"I want a girlfriend/boyfriend", and other such relationship advice

[obfuscator]

He's saying lying is bad, and if we could have alternative relationships in an honest way, then we would be happier.

Or, you know, we could just maintain monogamous relationships and not cheat.

[muggiwhplar]

So there's only two opitions? Hate men/women or enjoy cheating?

 

Couldn't there be 'hate cheaters'?

 

Sure. But why would you choose to hate cheaters when you could choose to be happy?

 

Because you're not making sense at all - you say you don't like cheating then praise it into bringing the world eternal happiness?

 

I tried to make it as clear as possible that the cheating analogy was just hypothetical food for thought :wall: lol

 

I'll be straightforward then... again >_> Do you believe it's possible for two people to be in an honest, loving, and OPEN relationship? And if so, is there anything wrong with that? Would you consider it better than monogamy? Worse? The same? Why?

 

Like I said in my response to Flyingjj, I don't think it's the concept of cheating that's bothering people and making everyone so defensive-- it's the implications of cheating: the possibility that open relationships are better than monogamous relationships.

 

Oh and of course, everybody is "following the rules like a drone" and you're the only enlightened thinker here. :roll:

 

Well, that's one (cynical) way to put it I guess >_> But there's nothing wrong w/ following the rules like a drone unless you're unhappy. There's nothing wrong with monogamy unless it's making you unhappy. At the same time, if honest open relationships make you happier than monogamy, why would one choose the monogamy?

 

He's saying lying is bad, and if we could have alternative relationships in an honest way, then we would be happier.

Or, you know, we could just maintain monogamous relationships and not cheat.

 

Yes, we could. But why would you choose monogamy over an honest open relationship?

[muggiwhplar]

A) That's a big claim for someone who's been alive for this long.

B) Does this lack of self-control stem from the decline of artificial moral codes (especially religious ones, which for some/many were fetters rather than wholeheartedly followed values), or are people nowadays less likely to have internal moral principles?

 

I think you're confusing morals w/ instincts.

 

Our instincts usually override our morals because our instincts show us how to prosper as individuals, whereas our morals usually force us to make personal sacrifices in order for society to prosper-- with or without us.

 

Biological wiring (instincts) trumps societal programming (morals). Nobody is completely capable of following their morals and logical mind 100% of the time-- we're emotional beings capable of logic, not the other way around.

 

That's why we often sacrifice long-term well-being for short-term gratification. Or, in this case, sacrificing a long-term "healthy" relationship for a one-night-stand.

 

Monogamy/marriage is based around the ideal that we'll follow our morals within the context of a relationship 100% of the time. Sadly, that puts restrictions on urges which are just too powerful for us to resist for that long.

I'm only really addressing the idea that self-control is (becoming) a lost art. I think there was never much self-control to begin with, only control by the other through principles which don't make sense to everyone anymore or never really did. In this case, the article shows a case where morals don't lead to self-sacrifice for the well-being of society, which is why they're all the harder to follow.

 

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification

[Duff]

Frankly, I don't believe a man can claim to truly love a woman if he cannot offer up his desires to 'bang' other women for her sake.

 

Again, it just doesn't seem to me to be possible that a woman who truly loves a man will let him run rampant among a bunch of other women. And if she does, I doubt their relationship is truly a 'good' one.

 

At the same time, if honest open relationships make you happier than monogamy, why would one choose the monogamy?

What about the woman's happiness? Seems a bit selfish.

 

Also, since this whole matter deals with having sex with other women while still claiming to be in love with only one, I think there's a little too much hedonism in this than I like. There are more important things than physical pleasure (like maintaining a faithful relationship with your spouse/partner).

[Giordano]

And where the hell did I say open relationships were wrong in any way? The reason why I don't like cheaters is the emotional damage they do on their partner. If the couple both consent to a open relationship, then nobody gets hurt and thus nothing is wrong.

 

You're viewing this as I'm the old conservative priest and you're the trendy guru, in a battle of black vs. white. It's [bleep]ing not.

 

So you can see how I don't agree with the article, with it's bluntly justifying cheating in closed relationships? I don't give a damn if you and your partner have an open relationship, but if you want to date someone within the mainstream society, one who wants a closed relationship, leave your biological-happy-instinct justification bullshit out.

[muggiwhplar]

Yeah that's the normal response from everyone I discuss this with. And I disagree with it :P

 

Frankly, I don't believe a man can claim to truly love a woman if he cannot offer up his desires to 'bang' other women for her sake.

 

I think you're confusing sex and intimacy here again. The two are two completely different things that have nothing to do w/ each other. As a mild example to give you a frame of reference, think of a time where you've been in love with a girl. During that time, were you not attracted by ANY other girls, regardless of how beautiful they were?

 

Again, it just doesn't seem to me to be possible that a woman who truly loves a man will let him run rampant among a bunch of other women. And if she does, I doubt their relationship is truly a 'good' one.

 

She's allowed to see men on the side too. Like I said, though-- sex and intimacy don't have anything to do with each other.

 

What about the woman's happiness? Seems a bit selfish.

 

I don't see how it's selfish, considering both partners mutually benefit from the arrangement; women benefit from this as much as men do. Women also cheat as much as men do and have the same sexual urges as men... I feel like you're viewing men as unfaithful people and women as victims of men's sexual desires.

 

Also, since this whole matter deals with having sex with other women while still claiming to be in love with only one, I think there's a little too much hedonism in this than I like.

 

Yeah-- but hopefully you realize that just because it makes you uncomfortable, that doesn't mean it's a bad idea or worse than monogamy.

 

There are more important things than physical pleasure (like maintaining a faithful relationship with your spouse/partner).

 

Does this mean you would be prefer a monogamous relationship w/o any sex to an honest open relationship?

[obfuscator]

 

Yes, we could. But why would you choose monogamy over an honest open relationship?

 

Because I believe monogamy is better.

[muggiwhplar]

And where the hell did I say open relationships were wrong in any way? The reason why I don't like cheaters is the emotional damage they do on their partner. If the couple both consent to a open relationship, then nobody gets hurt and thus nothing is wrong.

 

You didn't. And that's why I was asking. I'm glad you finally clarified your stance, though :) Thanks

 

I already know why you (and me, and everybody else) dislikes cheaters. There's no need to discuss that any further.

 

You're viewing this as I'm the old conservative priest and you're the trendy guru, in a battle of black vs. white. It's [bleep]ing not.

 

No, that's how you're viewing this.

 

So you can see how I don't agree with the article, with it's bluntly justifying cheating in closed relationships? I don't give a damn if you and your partner have an open relationship, but if you want to date someone within the mainstream society, one who wants a closed relationship, leave your biological-happy-instinct justification bullshit out.

 

Yes, within the context of the closed relationship, this biological phenomena is considered cheating. But within the context of the open relationship, this same phenomena is considered normal. Hope you understand that.

 

Anyways, if you wanna keep debating/discussing this w/ me that's fine, I enjoy doing this. I do wish, however, that you'd quit sounding so irritable in your posts here >_>

 

You also never answered my question as to why you would choose to hate cheaters instead of being happy.

[muggiwhplar]

 

Yes, we could. But why would you choose monogamy over an honest open relationship?

 

Because I believe monogamy is better.

 

Thought so.

 

Do you consider it to be better for basically the same reasons that Duff said?

[obfuscator]

 

Yes, we could. But why would you choose monogamy over an honest open relationship?

 

Because I believe monogamy is better.

 

Thought so.

 

Do you consider it to be better for basically the same reasons that Duff said?

Similar ones.

 

My biggest issue with your claims is that you say there is no connection between sex and love; yet it's well known that the hormonal changes involved in love are often triggered by sex.

 

In short, you cannot love one person while having sex with many as much as you can while having an exclusive sexual relationship with them. I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence of "honest, open relationships" going south because one of the partners has fallen in love with the lover.

[Giordano]

Yes, within the context of the closed relationship, this biological phenomena is considered cheating. But within the context of the open relationship, this same phenomena is considered normal. Hope you understand that.

I well understand this - so when the article said "cheating" it mean within closed relationships - which we're both against, yet you're praising the article for telling the divine truth.

 

You also never answered my question as to why you would choose to hate cheaters instead of being happy.

I don't know what you mean by this. I should be happy at my cheating partner? I should be happy that a deared one betrayed me and ruined their word of honor? Or do you mean "Yay I'm single, lets [bleep] 10 other girls"? Because I gladly support that kind of attitude: getting over it. But it doesn't mean the cheater is going isn't going to be hated.

[tripsis]

I completely agree with obfuscator. There is definitely a strong connection between sex and love. That's not to say that you must love everyone you have sex with, but there is definitely a connection. I also think that "I cheat because if I asked for an open relationship she would get mad, break up with me, or just deny my request" is a really pathetic reason. I have absolutely no problem with open relationships as long as they're consensual on both sides, but I think there is absolutely no justification for cheating. I find it extremely selfish that men would emotionally destroy their girlfriends (by cheating on them) so they can have everything they want (one night stands and the emotional benefits from a serious relationship). I wouldn't want to date a person like that. It shows a complete lack of respect and just selfishness.

[Duff]

Yeah that's the normal response from everyone I discuss this with. And I disagree with it :P

 

Frankly, I don't believe a man can claim to truly love a woman if he cannot offer up his desires to 'bang' other women for her sake.

 

I think you're confusing sex and intimacy here again. The two are two completely different things that have nothing to do w/ each other. As a mild example to give you a frame of reference, think of a time where you've been in love with a girl. During that time, were you not attracted by ANY other girls, regardless of how beautiful they were?

I don't see how that has anything to do with not acting on these desires. Then again, I may have missed a crucial point... Wasn't the article talking about having sex with other women while being in a 'loving' relationship with another?

 

What about the woman's happiness? Seems a bit selfish.

 

I don't see how it's selfish, considering both partners mutually benefit from the arrangement; women benefit from this as much as men do. Women also cheat as much as men do and have the same sexual urges as men... I feel like you're viewing men as unfaithful people and women as victims of men's sexual desires.

Again, I'd like to see some evidence from studies that show that women cheat on men as much as men do while claiming to love that one man in the true sense of the word.

 

There are more important things than physical pleasure (like maintaining a faithful relationship with your spouse/partner).

 

Does this mean you would be prefer a monogamous relationship w/o any sex to an honest open relationship?

Nope. Not at all. I never said I wasn't planning on having sex with my wife. I'm saying that loyalty to a woman who doesn't want you to have sex with other women is more important than fulfilling your physical desires with other women.

[RpgGamer]

The more this moral war is waged, the less I give a shit.

 

No relationship will ever be the same from person to person. When two people become intimate and monogamous, we call it a relationship. Trying to label anything else, or define social parameters for it's behavioral construct is just asinine.

 

 

[this is the argument I've made to many a girl, and it's been received in a mixed concession; it's not a very romantic notion admittingly {but if I'm not looking for romance - IDGAF} ]

[muggiwhplar]

 

Yes, we could. But why would you choose monogamy over an honest open relationship?

 

Because I believe monogamy is better.

 

Thought so.

 

Do you consider it to be better for basically the same reasons that Duff said?

Similar ones.

 

My biggest issue with your claims is that you say there is no connection between sex and love; yet it's well known that the hormonal changes involved in love are often triggered by sex.

 

In short, you cannot love one person while having sex with many as much as you can while having an exclusive sexual relationship with them. I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence of "honest, open relationships" going south because one of the partners has fallen in love with the lover.

 

Well, think about how most relationships start out with dating, followed by sex. In some instances, the sex doesn't come till as long as marriage. But for most people who choose open relationships, they have sex basically as soon as they meet, and then get to know each other afterwards-- the total opposite of the usual way. Seems more "natural" too, IMO.

 

As far as the anecdotal evidence goes, you're right that happens sometimes and that's one of the flaws of that particular "model" of open relationships.

 

But for the record, I think it's better to just have casual relationships with everyone rather than a committed one, even if it's in an open relationship... basically because like you pointed out, regardless of if the relationship's open or closed, the fact that it's a relationship gives it certain "weaknesses." Hope that makes sense >_> I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts on that into words.

 

EDIT: 4 more replies while I was typing this one. FFFFUUUUUU--

[obfuscator]

Well, think about how most relationships start out with dating, followed by sex. In some instances, the sex doesn't come till as long as marriage. But for most people who choose open relationships, they have sex basically as soon as they meet, and then get to know each other afterwards-- the total opposite of the usual way. Seems more "natural" too, IMO.

 

I don't think it's "natural" at all. If you look at the "nature" of sexual relationships, they involve courtships of some manner in order to determine the partner's suitability as a father or mother. In the case of humans, that courtship is usually much longer. As most "open" relationships tend to not be fore reproductive purposes, I'd say it's not particularly natural at all.

 

As far as the anecdotal evidence goes, you're right that happens sometimes and that's one of the flaws of that particular "model" of open relationships.

 

Exactly - which is why your claim that "things would be better if we were all in open relationships" is probably not correct. Humans will never have perfect harmony in relationships; either monogamous or otherwise.

 

But for the record, I think it's better to just have casual relationships with everyone rather than a committed one, even if it's in an open relationship... basically because like you pointed out, regardless of if the relationship's open or closed, the fact that it's a relationship gives it certain "weaknesses." Hope that makes sense >_> I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts on that into words.

 

I agree that, in the long run, in most cases, many casual relationships are probably a more likely source of hapiness than one open committed relationship. But I think one closed committed relationship offers humans the most possible happiness - for the price of hard work, of course.

[Omar]

Actually, obfuscator, Bonobos do the deed for fun all the time. Besides, just because most animals do it one way, doesn't mean we should do it that way too.

 

I'm not even into the whole polyamorous/polygamous thing; I would just expect more suspension of judgment. Muggi isn't calling for the end of monogamous relationships, just a larger system which regards every relationship in the same way, so long as no lying is involved.

[Kimberly]

So long as there's equal love between all parties, aside for legal issues and cultist abuse potential, is it really a problem?

[obfuscator]

Actually, obfuscator, Bonobos do the deed for fun all the time. Besides, just because most animals do it one way, doesn't mean we should do it that way too.

 

I can easily flip that on it's head and say that just because many animals aren't monogamous, doesn't mean we should do it that way. The fact is, if you're looking at the "most natural" aspects of sex, reproduction is a key facet.

[Omar]

There we go. Trying to elaborate standardized guidelines to relationships through logic is a waste of time because not every individual wants the same things.

[Edit] All I was trying to say about Bonobos was that non-human animals are irrelevant.

[Giordano]

Hey! Human relationships aren't like animals? Good, I'm glad people understand this. :shades:

 

 

And this isn't even a moral war, RPG. Nobody likes to have friends that backstab them. Justifying backstabbing raises flags, that's all.

[Omar]

Backstabbing and cheating are inadequate words. Muggi is advocating honesty.

[Giordano]

Backstabbing and cheating are inadequate words. Muggi is advocating honesty.

No no, if it's a open relationship then it's not called cheating. Cheating is when you go with other people besides your partner in a closed relationship. That is basically a backstab.

[Omar]

You're right, and it's terrible. But it's legitimate to wonder if it's not symptomatic of a flawed model. It's not a justification, it's an explanation.

[muggiwhplar]

Yes, within the context of the closed relationship, this biological phenomena is considered cheating. But within the context of the open relationship, this same phenomena is considered normal. Hope you understand that.

I well understand this - so when the article said "cheating" it mean within closed relationships - which we're both against, yet you're praising the article for telling the divine truth.

 

You also never answered my question as to why you would choose to hate cheaters instead of being happy.

I don't know what you mean by this. I should be happy at my cheating partner? I should be happy that a deared one betrayed me and ruined their word of honor? Or do you mean "Yay I'm single, lets [bleep] 10 other girls"? Because I gladly support that kind of attitude: getting over it. But it doesn't mean the cheater is going isn't going to be hated.

 

Then I suppose this goes back to whether or not you think the article is true or not. Because if it is, then that basically means that every man and woman have the urge to cheat. Whether or not they act on it is another story, but the fact remains that it's still there in their minds.

 

I feel that the article gives a valid explanation for cheating and human emotions, however that does not necessarily justify cheating.

 

I completely agree with obfuscator. There is definitely a strong connection between sex and love. That's not to say that you must love everyone you have sex with, but there is definitely a connection. I also think that "I cheat because if I asked for an open relationship she would get mad, break up with me, or just deny my request" is a really pathetic reason. I have absolutely no problem with open relationships as long as they're consensual on both sides, but I think there is absolutely no justification for cheating. I find it extremely selfish that men would emotionally destroy their girlfriends (by cheating on them) so they can have everything they want (one night stands and the emotional benefits from a serious relationship). I wouldn't want to date a person like that. It shows a complete lack of respect and just selfishness.

 

As far as the connection between sex and love goes, I disagree. The article also states that sex and love are two completely different things. Whether or not you agree with that conclusion is up to you, though. I agree with you on everything else you said.

 

I don't see how that has anything to do with not acting on these desires. Then again, I may have missed a crucial point... Wasn't the article talking about having sex with other women while being in a 'loving' relationship with another?

 

Basically the article is stating that love and sex are separate things. But you don't agree with that. So I mean this is kind of a stalemate here unless you become a proactive skeptic about this rather than a defensive skeptic. Meaning, instead of doubting what the article is saying and dismissing it-- you should try it out for yourself and see if it's actually true or not and base your opinion on that.

 

Nope. Not at all. I never said I wasn't planning on having sex with my wife. I'm saying that loyalty to a woman who doesn't want you to have sex with other women is more important than fulfilling your physical desires with other women.

 

What if you didn't have a choice and your wife's sex drive plummeted after a few years into the relationship, while yours remained high? That's what's happening in a lot of these monogamous relationships and it puts men in a really awkward predicament... basically a lose-lose situation.

 

I don't think it's "natural" at all. If you look at the "nature" of sexual relationships, they involve courtships of some manner in order to determine the partner's suitability as a father or mother. In the case of humans, that courtship is usually much longer. As most "open" relationships tend to not be fore reproductive purposes, I'd say it's not particularly natural at all.

 

I disagree about courtships, from a biological perspective. In our modern day and age, yeah, there's definitely a courting procedure before sex. But before human beings formed civilizations, men just had sex with every woman they were attracted to. Women were the ones who were picky-- they're the ones stuck with a bun in the oven for 9 months and need protection :P Men aren't designed to be monogamous; women are designed to be monogamous, but only for 2-3 years at a time-- not forever.

 

I do like your point about how it's unnatural to have sex w/o considering reproduction, though. I honestly had never considered that before. I don't think that sex's sole purpose must be reproduction in the case of humans though. It can be just for fun.

 

Exactly - which is why your claim that "things would be better if we were all in open relationships" is probably not correct. Humans will never have perfect harmony in relationships; either monogamous or otherwise.

 

I believe that things would be better for the individual if we were all in open relationships, but not necessarily for society as a whole. If EVERYBODY was in open relationships, it could be worse off for society as a whole, but society has changed so much compared to when monogamy was first introduced, so it's hard to tell what would happen. But either way, since monogamy has become so deeply ingrained within our culture, I think it's safe to say that monogamy's going to remain "normal" for quite some time. Thus, open relationships are a good alternative for those "bold" enough to try them out.

 

I agree that, in the long run, in most cases, many casual relationships are probably a more likely source of hapiness than one open committed relationship. But I think one closed committed relationship offers humans the most possible happiness - for the price of hard work, of course.

 

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here as usual, then :P Though I figure I might as well give my two cents as to why I prefer casual relationships over one closed, committed one. I'll try to keep this concise as possible... Again, I'm not writing this to change your mind; rather, I'm writing this to offer a perspective that I feel most readers on this thread have never considered.

 

 

Why I Prefer Casual Relationships to Closed Committed Relationships, In a Nutshell:

 

Last summer, I was at the happiest Id ever been, despite not much changing in my life externallyall the happiness came from within. Realizing this, I took advantage of this and wrote a note to myself, in case my happiness was ever jeopardized. The note basically said, Muggi, you are extremely happy right now, yet you dont have a lot of things. You dont have a well-paying job, you cant bench press double your bodyweight, you dont have any sexual or romantic partners, etc Yet youre still happier than anyone else you know. However, at some point, you may feel like you need something you dont have, and your happiness will suffer. Just remember that it is possible to be happy without it.

 

I basically just realized that I was extremely happy with the few things that I did have-- and, more importantly, that I didn't need a lot of things to maintain that happiness. To be more specific, I didn't need a close relationship with a girl who loved me... because I loved myself. And my parents love me. And my closest friends love me. And that's really all I need.

 

I feel like most people these days form closed relationships because they want to feel loved by another person, and they don't want that person to "love" anybody else. However, as the relationship progresses and infatuation subsides, emotions/hormones shift, and people get married-- they stay together more for logistical purposes, rather than for love. Divorces are messy-- financially, legally, emotionally-- even worse when kids are involved. That's just something I'd like to avoid at all costs lol

 

...Hope my perspective was insightful to some of you. I'm sure most people won't take it to heart, though. I don't really expect them to. Oh well-- their loss IMO :P

 

So long as there's equal love between all parties, aside for legal issues and cultist abuse potential, is it really a problem?

 

Nope