What skill could YOU live without?

[PuppyKing]

Summoning. :thumbup:

[Killy_the_Kid]

It's easy to say fm is the most useless, but after that it'd have to be rc. 120 xp per trip for body runes that no one wants? no thank you.

[nightzero]

i take back about what i said about firemaking...Woodcutting would be rendered pretty much useless if there wasnt firemaking, also you wouldnt be able to cook without a fire so that would destroy fishing too...

 

 

 

amazing how much damage removing one skill can do...

 

 

 

You mean you've never used a range? You do realize that most logs(yew/magic) go to fletching and not firemaking right..it wouldnt ruin woodcutting or fishing.

[hatebringer]

Definitely Fire making. I really find it to be a pointless skill (No offense firemakers :oops: ) But it really doesn't have any true rewards for getting it high other than the shade burning, and the higher level lanterns, which all max out at 80 (for the best shade burned).

[berishus]

Might have to say Fishing, since it's (although fast-ish), some pure Cooking items are better than most fish (Manta Ray = painfully hard to get, while Tuna potatoes are easy-ish to make, and, well, they're potatoes...)

 

I also predict that someone in the next Ten (10) posts will say Farming.

 

 

 

Can you please tell me how you will be able to make TUNA potatoes without being able to fish?

 

 

 

and most pointless skill....... fm by far

[H2PM]

Firemaking.

 

But if they change the graphics and have a 'Burn all' or 'Burn X' option then i will love it. :

[Lt_Wolfe]

I disagree with everyone saying summoning is useless. Really, that has almost completely changed the way people play.

 

 

 

The macaw brings in more high level herbs than there was before summoning which equals cheaper Herbalore training.

 

 

 

The bunyip and unicorn decreases the need for food dramatically. (From 90-98 defense i used only 100 monkfish, even with a fighter torso on) which equals to cheaper food.

 

 

 

People using familiars at monsters which equal to faster kills and exp.

 

 

 

I'm sure there's atleast a few people using a Ravenous Locust or Forge Regent at bounter hunter.

 

 

 

it's made items that were useless now 3m+.(Zammy Spear) good for Solo GWDers.

 

 

 

Probably the biggest one is the Spirit Terrorbird and beast of burdens. A LOT more inventory space and unlimited run energy? Changed Prayer,Runcrafting,Mining,Woodcutting,Fishing, and even con if you make your own planks. Not to mention that it helps Solo trips at gwd more than anything.

 

 

 

Summoning touches more skills than any other skill in the game. Anyone saying Summoning is useless either doesn't have the money to train it, or hasn't seen what the skill can do.

 

So far all you have listed is ways that Summoning makes the game easier, not better. Everything on your list was done before, it just took longer. So really, Summoning isn't a great skill, it's just a skill that speeds things up, which doesn't necessarily make it a great skill that one can't live without. I don't think you understand the phrase "can't live without." It means that it has to be something that cannot be done with any other method, like lighting pyre logs, or fletching magic longbows, or perhaps even building yourself a house. Summoning is useless in the fact that it doesn't let us do anything we couldn't have done before... it just lets us do it quicker and easier. Construction at least lets us build a home in which we can battle friends in a multitude of ways never seen before. I doubt anybody has seen the pummeling game before, American Gladiators' style. Or even allowing us to store items beyond our bank's normal capacity. Heck, Construction even gave us new ways to spend time with our friends like the dungeon, or just sitting down to the dining table to have a meal made by the cook.

 

 

 

Even if it isn't Construction, skills like RuneCraft, which was released due to the horrible effort to get to 99 Magic, has new abilities. The skill itself created a major industry in essence running. It created the viability of alching items for profit. And that was just what it offered at release. Now, years later, there's the Abyss which successfully acts as a transport system to anywhere in the world, just about. You can go from Edgeville to the Digsite in a matter of seconds, or even to Shilo Village. With pure essence, it created a seperate sector for lower level members: the ability to mine these essence, and make millions of gp with no need to be a level 100 or greater. Even something like Firemaking is more useful than Summoning.

 

 

 

With Firemaking, you have the ability to explore new areas unaccessible without a light. It makes fishing and cooking a viable f2p staple of life. Without firemaking, people would be constricted to certain areas, with certain requirements. Now, people can feel free to roam about the world, knowing they can do whatever it is that they need to do, because they have the security of a light, or the mobility of a fire. Fishing to the West of Port Sarim isn't a joking matter, simply because of the ability to light a fire right next to you, to allow you to cook on the spot. If that weren't possible, there would be absolutely no reason to fish there, other than solidarity.

 

 

 

Any skill is more viable, and more useful, than Summoning. It gives us cool pets that give us cool bonuses, but NONE of them offer us anything we couldn't do before. And I know someone will say "but now a level 80 can kill a level 100 monster, where he/she might not have been able to before." But guess what? That is remedied with this quick solution: Prayer Potions. If a person is able to kill a monster with a minion (assuming that this person has level 43 Prayer), then that person is more than capable of killing that monster. "But that would require Prayer that a person might not have," you say? Then isn't leveling Prayer just as simple as leveling Summoning to a level suitable to summon a significant attack minion? Anything lower than Bronze Minotaur, I'll even say, isn't going to be enough to help a person overcome that difficulty of killing a monster that is a much higher level than him/her.

 

 

 

The same goes for Slayer, really. I'd be fine with Slayer if the unique drops weren't able to be traded. An Abyssal Whip, Dragon Boots, or even the Granite Maul would be great rewards for a person of that Slayer level. But it's sad when a person with level 1 Slayer can wield something that requires level 85 Slayer to get. I believe this is the point that most people hate about Slayer: the "rewards" aren't rewards, so much as methods to get money.

 

 

 

The fact is, a lot of the newly released skills are useless. Summoning, Slayer, and especially Hunter. Ah Hunter, the skill that everybody levels up for the sake of leveling it up. So you can get Reds that make you gain faster Ranged levels. Again, that's not a unique ability, that's just something that speeds it up. The ONLY unique abilities of this skill are the clothes: Spotted/Spottier Capes, and the Thieving gloves. But lets face it, those could have been added as rewards for quests, minigames, other skills, or just purchasable from a clothing store. The only use that Hunter has right now, in any way, is to help with Ranged, weight, and Summoning (with the Ruby Harvest butterflies). We've taken care of how Summoning is useless, so that gets rid of the butterflies. Ranged can be trained without Reds, so there they go. The items that lower your weight could have been given out with the other methods stated above. To me, it just seems like Hunting is just a filler that Jagex made for the desire to release another skill to let people level. There was no thought behind it, and no follow-through to make it successful.

 

 

 

If this post wasn't long enough already, I'll just add one more paragraph to it. People keep saying that Firemaking is pointless, and that it offers no rewards. I fear that people are only clicking on the skill and scrolling through the pages to see what rewards are offered. Little does anybody realize that you need Firemaking to do things such as certain minigames, like the Tears of Guthix. Who doesn't want free experience points? Oh but wait, without Firemaking, there would be no lanterns, which mean you can't go down there to get all of that free experince. As well, Firemaking allows people to be mobile. When fishing, do you really want to go to a crowded area, which makes the fishing spot jump around like it's playing a game of Tag? Or do you want to find a secluded area where you can just relax, fish, cut a log, burn it, and cook your fish? I think that Firemaking allows F2P the ability to train Fishing and Cooking a lot easier, and with many more methods, than otherwise possible. It makes certain areas of the map more readily accessible, and more desirable than other, more popular, areas. Rimmington is a ghost town, but mainly because of the lack of a bank. There are fishing spots, and even willow trees there that nobody visits, because they can't bank, and then sell those items. But bring a woodcutting ax, and a tinderbox, and you have one of the best training areas in all of F2P. Firemaking cannot become part of another skill for the need of diversity. There are so many things that require Firemaking, that would make any other skill completely loaded with rewards, which would turn everybody to that skill. If Firemaking became a part of Crafting, I think you'd find many more people becoming high level Crafters for that reason.

[Ultimakomoto]

I think you just about crushed everything here...

 

More than anything, you've dispeled the whole "Firemaking is useless because you only lit fires" myth.

 

Every skill has it's purpose. Hunter and Slayer are just there as money-makers. It's rather doubtful people train those skills just to train them. Same with Summoning.

 

Summoning basicly extends almost every skill we already have, as a separate skill rather than a massive update to every skill by themselves. Think of it more as an add-on then a whole skill.

 

Oh yes, and...

 

Might have to say Fishing, since it's (although fast-ish), some pure Cooking items are better than most fish (Manta Ray = painfully hard to get, while Tuna potatoes are easy-ish to make, and, well, they're potatoes...)

 

I also predict that someone in the next Ten (10) posts will say Farming.

 

 

 

Can you please tell me how you will be able to make TUNA potatoes without being able to fish?

 

 

 

and most pointless skill....... fm by far

 

 

 

I already corrected my self-contradicting post in a later one. Please read though the WHOLE thread before posting stuff like this.

[RyderJ]

I think if I had to delete a skill, it would be all combat. *instantly shot*

 

 

 

But yeah, a whole game of level 3 skillers could be cool. :P

[walka92]

and not to seem greedy or whatever but my terrorbird or energy pots do me just fine.

 

Yes, and please tell me exactly HOW Tireless Run works without an Agility level?

 

 

 

Hmm good call.... crap. Well I still hate agility. And hey don't be mean!

 

maybe it could just do a set % recovery? maybe 35% or so?

[Stephleref]

Farming.

 

 

 

The only thing the skill does is give free herb/limpwurts to the lazy...

 

 

 

Hops are a waste of time,fruit and regular trees are useless,fruits and vegetables too (ok i know with sweetcorn you can do tuna potato but that was a filler really)

 

 

 

Same thing with Bird nest,they could just keep it as a Woodcutting random event without the seeds.

[db300]

A skill I could live without would be crafting. I like to level it, but it serves little purpose for me.

[Infi]

Firemaking for me. All skills serves a purpose to me except for firemaking, which seems more like a burden in the skill menu than an actual skill.

[Why_Not]

Definitely Firemaking, the only reason I have trained it is to hopefully get to 99 eventually so I can add to my 99 collection. I guess the cape is ok and gives a little worth to training it, but there's not much point in burning logs endless hours without any advantages gained.

[blakdragon39]

I think you just about crushed everything here...

 

More than anything, you've dispeled the whole "Firemaking is useless because you only lit fires" myth.

 

Every skill has it's purpose. Hunter and Slayer are just there as money-makers. It's rather doubtful people train those skills just to train them. Same with Summoning.

 

Summoning basicly extends almost every skill we already have, as a separate skill rather than a massive update to every skill by themselves. Think of it more as an add-on then a whole skill.

 

Oh yes, and...

 

 

 

Personally, I LOVE slayer. It's the most fun skill out there, to me. I train it, just to train it. I hardly ever get worthwhile drops. When I do, it's just a nice bonus. However, someone said something about how if the rewards weren't tradeable, it would be that much better. I kind of agree. It would make the things THAT much better, and much much more of an achievement. I kind of wish it was like that...

[Vuvuzela]

I think you just about crushed everything here...

 

More than anything, you've dispeled the whole "Firemaking is useless because you only lit fires" myth.

 

Every skill has it's purpose. Hunter and Slayer are just there as money-makers. It's rather doubtful people train those skills just to train them. Same with Summoning.

 

Summoning basicly extends almost every skill we already have, as a separate skill rather than a massive update to every skill by themselves. Think of it more as an add-on then a whole skill.

 

Oh yes, and...

 

There are probably alot of people that love to train the slayer skill itself, and I am one of them. It just gives me a different way to train my combats instead of grinding on the same monster over and over. Sure, I get a good drop here and there that's just another bonus in the skill itself.

[alcoolj]

For me it would be mining. I get all the ore I need from MTK, and monster drops to enable me to make my cannonballs, so havent used my pick since getting a few levels to meet a quest requirement.

[Ultimakomoto]

I said it was doubtful, not unsqueakable! :ohnoes:

 

Maybe the Slayer and Hunter fanatics will be merciful. Then again, I have my luck going against me for 2 years now. Why should it change? :evil: #-o

[nightzero]

I disagree with everyone saying summoning is useless. Really, that has almost completely changed the way people play.

 

 

 

The macaw brings in more high level herbs than there was before summoning which equals cheaper Herbalore training.

 

 

 

The bunyip and unicorn decreases the need for food dramatically. (From 90-98 defense i used only 100 monkfish, even with a fighter torso on) which equals to cheaper food.

 

 

 

People using familiars at monsters which equal to faster kills and exp.

 

 

 

I'm sure there's atleast a few people using a Ravenous Locust or Forge Regent at bounter hunter.

 

 

 

it's made items that were useless now 3m+.(Zammy Spear) good for Solo GWDers.

 

 

 

Probably the biggest one is the Spirit Terrorbird and beast of burdens. A LOT more inventory space and unlimited run energy? Changed Prayer,Runcrafting,Mining,Woodcutting,Fishing, and even con if you make your own planks. Not to mention that it helps Solo trips at gwd more than anything.

 

 

 

Summoning touches more skills than any other skill in the game. Anyone saying Summoning is useless either doesn't have the money to train it, or hasn't seen what the skill can do.

 

So far all you have listed is ways that Summoning makes the game easier, not better. Everything on your list was done before, it just took longer. So really, Summoning isn't a great skill, it's just a skill that speeds things up, which doesn't necessarily make it a great skill that one can't live without. I don't think you understand the phrase "can't live without." It means that it has to be something that cannot be done with any other method, like lighting pyre logs, or fletching magic longbows, or perhaps even building yourself a house. Summoning is useless in the fact that it doesn't let us do anything we couldn't have done before... it just lets us do it quicker and easier. Construction at least lets us build a home in which we can battle friends in a multitude of ways never seen before. I doubt anybody has seen the pummeling game before, American Gladiators' style. Or even allowing us to store items beyond our bank's normal capacity. Heck, Construction even gave us new ways to spend time with our friends like the dungeon, or just sitting down to the dining table to have a meal made by the cook.

 

 

 

Even if it isn't Construction, skills like RuneCraft, which was released due to the horrible effort to get to 99 Magic, has new abilities. The skill itself created a major industry in essence running. It created the viability of alching items for profit. And that was just what it offered at release. Now, years later, there's the Abyss which successfully acts as a transport system to anywhere in the world, just about. You can go from Edgeville to the Digsite in a matter of seconds, or even to Shilo Village. With pure essence, it created a seperate sector for lower level members: the ability to mine these essence, and make millions of gp with no need to be a level 100 or greater. Even something like Firemaking is more useful than Summoning.

 

 

 

With Firemaking, you have the ability to explore new areas unaccessible without a light. It makes fishing and cooking a viable f2p staple of life. Without firemaking, people would be constricted to certain areas, with certain requirements. Now, people can feel free to roam about the world, knowing they can do whatever it is that they need to do, because they have the security of a light, or the mobility of a fire. Fishing to the West of Port Sarim isn't a joking matter, simply because of the ability to light a fire right next to you, to allow you to cook on the spot. If that weren't possible, there would be absolutely no reason to fish there, other than solidarity.

 

 

 

Any skill is more viable, and more useful, than Summoning. It gives us cool pets that give us cool bonuses, but NONE of them offer us anything we couldn't do before. And I know someone will say "but now a level 80 can kill a level 100 monster, where he/she might not have been able to before." But guess what? That is remedied with this quick solution: Prayer Potions. If a person is able to kill a monster with a minion (assuming that this person has level 43 Prayer), then that person is more than capable of killing that monster. "But that would require Prayer that a person might not have," you say? Then isn't leveling Prayer just as simple as leveling Summoning to a level suitable to summon a significant attack minion? Anything lower than Bronze Minotaur, I'll even say, isn't going to be enough to help a person overcome that difficulty of killing a monster that is a much higher level than him/her.

 

 

 

The same goes for Slayer, really. I'd be fine with Slayer if the unique drops weren't able to be traded. An Abyssal Whip, Dragon Boots, or even the Granite Maul would be great rewards for a person of that Slayer level. But it's sad when a person with level 1 Slayer can wield something that requires level 85 Slayer to get. I believe this is the point that most people hate about Slayer: the "rewards" aren't rewards, so much as methods to get money.

 

 

 

The fact is, a lot of the newly released skills are useless. Summoning, Slayer, and especially Hunter. Ah Hunter, the skill that everybody levels up for the sake of leveling it up. So you can get Reds that make you gain faster Ranged levels. Again, that's not a unique ability, that's just something that speeds it up. The ONLY unique abilities of this skill are the clothes: Spotted/Spottier Capes, and the Thieving gloves. But lets face it, those could have been added as rewards for quests, minigames, other skills, or just purchasable from a clothing store. The only use that Hunter has right now, in any way, is to help with Ranged, weight, and Summoning (with the Ruby Harvest butterflies). We've taken care of how Summoning is useless, so that gets rid of the butterflies. Ranged can be trained without Reds, so there they go. The items that lower your weight could have been given out with the other methods stated above. To me, it just seems like Hunting is just a filler that Jagex made for the desire to release another skill to let people level. There was no thought behind it, and no follow-through to make it successful.

 

 

 

If this post wasn't long enough already, I'll just add one more paragraph to it. People keep saying that Firemaking is pointless, and that it offers no rewards. I fear that people are only clicking on the skill and scrolling through the pages to see what rewards are offered. Little does anybody realize that you need Firemaking to do things such as certain minigames, like the Tears of Guthix. Who doesn't want free experience points? Oh but wait, without Firemaking, there would be no lanterns, which mean you can't go down there to get all of that free experince. As well, Firemaking allows people to be mobile. When fishing, do you really want to go to a crowded area, which makes the fishing spot jump around like it's playing a game of Tag? Or do you want to find a secluded area where you can just relax, fish, cut a log, burn it, and cook your fish? I think that Firemaking allows F2P the ability to train Fishing and Cooking a lot easier, and with many more methods, than otherwise possible. It makes certain areas of the map more readily accessible, and more desirable than other, more popular, areas. Rimmington is a ghost town, but mainly because of the lack of a bank. There are fishing spots, and even willow trees there that nobody visits, because they can't bank, and then sell those items. But bring a woodcutting ax, and a tinderbox, and you have one of the best training areas in all of F2P. Firemaking cannot become part of another skill for the need of diversity. There are so many things that require Firemaking, that would make any other skill completely loaded with rewards, which would turn everybody to that skill. If Firemaking became a part of Crafting, I think you'd find many more people becoming high level Crafters for that reason.

 

 

 

Wolfe, most of your post is alright except your last paragraph is what caught my eye. You say that without firemaking there would be no Tears of Guthix....are you really that stupid(no offence)? Are you saying that there needs to be a skill called digging to have coordinate clues in treasure trails? You said many people would become high lvl crafters if fm was combined with crafting, but really how many people plan on getting past lvl 49 crafting/fm which is the requirement for firemaking. How often do you see people burning yews or magics? And if firemaking was part of crafting..then everyone wouldnt really need to lvl crafting in f2p because guess what? you can still burn normal tree logs which require 1 fm/crafting. So it wouldnt really create a huge demand in crafting....I can see it now "Newsflash: As fm has been combined with crafting, millions are cutting gems in hopes of lighting those amazing bulls-eye lanterns and burning magic logs." And Rimmington isnt "one of the best training areas in f2p". Even with fm no one fishes near Rimmington because of the reason stated...there isnt a bank! And really nowadays most lower lvls keep their fish uncooked because its easier to sell raw and it sells for more. Really the only people that cook on fires are the ones in that Rogue place...and that fires not even player made :P. Even in f2p mostly everyone does their cooking on ranges.

[nightzero]

I think you just about crushed everything here...

 

More than anything, you've dispeled the whole "Firemaking is useless because you only lit fires" myth.

 

Every skill has it's purpose. Hunter and Slayer are just there as money-makers. It's rather doubtful people train those skills just to train them. Same with Summoning.

 

Summoning basicly extends almost every skill we already have, as a separate skill rather than a massive update to every skill by themselves. Think of it more as an add-on then a whole skill.

 

Oh yes, and...

 

 

 

Personally, I LOVE slayer. It's the most fun skill out there, to me. I train it, just to train it. I hardly ever get worthwhile drops. When I do, it's just a nice bonus. However, someone said something about how if the rewards weren't tradeable, it would be that much better. I kind of agree. It would make the things THAT much better, and much much more of an achievement. I kind of wish it was like that...

 

 

 

Lol, imagine if abbysal whips were untradeable :lol:

[Lt_Wolfe]

I think you just about crushed everything here...

 

More than anything, you've dispeled the whole "Firemaking is useless because you only lit fires" myth.

 

Every skill has it's purpose. Hunter and Slayer are just there as money-makers. It's rather doubtful people train those skills just to train them. Same with Summoning.

 

Summoning basicly extends almost every skill we already have, as a separate skill rather than a massive update to every skill by themselves. Think of it more as an add-on then a whole skill.

 

Oh yes, and...

 

 

 

Personally, I LOVE slayer. It's the most fun skill out there, to me. I train it, just to train it. I hardly ever get worthwhile drops. When I do, it's just a nice bonus. However, someone said something about how if the rewards weren't tradeable, it would be that much better. I kind of agree. It would make the things THAT much better, and much much more of an achievement. I kind of wish it was like that...

 

 

 

Lol, imagine if abbysal whips were untradeable :lol:

 

That's exactly what I was trying to get people to think about. What if Slayer had actually become a requirement, instead of a skill we could level to make money? As it stands, that is all Slayer is really good for, or at best for being self sufficient. If you had to get 85 Slayer for the Abyssal Whip, just imagine how good those people will high Slayer level would be. Just imagine the sight of a person with a whip, and you look up to him or her as a kind of "hero" or "elite" player. We would get the sense of accomplishment back into the game. You look at a level 126 these days and think "wow, that's cool" but back when the whip was new, and you saw a 126 with one, it was "holy crap... he's a god!" I think that's what this game needs to keep it fresh. It acts as a motivation for people. To think "hey, I can do that. I want to do that!" would get people to train harder, and give them a reason to train: I certainly would want that. And with the way things are now, I've seen level 70-something's with whips. While that's fine and dandy, I still think that whips should be in the hands of the most powerful people, along with Dark Bows, and Dragon Boots, and the like. And just so people don't go saying "omg he just wants the stuff for himself" I want you guys to know that I'm only level 59 Slayer at the moment. Not like I'd get to keep a lot of cool stuff for myself, other than Mithril Boots.

[Legosimx]

AGILITY. I hat ethat skil lwith a fiery bruning passion.

[Devilgod08]

I couldnt live without prayer or hunter. Whoever says no prayer are idiots. No prayer for KPQ? Jad? GWD generals?

 

Hunter gives Red chinchompas. Sure you can easily level with them, but they are exspensive. Anything else in hunter does suck though.

 

The skill I can live without would be Firemaking.

[nightzero]

 

Personally, I LOVE slayer. It's the most fun skill out there, to me. I train it, just to train it. I hardly ever get worthwhile drops. When I do, it's just a nice bonus. However, someone said something about how if the rewards weren't tradeable, it would be that much better. I kind of agree. It would make the things THAT much better, and much much more of an achievement. I kind of wish it was like that...

 

 

 

Lol, imagine if abbysal whips were untradeable :lol:

 

That's exactly what I was trying to get people to think about. What if Slayer had actually become a requirement, instead of a skill we could level to make money? As it stands, that is all Slayer is really good for, or at best for being self sufficient. If you had to get 85 Slayer for the Abyssal Whip, just imagine how good those people will high Slayer level would be. Just imagine the sight of a person with a whip, and you look up to him or her as a kind of "hero" or "elite" player. We would get the sense of accomplishment back into the game. You look at a level 126 these days and think "wow, that's cool" but back when the whip was new, and you saw a 126 with one, it was "holy crap... he's a god!" I think that's what this game needs to keep it fresh. It acts as a motivation for people. To think "hey, I can do that. I want to do that!" would get people to train harder, and give them a reason to train: I certainly would want that. And with the way things are now, I've seen level 70-something's with whips. While that's fine and dandy, I still think that whips should be in the hands of the most powerful people, along with Dark Bows, and Dragon Boots, and the like. And just so people don't go saying "omg he just wants the stuff for himself" I want you guys to know that I'm only level 59 Slayer at the moment. Not like I'd get to keep a lot of cool stuff for myself, other than Mithril Boots.

 

 

 

Lol, I definetely agree with your idea, slayer would be so much awesomer if boots and the like needed a slayer req. Or how about, they would be tradeable just, dragon boots need 83 slayer,etc,etc.

[nightzero]

Farming.

 

 

 

The only thing the skill does is give free herb/limpwurts to the lazy...

 

 

 

Hops are a waste of time,fruit and regular trees are useless,fruits and vegetables too (ok i know with sweetcorn you can do tuna potato but that was a filler really)

 

 

 

Same thing with Bird nest,they could just keep it as a Woodcutting random event without the seeds.

 

 

 

99 Herblore is hard enough, i'm actually glad theres farming, otherwise herblore would be so immensely hard to train.