Today...

[Ammako]

I'm a nuclear weapon \o/

[Veiva]

 

 

Oh that automata class sounds cool, I don't think we even offered a class like that

You don't have a class that teaches push down automata, context free grammars, and Turing machines? Those are all really important to creating compilers, and the two classes we had on it both liked to imply that CFGs were one of those things that every programmer had to know.

 

Not every programmer writes compilers, drivers, cryptography software, or operating systems. The vast majority of programmers deal with (relatively) straightforward business logic and that stuff is overkill for that sort of job.

 

Yeah, when you get programmers who don't have a good grasp of software development and computer science, and they write business software, you get FACEBOOK SCALE, yeah!: http://quellish.tumblr.com/post/129756254607/q-why-is-the-facebook-app-so-large-a-ios-cant

 

To be honest, if (or when, I don't know) I get a job in software development, I really hope it's something interesting. I've spent my personal time writing interesting software. I found a reasonably viable exploit in Windows Media DRM to simply dump decrypted frames (better put, packets) of a DRM-protected media file using WMP itself. I wrote a pretty neat hardware-accelerated resolution independent curve renderer with some interesting design decisions that enable styling, groups (for translucency hierarchies), and clipping that efficiently utilizes modern GPU resources and state. I wrote a spiffy DLL injection utility that provides a nice API for overriding existing symbols. Using this DLL injection utility, I made a program that can capture visual rendering state of an OpenGL application so I can later render it (I'm aware tools like this exist, but they're for debugging the output, not just saving it). And there's plenty more I can't think of. And there's plenty more I'd like to do.

 

Oh well, depending on any AI revolutions in the next few decades, programming might not even be a job anymore. So it goes.

[obfuscator]

Yeah, when you get programmers who don't have a good grasp of software development and computer science, and they write business software, you get FACEBOOK SCALE, yeah!: http://quellish.tumblr.com/post/129756254607/q-why-is-the-facebook-app-so-large-a-ios-cant

I never said you didn't need to have a good grasp of software development, I said that understanding complex compiler theory and other abstract things isn't necessary for the majority of programming. I don't need to be able to write an OS from scratch to be able to understand keeping app footprints small is a good goal.

[Veiva]

 

Yeah, when you get programmers who don't have a good grasp of software development and computer science, and they write business software, you get FACEBOOK SCALE, yeah!: http://quellish.tumblr.com/post/129756254607/q-why-is-the-facebook-app-so-large-a-ios-cant

I never said you didn't need to have a good grasp of software development, I said that understanding complex compiler theory and other abstract things isn't necessary for the majority of programming. I don't need to be able to write an OS from scratch to be able to understand keeping app footprints small is a good goal.

 

Liberal arts is an important aspect of education that most people do not quite understand. Having a general grasp of the massive amount of knowledge attainable is a good thing. Limiting yourself to "necessary" knowledge is backwards and actually damaging. I would go as far to say that being against a general education (context is important) is like embracing ignorance.

 

The methodology of liberal arts can also be applied to general computer science and "oh so you just want to write PHP apps, huh." The former will excel, the latter... will only write PHP apps.

 

Knowing how hardware and software interact and the theory behind computing is actually crucial to writing well performing software, surprisingly. That's why languages like Python and JavaScript and C# and all the others are actually harmful if you don't already have a solid understanding of how a computer works, because you're going to write crappy software that requires way too much hardware for the task you are doing (see Facebook app). Interestingly enough, to be a good software developer, you'll essentially understand how your operating system works, how programming languages are compiled, and much more.

[obfuscator]

Liberal arts is an important aspect of education that most people do not quite understand. Having a general grasp of the massive amount of knowledge attainable is a good thing. Limiting yourself to "necessary" knowledge is backwards and actually damaging. I would go as far to say that being against a general education (context is important) is like embracing ignorance.

I never said you should limit yourself to necessary knowledge, I just said that taking courses on compiler theory isn't necessary for the majority of programmers, which is true. I also wouldn't call that liberal arts.

 

The methodology of liberal arts can also be applied to general computer science and "oh so you just want to write PHP apps, huh." The former will excel, the latter... will only write PHP apps.

 

Knowing how hardware and software interact and the theory behind computing is actually crucial to writing well performing software, surprisingly. That's why languages like Python and JavaScript and C# and all the others are actually harmful if you don't already have a solid understanding of how a computer works, because you're going to write crappy software that requires way too much hardware for the task you are doing (see Facebook app). Interestingly enough, to be a good software developer, you'll essentially understand how your operating system works, how programming languages are compiled, and much more.

Having a general knowledge, sure. Having to actually write a compiler, no. There are plenty of excellent programmers using high level languages who have little or no experience with low level languages.

[Tesset]

Oh, yeah, my sarcasm didn't come across very well there. It seems like one of those things academics seem to think you need to know, even though 99% of programmers will never use it. Like the way linked lists are implemented, even though who is ever going to program their own linked lists. That kind of thing.

[Noxx]

Went to test-drive some cars today. Oh boy... made the choice so much harder. Tbh they all pretty much feel the same over all, there are just little things here and there that set them apart. The Audi is probably best bang for your buck because it's slightly cheaper but still has a pretty big engine (4.2 litre v8) and it just looks so sexy. Right now it's a tossup between the M4 and the RS5 since i have a friend that works at the BMW dealer and he might be able to get a good deal for me. These cars make my Mustang look like a low-budget toy though. German cars almost drive themselves, it's crazy.

[Estonian dude]

I'd take whichever I get as a wagon.

I <3 wagons.

+ they look hot.

+ they fit a lot of stuff.

[Veiva]

 

Liberal arts is an important aspect of education that most people do not quite understand. Having a general grasp of the massive amount of knowledge attainable is a good thing. Limiting yourself to "necessary" knowledge is backwards and actually damaging. I would go as far to say that being against a general education (context is important) is like embracing ignorance.

I never said you should limit yourself to necessary knowledge, I just said that taking courses on compiler theory isn't necessary for the majority of programmers, which is true. I also wouldn't call that liberal arts.

 

The methodology of liberal arts can also be applied to general computer science and "oh so you just want to write PHP apps, huh." The former will excel, the latter... will only write PHP apps.

 

Knowing how hardware and software interact and the theory behind computing is actually crucial to writing well performing software, surprisingly. That's why languages like Python and JavaScript and C# and all the others are actually harmful if you don't already have a solid understanding of how a computer works, because you're going to write crappy software that requires way too much hardware for the task you are doing (see Facebook app). Interestingly enough, to be a good software developer, you'll essentially understand how your operating system works, how programming languages are compiled, and much more.

Having a general knowledge, sure. Having to actually write a compiler, no. There are plenty of excellent programmers using high level languages who have little or no experience with low level languages.

 

 

You won't write a good book in any spoken language if you don't have a solid understanding of what makes literature good. You can learn and be fluent in French, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, Latin, any and all languages you want, but it won't make you a good author or speaker.

 

"Unskilled" programming (which, admittedly, is a large majority of the available jobs) is easily replaceable, by cheaper labor or, in the near future, perhaps even "simple" AI (simple in comparison to a fully fledged technological singularity type of AI; still advanced compared to modern AI). Not knowing how to implement a common data structure, not knowing how memory is managed, not knowing how the hardware runs your code, not knowing how to write an algorithm from a formal description, simply because someone else has done it for you is a terrible excuse. What happens when you're given a task that has no previous implementation in your language of choice, yet you don't have the skills to implement it? Even in business logic kind of apps, you will run into these issues, and you won't always have someone who gives a crap to make up for your ineptitude (note, this is a general usage of "you," I'm not directing this at anyone in particular).

 

"Excellent" programmers not knowing how to use a low level language is contradictory. Excellent programming is independent of language, so you can easily apply your knowledge and skills in any language you need. In fact, knowing which language is best in implementing an idea is part of this process.

[obfuscator]

You won't write a good book in any spoken language if you don't have a solid understanding of what makes literature good. You can learn and be fluent in French, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, Latin, any and all languages you want, but it won't make you a good author or speaker.

Yes, but you don't need to have a doctorate in linguistics to write a good book.

  

"Unskilled" programming (which, admittedly, is a large majority of the available jobs) is easily replaceable, by cheaper labor or, in the near future, perhaps even "simple" AI (simple in comparison to a fully fledged technological singularity type of AI; still advanced compared to modern AI). Not knowing how to implement a common data structure, not knowing how memory is managed, not knowing how the hardware runs your code, not knowing how to write an algorithm from a formal description, simply because someone else has done it for you is a terrible excuse. What happens when you're given a task that has no previous implementation in your language of choice, yet you don't have the skills to implement it? Even in business logic kind of apps, you will run into these issues, and you won't always have someone who gives a crap to make up for your ineptitude (note, this is a general usage of "you," I'm not directing this at anyone in particular).

 

Calling it unskilled is probably a little unfair. I'd say less-skilled. To analogize: for a beautiful symphony to be performed, someone needs to write it, and some people need to play it. I'd say playing is not as impressive as writing, but it's still critically important.

 

Also, people have been predicting the death of unskilled programming for quite literally thirty years, and it's yet to happen.

 

"Excellent" programmers not knowing how to use a low level language is contradictory. Excellent programming is independent of language, so you can easily apply your knowledge and skills in any language you need. In fact, knowing which language is best in implementing an idea is part of this process.

Excellent programmers could figure it out, but they might not know right now or have learned it formally.

 

Ultimately, I think we're on a different page regarding just how much knowledge of these things you need. Any competent programmer should know the difference between the stack and heap, but someone who builds straightforward web applications for a living doesn't need to know how to write a static analyzer.

[Veiva]

 

You won't write a good book in any spoken language if you don't have a solid understanding of what makes literature good. You can learn and be fluent in French, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, Latin, any and all languages you want, but it won't make you a good author or speaker.

1) Yes, but you don't need to have a doctorate in linguistics to write a good book.

  

"Unskilled" programming (which, admittedly, is a large majority of the available jobs) is easily replaceable, by cheaper labor or, in the near future, perhaps even "simple" AI (simple in comparison to a fully fledged technological singularity type of AI; still advanced compared to modern AI). Not knowing how to implement a common data structure, not knowing how memory is managed, not knowing how the hardware runs your code, not knowing how to write an algorithm from a formal description, simply because someone else has done it for you is a terrible excuse. What happens when you're given a task that has no previous implementation in your language of choice, yet you don't have the skills to implement it? Even in business logic kind of apps, you will run into these issues, and you won't always have someone who gives a crap to make up for your ineptitude (note, this is a general usage of "you," I'm not directing this at anyone in particular).

 

2) Calling it unskilled is probably a little unfair. I'd say less-skilled. To analogize: for a beautiful symphony to be performed, someone needs to write it, and some people need to play it. I'd say playing is not as impressive as writing, but it's still critically important.

 

Also, people have been predicting the death of unskilled programming for quite literally thirty years, and it's yet to happen.

 

"Excellent" programmers not knowing how to use a low level language is contradictory. Excellent programming is independent of language, so you can easily apply your knowledge and skills in any language you need. In fact, knowing which language is best in implementing an idea is part of this process.

3) Excellent programmers could figure it out, but they might not know right now or have learned it formally.

 

Ultimately, I think we're on a different page regarding just how much knowledge of these things you need. Any competent programmer should know the difference between the stack and heap, but someone who builds straightforward web applications for a living doesn't need to know how to write a static analyzer.

 

1) James Joyce spent over 15 years writing Finnegans Wake. Pretty sure he spent more time writing and developing his craft on that single work than anyone spends pursuing a Doctorate's. I'm not arguing you need a formal education, I'm arguing you simply need proper (self-taught or not) education to be an excellent programmer.

 

2) It sucks that being a script kiddie isn't, in any way, an achievement, compared to a hacker, but that's how it is. I suppose if your aspiration is to just crap out PHP, a proper education might not matter too much. However, someone will have to compensate, be it the system architect or your fellow coworkers.

 

3) Excellent programmers will have the foundation to pick up a native language, yes. That foundation includes all this "unnecessary" crap.

 

I'm also frustrated about your hyperbolic statements. Writing a static analyzer or a compiler or an operating system all require a foundation of computer science and software engineering experience. Once you have this foundation, your task is pretty much an application of your experience. This goes from web applications to compilers, from video games to mission critical simulations. Seriously...

[Alg]

 

You won't write a good book in any spoken language if you don't have a solid understanding of what makes literature good. You can learn and be fluent in French, Chinese, Korean, Arabic, Latin, any and all languages you want, but it won't make you a good author or speaker.

Yes, but you don't need to have a doctorate in linguistics to write a good book.

You would be surprised at how common it is for people to skip on the basic foundation though. I personally know several people that think they can write a good story when they clearly don't know the basic rules of English. They can get by in communication, but you couldn't really even call them skilled, let alone excellent.

[obfuscator]

You would be surprised at how common it is for people to skip on the basic foundation though. I personally know several people that think they can write a good story when they clearly don't know the basic rules of English. They can get by in communication, but you couldn't really even call them skilled, let alone excellent.

Certainly basic rules of English are not as well known as one would hope, I don't disagree.

 

 

1) James Joyce spent over 15 years writing Finnegans Wake. Pretty sure he spent more time writing and developing his craft on that single work than anyone spends pursuing a Doctorate's. I'm not arguing you need a formal education, I'm arguing you simply need proper (self-taught or not) education to be an excellent programmer.

Okay, I don't disagree.

 

2) It sucks that being a script kiddie isn't, in any way, an achievement, compared to a hacker, but that's how it is. I suppose if your aspiration is to just crap out PHP, a proper education might not matter too much. However, someone will have to compensate, be it the system architect or your fellow coworkers.

Uhh okay. Not what I said at all, but okay.

 

3) Excellent programmers will have the foundation to pick up a native language, yes. That foundation includes all this "unnecessary" crap.

Not necessarily, that's my point.

 

I'm also frustrated about your hyperbolic statements. Writing a static analyzer or a compiler or an operating system all require a foundation of computer science and software engineering experience. Once you have this foundation, your task is pretty much an application of your experience. This goes from web applications to compilers, from video games to mission critical simulations. Seriously...

Let's try this another way.

 

Can you write a compiler without a solid foundation in computer science? No.

Can you write a php script that shows a record from a database without a solid foundation in computer science? Yes.

 

You can argue whether or not one should do any sort of programming without a solid cs foundation, but that doesn't change the fact that thousands of people do it every day, and some of them do it reasonably well.

[RpgGamer]

Whenever y'all go on about programming its like you start speaking a totally different language that makes me feel naked and afraid

[Hedgehog]

 

Oh that automata class sounds cool, I don't think we even offered a class like that

You don't have a class that teaches push down automata, context free grammars, and Turing machines? Those are all really important to creating compilers, and the two classes we had on it both liked to imply that CFGs were one of those things that every programmer had to know.

https://www.cise.ufl.edu/academics/undergrad/courses

 

I don't see it. It might be offered as CIS4930, which is for special topics. I don't know if there's a list of those courses anywhere

[RpgGamer]

Anyone trying to play Dirty Bomb on Steam sometime?

[Solemn]

I'm really high right now. 

[Veiva]

 

1) Can you write a compiler without a solid foundation in computer science? No.

2) Can you write a php script that shows a record from a database without a solid foundation in computer science? Yes.

 

You can argue whether or not one should do any sort of programming without a solid cs foundation, but that doesn't change the fact that thousands of people do it every day, and some of them do it reasonably well.

 

 

You don't need to go to school to do #2. I thought this discussion was about so-called useless CS courses... Seems I was wrong. It's about useless courses for random person who knows some PHP and SQL, which is a career path that doesn't require a degree.

 

In the case of this "typical web programmer," I would be cautious if they don't have a decent understanding of security (which would include cryptography) if they handle any data that's uniquely identifiable or even have an account system (and therefore, passwords). They'll probably store passwords as plain text... or a simple MD5 hash...

[obfuscator]

You don't need to go to school to do #2. I thought this discussion was about so-called useless CS courses... Seems I was wrong. It's about useless courses for random person who knows some PHP and SQL, which is a career path that doesn't require a degree.

Okay, fair enough. I didn't say those were useless, I said they were unnecessary for certain types of programming. Big difference.

 

In the case of this "typical web programmer," I would be cautious if they don't have a decent understanding of security (which would include cryptography) if they handle any data that's uniquely identifiable or even have an account system (and therefore, passwords). They'll probably store passwords as plain text... or a simple MD5 hash...

Sure. Certainly a lot of that is seen from under-educated programmers and that lack of knowledge has immediate, tangible, negative effects on the quality of their code. Not knowing what context-free grammar is won't have the same effect.

[Tesset]

 

 

Oh that automata class sounds cool, I don't think we even offered a class like that

You don't have a class that teaches push down automata, context free grammars, and Turing machines? Those are all really important to creating compilers, and the two classes we had on it both liked to imply that CFGs were one of those things that every programmer had to know.

https://www.cise.ufl.edu/academics/undergrad/courses

 

I don't see it. It might be offered as CIS4930, which is for special topics. I don't know if there's a list of those courses anywhere

Yeah, I don't see anything in there that sounds right.

 

Can I just say, though, that the first like 5 classes on that list are things I want to take? I'm really mad, I don't have enough interesting classes at my school, so I had to take random shit to fill up hours. Very jealous.

[Noxx]

Been playing more and more Smite. And the more i play, the more i want to play. It's been a long time since i've been this "addicted" to a game. I'm getting a bit better too. Started playing with Medusa and i think i'm starting to find my grove. Gotta go back to the BMW dealer later, but i almost don't feel like leaving my chair.

[Hedgehog]

 

 

 

Oh that automata class sounds cool, I don't think we even offered a class like that

You don't have a class that teaches push down automata, context free grammars, and Turing machines? Those are all really important to creating compilers, and the two classes we had on it both liked to imply that CFGs were one of those things that every programmer had to know.

https://www.cise.ufl.edu/academics/undergrad/courses

 

I don't see it. It might be offered as CIS4930, which is for special topics. I don't know if there's a list of those courses anywhere

Yeah, I don't see anything in there that sounds right.

 

Can I just say, though, that the first like 5 classes on that list are things I want to take? I'm really mad, I don't have enough interesting classes at my school, so I had to take random shit to fill up hours. Very jealous.

I think those are for our "digital arts and sciences" major, which is basically cs with a focus on the artistic stuff. It's a really cool degree, but very difficult

[Skull]

Been playing more and more Smite. And the more i play, the more i want to play. It's been a long time since i've been this "addicted" to a game. I'm getting a bit better too. Started playing with Medusa and i think i'm starting to find my grove. Gotta go back to the BMW dealer later, but i almost don't feel like leaving my chair.

I used to play pretty casually with my friends back in the day. I only played Arena, and only as Ymir.  I was pretty good at it though.  Haven't played in over a year though.

[Noxx]

 

Been playing more and more Smite. And the more i play, the more i want to play. It's been a long time since i've been this "addicted" to a game. I'm getting a bit better too. Started playing with Medusa and i think i'm starting to find my grove. Gotta go back to the BMW dealer later, but i almost don't feel like leaving my chair.

I used to play pretty casually with my friends back in the day. I only played Arena, and only as Ymir.  I was pretty good at it though.  Haven't played in over a year though.

 

I don't even remember who i used the when i played it in the Beta. I think maybe Ra or Anubis. But i've been using Medusa in Conquest for a good 20 or so matches and i think i've found my grove (or perhaps just playing against really bad players?). Over the past 10 games i've had 87 kills and 20 deaths and probably somewhere around 140 assists. I think that's pretty alright.

[Estonian dude]

I [bleep]ing like rowing.

The sensation of being on water in a small boat with three or eight other guys, working for the same goal and keeping precarious balance, trying not to tip over... Like seriously, we still have troubles if we try to row all at once, it is so on edge. Like being on a knife. Any sudden movement can tip the whole thing over.

It's a great workout aswell.