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ROW must be a placebo???


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#1
Merre
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Hey everyone,

I've been slaying alot lately again. After hitting the L85 I didn't feel like slaying alot anymore.
But since it's good cash and less boring than most skill I decided to get on and level again.
I'm halfway to L87 now and did like 20-30 tasks at Kuradal master.
It's way easy now to do greater demons or abby demons etc with the ferocious ring.
In the beginning I found it silly not to use ring of wealth but I soon noticed the extra hits u do make a huge difference.
I've never ever had a dragon drop and guess what: 5th task or so without ROW and I get a left shield part!
Isn't this just incredible??? I've killed tons of dust devils, fire giants and never gotten a d drop.

Now that I drop the row I get a d drop within 5 tasks??? I know everyone is gonna say 'it's just random' or 'you were just unlucky'...
Well that's just nonsense... *sells ROW and always use fero/slayer ring from now on*

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#2
Bauke
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You seem to lack any knowledge about statistics and probability.

#3
Peronix
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No, it's just such a negligible effect that you should be using fero ring anyway for faster kills and thus more drops and thus more of a chance for rares than RoW would ever give you.

#4
Sy_Accursed
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ROW isn't a placebo it jsut isn't that useful.

Basically the analogy is the drops are like roulette wheels

The common drop roulette wheels spins and has maybe 10 "numbers" it can land on that say go to next wheel
In this case the uncommon drop wheel spins this has say 2 "numbers" that send us to rare drops wheel
Then the rare drops wheel spins.

ROW increases the number of slots on the uncommon wheel that send us to the rare wheel.
The flaw HOWEVER is that the common, uncommon, rare wheels are solely for universal drops with "rare" drops being simply things like the big coin piles or rune piles monsters CAN drop.

Most of the drops considered rare by PLAYERS (eg gs shards, dragon items etc) belong to the Bonus Drops Wheel. This wheel ALWAYS spins alongside the common - rare wheel and has ALOT of blank spots, but also has these coveted drops like visage etc on it. This is why when you get these rare drops they are always with a normal drop eg u get visage AND a coin pile.

ROW does not effect the Bonus Drops Wheel so thus has no effect on what alot of people assume it does effect.

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#5
Merre
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Agreed, but if you slay till L86 without d drops and then u don't wear the ROW anymore due to better hits of FR, isn't it something to think about then if u suddenly do get a rare d drop + 2 r chains + 3 ferocious rings + 2 key halfs in 210 kills??? (updated)
Makes me wonder how much ROW actually helps :blink:

You seem to lack any knowledge about statistics and probability.


And you seem to miss the point of my topic. I wondered if others noticed the same, I didn't ask for a lowlife comment. "Help and advice" not "useless and arrogant reply"... :shame:

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#6
Bauke
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ROW isn't a placebo it jsut isn't that useful.

Basically the analogy is the drops are like roulette wheels

The common drop roulette wheels spins and has maybe 10 "numbers" it can land on that say go to next wheel
In this case the uncommon drop wheel spins this has say 2 "numbers" that send us to rare drops wheel
Then the rare drops wheel spins.

ROW increases the number of slots on the uncommon wheel that send us to the rare wheel.
The flaw HOWEVER is that the common, uncommon, rare wheels are solely for universal drops with "rare" drops being simply things like the big coin piles or rune piles monsters CAN drop.

Most of the drops considered rare by PLAYERS (eg gs shards, dragon items etc) belong to the Bonus Drops Wheel. This wheel ALWAYS spins alongside the common - rare wheel and has ALOT of blank spots, but also has these coveted drops like visage etc on it. This is why when you get these rare drops they are always with a normal drop eg u get visage AND a coin pile.

ROW does not effect the Bonus Drops Wheel so thus has no effect on what alot of people assume it does effect.

Aside from that, a N=1 does not say anything about how a ROW does or does not increase probability on a rare item. With extremely rare items, an extremely large sample size is needed to measure effects irregardless of what the exact mechanism is by which a rare drop is calculated. You'd need to try getting ~50 rare drops with and without ROW, for example. Then you'd be seeing some effects.

#7
Dire_Wolf
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Honestly i got a Shield left half without ROW also...

#8
Merre
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Honestly i got a Shield left half without ROW also...


That's my point. Certain drops are very rare, but most people seem to get these rare drops without ROW.
I heard it many times before people soloing KQ solo with life ring and getting a chain every 15 kills. When they duo with ROW they didn't get one in 9 days a row :blink:

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#9
Sy_Accursed
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ROW isn't a placebo it jsut isn't that useful.

Basically the analogy is the drops are like roulette wheels

The common drop roulette wheels spins and has maybe 10 "numbers" it can land on that say go to next wheel
In this case the uncommon drop wheel spins this has say 2 "numbers" that send us to rare drops wheel
Then the rare drops wheel spins.

ROW increases the number of slots on the uncommon wheel that send us to the rare wheel.
The flaw HOWEVER is that the common, uncommon, rare wheels are solely for universal drops with "rare" drops being simply things like the big coin piles or rune piles monsters CAN drop.

Most of the drops considered rare by PLAYERS (eg gs shards, dragon items etc) belong to the Bonus Drops Wheel. This wheel ALWAYS spins alongside the common - rare wheel and has ALOT of blank spots, but also has these coveted drops like visage etc on it. This is why when you get these rare drops they are always with a normal drop eg u get visage AND a coin pile.

ROW does not effect the Bonus Drops Wheel so thus has no effect on what alot of people assume it does effect.

Aside from that, a N=1 does not say anything about how a ROW does or does not increase probability on a rare item. With extremely rare items, an extremely large sample size is needed to measure effects irregardless of what the exact mechanism is by which a rare drop is calculated. You'd need to try getting ~50 rare drops with and without ROW, for example. Then you'd be seeing some effects.


It perfectly explains it.

The drops we as players consider rare are in the "bonus drops"
ROW affects the odds of you getting a rare drop from the normal drop tables.
Bonus drops are unaffected, therefore ROW is of no use in getting the drops we as players class as rare.

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#10
Bauke
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ROW isn't a placebo it jsut isn't that useful.

Basically the analogy is the drops are like roulette wheels

The common drop roulette wheels spins and has maybe 10 "numbers" it can land on that say go to next wheel
In this case the uncommon drop wheel spins this has say 2 "numbers" that send us to rare drops wheel
Then the rare drops wheel spins.

ROW increases the number of slots on the uncommon wheel that send us to the rare wheel.
The flaw HOWEVER is that the common, uncommon, rare wheels are solely for universal drops with "rare" drops being simply things like the big coin piles or rune piles monsters CAN drop.

Most of the drops considered rare by PLAYERS (eg gs shards, dragon items etc) belong to the Bonus Drops Wheel. This wheel ALWAYS spins alongside the common - rare wheel and has ALOT of blank spots, but also has these coveted drops like visage etc on it. This is why when you get these rare drops they are always with a normal drop eg u get visage AND a coin pile.

ROW does not effect the Bonus Drops Wheel so thus has no effect on what alot of people assume it does effect.

Aside from that, a N=1 does not say anything about how a ROW does or does not increase probability on a rare item. With extremely rare items, an extremely large sample size is needed to measure effects irregardless of what the exact mechanism is by which a rare drop is calculated. You'd need to try getting ~50 rare drops with and without ROW, for example. Then you'd be seeing some effects.


It perfectly explains it.

The drops we as players consider rare are in the "bonus drops"
ROW affects the odds of you getting a rare drop from the normal drop tables.
Bonus drops are unaffected, therefore ROW is of no use in getting the drops we as players class as rare.

But something like, lets say, a whip doesn't fall in the bonus category right? And then there's still the point that you can't compare probabilities without a decent sample size. Although it will not work on bonus items irregardless of a ROW, you can't just simply say something about probability in a situation stated in the first post. Although your post does indeed explain the mechanism, I'm saying it's more than just the mechanism. How you measure it is important as well.

#11
Merre
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Still when I hear certain people get like an average of a pair of d boots per task it makes me feel sad.
I've done 6-7 tasks there and not one boot drop...
I've done three tasks at abby demons now and farmed about 150 and not one whip...
That's why I wanna compare with other users to hear if I'm the only unlucky kid on the block :rolleyes:

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#12
bickers
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personally ive never used ROW for a long time you just may have been unlucky i never had a whip on task until i was level 90 slayer then i had 2 tasks of 3 whips and 1 task with 2 whips
before 90 i probably killed around 2k-3k with no whip just don't give up you will get good drops eventually.

#13
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It perfectly explains it.

The drops we as players consider rare are in the "bonus drops"
ROW affects the odds of you getting a rare drop from the normal drop tables.
Bonus drops are unaffected, therefore ROW is of no use in getting the drops we as players class as rare.

As always you make great points Paw, but for some reason i experience that wearing Ring of wealth gives more common rares (Godsword shards, Dragon boots, Rune full helm, Mystic bottom, Leaf-bladed sword, Rune boots, Dragon med at KBD) on the expense of other rares (Abyssal whip, Dark bow, Bandos hilt).

I know it sounds crazy, but i killed over 30,000 Dust devils without a Dragon chainbody (the amount have risen and STILL i have not received one). While a friend got not one but TWO in 2K-4K kills.

I will repeat it again:
Ring of wealth helps with common rares (look above for examples)

So my conclusion is:
Use Ring of wealth at monster that has many common rares.

#14
aspeeder
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Still when I hear certain people get like an average of a pair of d boots per task it makes me feel sad.
I've done 6-7 tasks there and not one boot drop...
I've done three tasks at abby demons now and farmed about 150 and not one whip...
That's why I wanna compare with other users to hear if I'm the only unlucky kid on the block :rolleyes:

The RoW is not a placebo, it just doesn't make enough of a difference to use over other rings, especially with the inception of MA imbued rings and the ferocious ring.

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#15
Sy_Accursed
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But something like, lets say, a whip doesn't fall in the bonus category right? And then there's still the point that you can't compare probabilities without a decent sample size. Although it will not work on bonus items irregardless of a ROW, you can't just simply say something about probability in a situation stated in the first post. Although your post does indeed explain the mechanism, I'm saying it's more than just the mechanism. How you measure it is important as well.


Yes it does.

That is why whenever u get a whip drop you get the 100% drop (ashes) a normal drop (usually a common one [coins or w/e]) AND a Whip

Its a weird thing and difficult to get you're head round at first but monsters "rare" drops under the drop system and that ROW applies too are in players term all pretty rubbish junk. Eg where a monster drops varying coin piles from 4gp - 500gp, 500gp = "rare" drop.

Where as all the drops that are in player terms rare, come under bonus drops and are totally separate from ROW

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#16
Cptbaker08
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But something like, lets say, a whip doesn't fall in the bonus category right? And then there's still the point that you can't compare probabilities without a decent sample size. Although it will not work on bonus items irregardless of a ROW, you can't just simply say something about probability in a situation stated in the first post. Although your post does indeed explain the mechanism, I'm saying it's more than just the mechanism. How you measure it is important as well.


Yes it does.

That is why whenever u get a whip drop you get the 100% drop (ashes) a normal drop (usually a common one [coins or w/e]) AND a Whip

Its a weird thing and difficult to get you're head round at first but monsters "rare" drops under the drop system and that ROW applies too are in players term all pretty rubbish junk. Eg where a monster drops varying coin piles from 4gp - 500gp, 500gp = "rare" drop.

Where as all the drops that are in player terms rare, come under bonus drops and are totally separate from ROW

Abbys don't drop a whip with coins. They drop them with ashes and charms, also with the abby head or clue if it gets dropped.
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#17
mister_moocky
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Yeah, Jagex has been lying all these years, the ROW doesn't do anything. Infact Jagex is actually run by lizard people. Who caused 9/11. And built the pyramids.
quit

#18
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I've never gotten a whip drop with a row....only without it. Killed around 3.6k abbys all togethor and and half with row and half without. 6 whip drops and all of them were in the second half of kills were i did not use row. 5 came from just killing them while not on task and the other 1 from task
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#19
Zaaps1
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I have always denied claims that the RoW is "useless" and that it is a "lie". It absolutely does make a difference.

But is that difference worth it? That question I must answer with a no. It is almost always better to use an MA ring, Fero Ring, etc.

#20
Merre
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Guess what: first task after abby demons was Spiritual mages.
I've done that task 7 times so far, never gotten d boots. I sold my ROW and after 141 kills I got a pair of d boots.
I won't discuss this any further but I'm holy convinced it's better to wear a Fero/berserker for the stats then wearing row which only makes the slightest difference!

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