Today...

[Ember]

.

[muggiwhplar]

 

There's a lot of nuance in PUA literature that I think most people (both PUAs and people who condemn PUA) either lack the willingness or the ability to carefully examine. The fact that you used negging as an example suggests to me that you haven't really spent much time researching PUA-- like obfuscator said, nobody on this forum has said anything about negging within the last 10 years. That's a term that became popularized with Mystery in like 1998, and by 2008 nobody used it anymore both because it's unethical and because it's ineffective.

It was mentioned in the article you linked earlier.

 

 

And the author said so himself that he doesn't endorse them. If all you guys got from reading my essays here are "muggi and his sources recommend negging" then this discussion is hopeless because you guys are just cherrypicking

[RpgGamer]

We have so much discussion today we could have started a whole new thread but if like to toss some words in the ring:

 

@obfuscator

Rape culture is considerably more complex than I think you're giving credit too. No campaigning against rape won't stop the rapists of today, but changing the way people perceive situations can help prevent the creation of future rapists (ideally)

 

@major

I grew up in statistically the best educated area of my state. (South Jersey so, the stats dont include the north most counties) and drunk driving wasn't just normal it was practically expected. Perhaps we border some "deep woods" types, and I've seen my share of confederate flags but you can not claim that education has anything to do with the correlation of drunk driving.

 

Also worth mentioning that DUIs/DWIs are common in my area, but not as common as you'd expect

[obfuscator]

We have so much discussion today we could have started a whole new thread but if like to toss some words in the ring:

 

@obfuscator

Rape culture is considerably more complex than I think you're giving credit too. No campaigning against rape won't stop the rapists of today, but changing the way people perceive situations can help prevent the creation of future rapists (ideally)

rape culture is such a vague term that it effectively has no verifiable meaning. I can certainly agree that some things exist people might say constitute rape culture, but a whole bunch more are nonsense.

 

also *ideally* is the key word, and I'm not sure it's realistic. as long as people have sex drives, there will be rapists

[muggiwhplar]

We have so much discussion today we could have started a whole new thread but if like to toss some words in the ring:

 

@obfuscator

Rape culture is considerably more complex than I think you're giving credit too. No campaigning against rape won't stop the rapists of today, but changing the way people perceive situations can help prevent the creation of future rapists (ideally)

 

@major

I grew up in statistically the best educated area of my state. (South Jersey so, the stats dont include the north most counties) and drunk driving wasn't just normal it was practically expected. Perhaps we border some "deep woods" types, and I've seen my share of confederate flags but you can not claim that education has anything to do with the correlation of drunk driving.

 

Also worth mentioning that DUIs/DWIs are common in my area, but not as common as you'd expect

 

I wish one of the mods would create a new thread (or two/three) and move all the posts into there... sucks having to dig through a 2000+ page thread to find discussions like these in the future

[obfuscator]

we dont have any mods

[Ember]

.

[Hedgehog]

Drunk driving is super common everywhere. You might not notice, but go out for a walk at 2 am on a Friday and you'll see

[muggiwhplar]

 

 

 

There's a lot of nuance in PUA literature that I think most people (both PUAs and people who condemn PUA) either lack the willingness or the ability to carefully examine. The fact that you used negging as an example suggests to me that you haven't really spent much time researching PUA-- like obfuscator said, nobody on this forum has said anything about negging within the last 10 years. That's a term that became popularized with Mystery in like 1998, and by 2008 nobody used it anymore both because it's unethical and because it's ineffective.

It was mentioned in the article you linked earlier.

 

 

And the author said so himself that he doesn't endorse them. If all you guys got from reading my essays here are "muggi and his sources recommend negging" then this discussion is hopeless because you guys are just cherrypicking

 

I don't even know what negging is. I know that reading what you linked makes me feel like I should shower thoroughly.

 

 

Why?

[Bonez899]

we dont have any mods

Friends, TIF'ers, countrymen,

 

LEND ME YOUR EARS

I've come at a time of great discourse in our community, a time when TIF'er fights TIF'er and the today thread is divided. A time where this board, and its small but thriving community of OT seems to be relegated to a slow death forgot and condemned to a time of the past.

 

Yet I offer a cause we can all unite behind, a cause that is not right or wrong, but a cause that all OT'ers, nay the majority of this board can stand behind. RPG for mod.

 

In this lawless time where we may feel abandoned and forgotten, RPG is there. To offer comments of support, sense, or solid logic RPG is there. To not incense the situation, but instead carefully tend the flame of civil discussion RPG is there.

 

TIF'ers, I plead for you to unite behind me and my banner as I cry out to whatever gods remain listening to our board,

 

LET US HAVE A MOD, of the people, for the people, RPG!

[Ember]

.

[muggiwhplar]

 

 

I don't even know what negging is. I know that reading what you linked makes me feel like I should shower thoroughly.

 

Why?

 

Short list, because I'm on my way to bed and don't want to pull it up again:

Sex is something women allow men to have or that men earn from women.

Sex is all about men, and women are the gatekeepers who can be placated by filling a role and acting in a certain "manly" way that isn't necessarily in their nature.

Any individuality of the particular person sitting across the table from you is irrelevant, because women are all similar enough that they're pretty well interchangeable.

 

I think you're oversimplifying things and putting words in his/my mouth. This goes back to the nuances I talked about in a previous post today.

 

To concisely address your points:

 

1. Generally, yeah. There's a reason why I'm the one expected to make the first move and lead things along-- it's because I was born as a male. Until a significant number of women insist on assuming roles traditionally reserved for and expected of men, and vice versa, you have to operate under traditional expectations if you want to be in control of your dating life. Is that fair? Not really, but pretending that the world exists how you wish it would exist, rather than how it actually exists usually leads to unhappiness and a lack of success.

 

2. Disagree; both genders both have their own unique roles, expectations, desires, and priorities. Generally speaking, if you act outside of your expected role, your options will be narrowed and your experience will be more challenging. If you behave in a way which suggests you desire something you actually don't, your experience will be more challenging.

 

3. Every woman's different. But most women will react favorably to the three things I listed here, which are emphasized in the blog post you're criticizing. I don't think there's any women out there that would say, "I dislike men who dress well" or "I dislike men who are self-assured and confident" or "I dislike men who take care of their bodies." Or, at the very least, if such women exist, they're in the extreme minority to the point where it's safe to assume that a woman you're on a date with doesn't belong in that category.

[RpgGamer]

we dont have any mods

I suppose we could toss a sword in a pond and see who turns up?

 

@Arceus, check your PMs when you get a moment

[Ember]

.

[muggiwhplar]

I think you’re grasping at straws at this point by focusing on the negging and ignoring my other arguments as well as the overall point of the article. If he doesn’t neg, and doesn’t recommend negging, then you can’t argue that he’s endorsing it. I agree that he isn’t condemning them either though, however you seem to be issuing a false dichotomy here where you’re either endorsing or condemning; I’m arguing he doesn’t neg, doesn’t recommend negging, but also isn’t telling you not to neg. That’s neither endorsing nor condeming. Again, nuance. You’re viewing this as black and white when it’s more complicated than that.

 

Similarly, you seem to be confusing the fact that he’s referencing it as an example to prove his point, as opposed to writing a full blog post dedicated to “techniques” including negging, and how negging works and therefore everyone should learn how to do it, and here’s how to do it. Negging has never been a technique that any modern dating expert pushes.

 

The author doesn’t go into any further detail about negging because the article isn’t about negging; it was just used as an example to illustrate his point (which you seem to be avoiding discussing)

 

Regardless, you’re focusing too much attention on one minor part of the greater article, and you’re focusing on something which nobody on this board has even discussed until you guys read it in the article and decided to hone in on it rather than looking at the bigger picture as well as my other arguments.

[Ember]

.

[muggiwhplar]

Sounds like we're going to have to agree to disagree about what an "endorsement" is then. I don't agree that "it works" is an endorsement, given the context of the statement:

 

Though I personally do not follow the advice of “negs”, I do admit they can often work, specifically with very hot women (9s and 10s), but a guy new to the seduction community is often confused and even angered that actually insulting a woman a little bit will raise the odds of her having sex with you quickly.

 

He himself does not neg, and the fact that he says "I do admit..." makes it sound like he reluctantly concedes that they can be effective, despite the fact that they're unethical. To me, if he were endorsing negs, he would say, "Negging works, and not enough men utilize this technique. Now here's how to do it..."

 

Imagine if I said, "Though I personally do not own a firearm, I do admit they can often work if you want to murder someone, specifically a defenseless person." Does that mean I endorse murder or buying a firearm for illegal and malicious purposes?

 

I accused you of dodging the other discussion since you never responded to my points here and instead to chose to nitpick the negging thing.

[The Observer]

 

It exists in certain contexts such as, like you said, individual freedom (people know stealing is wrong, generally). However, there are instances like what I was referring to earlier (college parties)

where consent is seen as a "blurred line".

do you think consent is black and white in every scenario, practically speaking?

 

In what I stated, having consent being a part of teaching from a young age

(they were referring to consent with regards to other's peoples bodies), it is one of those concepts that will follow them later in life as it is a behavioural skill taught from a young age.

Keep in mind, this was done in consultation with experts in education and healthcare and was not done on a whim.

I agree, but don't think it's anything new - it's a basic thing you teach your children, along with "don't bite", and "don't pull hair".

 

Except not everyone teaches their children this. All you need is one person who is not taught it to cause issues. Similar to vaccination. All it takes is one to infect the rest.

 

And the thing is, that's absolutely true that it's not the same in every situation. That's why developing a baseline in earlier life will allow the nuances to develop. It's like any other skill. Even if it just adds that one extra step back to re-evaluate a situation, it's worth it.

[The Observer]

Also as a sidebar, I'm loving the new activity here. It's almost as if these boards are alive again.  :wub:

[obfuscator]

 

 

It exists in certain contexts such as, like you said, individual freedom (people know stealing is wrong, generally). However, there are instances like what I was referring to earlier (college parties)

where consent is seen as a "blurred line".

do you think consent is black and white in every scenario, practically speaking?

 

In what I stated, having consent being a part of teaching from a young age

(they were referring to consent with regards to other's peoples bodies), it is one of those concepts that will follow them later in life as it is a behavioural skill taught from a young age.

Keep in mind, this was done in consultation with experts in education and healthcare and was not done on a whim.

I agree, but don't think it's anything new - it's a basic thing you teach your children, along with "don't bite", and "don't pull hair".

 

Except not everyone teaches their children this. All you need is one person who is not taught it to cause issues. Similar to vaccination. All it takes is one to infect the rest.

 

And the thing is, that's absolutely true that it's not the same in every situation. That's why developing a baseline in earlier life will allow the nuances to develop. It's like any other skill. Even if it just adds that one extra step back to re-evaluate a situation, it's worth it.

 

people who are not teaching their children common sense and basic manners are probably screwing up their children beyond anything some light educational indoctrination can fix, especially when so much of it is nonsense. I don't mind teaching children about consent, but when it's accompanied by loaded terms like "rape culture" and "toxic masculinity", which it often is, that's a real problem

 

 

Also as a sidebar, I'm loving the new activity here. It's almost as if these boards are alive again.  :wub:

don't worry, it won't last

[Ember]

.

[Tesset]

To be clear, I brought up negging as an example of a PUA technique that was uncontroversially abusive, to specifically counter the point that PUAs and non-PUAs with the same success rate are not different.

[muggiwhplar]

If you ran a blog dedicated to teaching people to successfully commit murder and one of your posts included that line, I'd read it as an endorsement.

When I tell my students that I don't usually use speed loaders, but that they work great for people who have trouble loading magazines, I consider it an endorsement.

 

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

 

It seems like the idea of men consciously doing something "unnatural" in order to get laid, as opposed to being 100% "natural" or "being themselves" is what's leaving a bad taste in your mouth. Does that sound about right?

 

To be clear, I brought up negging as an example of a PUA technique that was uncontroversially abusive, to specifically counter the point that PUAs and non-PUAs with the same success rate are not different.

 

I appreciate the clarification

[obfuscator]

If you ran a blog dedicated to teaching people to successfully commit murder and one of your posts included that line, I'd read it as an endorsement.

When I tell my students that I don't usually use speed loaders, but that they work great for people who have trouble loading magazines, I consider it an endorsement.

 

 

when it's accompanied by loaded terms like "rape culture" and "toxic masculinity", which it often is, that's a real problem

Why?

Because these are people's opinions being taught as fact

[RpgGamer]

Would you rather they be taught that what you would consider to be "toxic masculinity" is acceptable and expected?

 

The flaw of course being that you have to have a definition for "toxic masculinity"

 

I'd say it lies somewhere between "boys don't cry" and "let's join a frat to bang sorority girls"