trading deals in millions and not ks.. :wink: