Bank loans

[Saunamajuri]

Hey there, not long ago I read the Bank interest topic, and it gave me and idea of Bank loans.

 

What if you could loan money from banks and pay them back as large sums quickly or in smaller sums slower?

 

This could be really useful if you need money for certain money making method or supplies/armour/other stuff in general fast. You could choose how much you pay back, lets say, in a week. Maybe in smaller sums that takes longer or pay all/large sums, which obviously pays the loan quicker. If this is going to work, it must have some downsides also. Quick money is not cheap.

 

You must pay revenue for your loans. The amout of revenues in percents depends on the amount of money you loaned. Larger sums have bigger revenue, as much money usually means, that whatever you`re going to spend them, will yield even more money.

 

I havent decided yet what should be the max loan you could get. I`ll get to that later.

 

Tell us your opinions for this and remember to add reasons for them.

[Carl]

I moved this to the RuneScape Bugs & Suggestions section of the forum, as this isn't a discussion topic.

 

On Topic: I must say I do like the idea, however, I'm sure many problems would be met along the way. What if you don't pay back your loans? Is the bank going to take your house? ( :wink: )

[Dormado]

It would never work, people would start making numerous accounts just to take max loans with them and abandon them. Buying items from the ecenomy.

 

It would either have to have a exhange system - one should elave something of great value , and take a loan, or something level based.(dont know how that would work tho)

[Sephy_]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

[Saunamajuri]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

First players would receive a warning. if they dont pay the loan back, banks would take the money from their banks in cash or items. Then they can blame only themselves. Or they could even take furniture out of their house or stuff from their costume room. If this would happen, the bank should take more revenue as the loan was delayed. For this reason, the max amount of loan should not be dozens of millions.

[Saunamajuri]

It would either have to have a exhange system - one should elave something of great value , and take a loan, or something level based.(dont know how that would work tho)

I like this idea. If you are lower level, you couldnt loan millions, as lower leveled probably wouldnt need that much. or then just give an item as a guarantee for the loan.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

items as collateral seem like the only logical option, but for loan missed, cash is introduced into the economy, and an item is removed

inflation's bad enough as it is.

 

I honestly don't think I can think of a good way to implement this bank system

Unless you simply accept any number of fatal flaws in the plan and implement it anyways.

[Rock Hard]

we should be teaching kids to avoid relying on credit

 

such a dangerous mentality

[JoeDaStudd]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

First players would receive a warning. if they dont pay the loan back, banks would take the money from their banks in cash or items. Then they can blame only themselves. Or they could even take furniture out of their house or stuff from their costume room. If this would happen, the bank should take more revenue as the loan was delayed. For this reason, the max amount of loan should not be dozens of millions.

Make 1000 dummy F2P accounts loan the max F2P amount and trade it using the max F2P trade limit to x account.

Repeat for all 1000 accounts.

Forget about the 1000 accounts so debt collection has 0 effect.

 

Free money to anyone who wants it.

[Krampell]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

First players would receive a warning. if they dont pay the loan back, banks would take the money from their banks in cash or items. Then they can blame only themselves. Or they could even take furniture out of their house or stuff from their costume room. If this would happen, the bank should take more revenue as the loan was delayed. For this reason, the max amount of loan should not be dozens of millions.

Make 1000 dummy F2P accounts loan the max F2P amount and trade it using the max F2P trade limit to x account.

Repeat for all 1000 accounts.

Forget about the 1000 accounts so debt collection has 0 effect.

 

Free money to anyone who wants it.

Yes, and what's the max trade limit for f2p with new created character? 6k every 15 minute?

You would make money doing normal stuff in f2p faster then that.

[JoeDaStudd]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

First players would receive a warning. if they dont pay the loan back, banks would take the money from their banks in cash or items. Then they can blame only themselves. Or they could even take furniture out of their house or stuff from their costume room. If this would happen, the bank should take more revenue as the loan was delayed. For this reason, the max amount of loan should not be dozens of millions.

Make 1000 dummy F2P accounts loan the max F2P amount and trade it using the max F2P trade limit to x account.

Repeat for all 1000 accounts.

Forget about the 1000 accounts so debt collection has 0 effect.

 

Free money to anyone who wants it.

Yes, and what's the max trade limit for f2p with new created character? 6k every 15 minute?

You would make money doing normal stuff in f2p faster then that.

6k*1000=6m per 15 minutes.

Or 24m per 1 hour.

Hell even 100 accounts is over 2m per hour.

Now theres nothing in F2P which can achieve that which I'm aware of.

[Jehosaphat]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

First players would receive a warning. if they dont pay the loan back, banks would take the money from their banks in cash or items. Then they can blame only themselves. Or they could even take furniture out of their house or stuff from their costume room. If this would happen, the bank should take more revenue as the loan was delayed. For this reason, the max amount of loan should not be dozens of millions.

Make 1000 dummy F2P accounts loan the max F2P amount and trade it using the max F2P trade limit to x account.

Repeat for all 1000 accounts.

Forget about the 1000 accounts so debt collection has 0 effect.

 

Free money to anyone who wants it.

Yes, and what's the max trade limit for f2p with new created character? 6k every 15 minute?

You would make money doing normal stuff in f2p faster then that.

6k*1000=6m per 15 minutes.

Or 24m per 1 hour.

Hell even 100 accounts is over 2m per hour.

Now theres nothing in F2P which can achieve that which I'm aware of.

Uh, no. In f2p, the max you can receive every 15 minutes is what, 40k? And that's if the person you're trading with has been on your friendslist for a few months. So the max you could make off of this in f2p would be 160k an hour. And that's if you're willing to wait a few months....

 

And even if the receiving trade limit wasn't in place, I doubt you could trade with 1000 accounts in 15 minutes without a bot. And people would notice that you're botting then, so.....

[sees_all1]

I'm strongly against bank loans in runescape.

The average 'scaper has no idea about how the current real world financial system works, and the implications of adding in loans to a game.

 

Giving players the ability to arbitrarily create money will cause inflation.

I'm not sure how much you intend for the banks to loan out, but anything less than a million is near meaningless, and anything more than a million per player causes extreme and arbitrary inflation.

Look, starting from a new F2P account, I was able to legitly make 1 million GP within 48 hours of account creation. Making money in runescape is EASY.

 

Besides, what's the penalty for not paying your loan back? If its item removal then that's more inflation, or a convenient way to rid an account of junk (say hello to rwt?)

[PraetorDei]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

First players would receive a warning. if they dont pay the loan back, banks would take the money from their banks in cash or items. Then they can blame only themselves. Or they could even take furniture out of their house or stuff from their costume room. If this would happen, the bank should take more revenue as the loan was delayed. For this reason, the max amount of loan should not be dozens of millions.

Make 1000 dummy F2P accounts loan the max F2P amount and trade it using the max F2P trade limit to x account.

Repeat for all 1000 accounts.

Forget about the 1000 accounts so debt collection has 0 effect.

 

Free money to anyone who wants it.

No. Banks would require collateral. How much collateral would those 1000 dummy F2P accounts have? Zero. Thus no loans.

Guys, any problems you can come up with regarding this concept apply to the real world too -- and the solutions are similar to the real world solutions.

[sees_all1]

No. Banks would require collateral. How much collateral would those 1000 dummy F2P accounts have? Zero. Thus no loans.

Guys, any problems you can come up with regarding this concept apply to the real world too -- and the solutions are similar to the real world solutions.

 

And look at the mess the real world economy is in now - it all gets back to banks lending money.

 

 

Also, banks don't necessarily require collateral to loan money. Look at college loans. I can take out a loan for $40k to pay for my college expenses each and every year, with virtually no money or possessions to my name, and banks will grant it to me. I can go into $200k debt, not graduate college, and have to default.

It will hurt me in the future to - there is only one of me, so that's the extent I can screw up the bank. Runescape, I can create 1000 accounts, and abandon each one of them.

 

There's no place for loans in runescape.

[la la la]

What would happen if people wouldn't pay their loans back?

Your avatar... Final Fantasy... Red mage. Gah I want to play now.

 

This just wouldn't work. It would lead to massive inflation problems at release, then deflation problems, and so on and so forth.

[DrPaulLeet]

Also, this idea about taking your furniture would just mean free construction xp. You could take a loan, spend it on planks to make stuff in your house and then let jagex take it away.

[PraetorDei]

No. Banks would require collateral. How much collateral would those 1000 dummy F2P accounts have? Zero. Thus no loans.

Guys, any problems you can come up with regarding this concept apply to the real world too -- and the solutions are similar to the real world solutions.

 

And look at the mess the real world economy is in now - it all gets back to banks lending money.

 

 

Also, banks don't necessarily require collateral to loan money. Look at college loans. I can take out a loan for $40k to pay for my college expenses each and every year, with virtually no money or possessions to my name, and banks will grant it to me. I can go into $200k debt, not graduate college, and have to default.

It will hurt me in the future to - there is only one of me, so that's the extent I can screw up the bank. Runescape, I can create 1000 accounts, and abandon each one of them.

 

There's no place for loans in runescape.

 

But we aren't talking about student loans. In Runescape simply require collateral such that the amount borrowed has to equal the GE midpoint trading range for items. Additionally forbid loaning any items if by loaning such items it would reduce the players assets below the value of the loan collateral plus the loan value (e.g 2X loan value). Such loans would be blocked.

 

So -- no borrowing money on dummy accounts (they have no collateral)

No borrowing money with intent to default by "loaning" everything out to other accounts (loans would be blocked to prevent total asset value from falling below 2X outstanding loan value).

 

Fact is, such an idea would be useful for the same reason it is useful in the real world -- you borrow money to buy items to enable you to make MORE money more quickly than you could without the item. If, however, you borrow the money just to buy stuff to advance a skill -- well when you don't pay you find your account stripped of sufficient assets to repay the loan. A valuble lesson in itself.

[Saunamajuri]

Okay, so collateral item seems to be only solution. If one wants to get a cash, but doesnt want to sell his item(s), He can get bank loan. After the time has passed, He must pay the loan and revenue to bank too get his item(s) back. If this loan money was used wisely, you dont need to take loans in a while. If used only for skilling without getting anything back, then you are in trouble. Much like in a real life loan situation. You dont pay back, you dont get the item(s) back and revenue starts rising. After exceeding a certain limit, bank starts to take items from your bank. The money you pay to the bank disappears from the game.

[quelmotz]

Okay, so collateral item seems to be only solution. If one wants to get a cash, but doesnt want to sell his item(s), He can get bank loan. After the time has passed, He must pay the loan and revenue to bank too get his item(s) back. If this loan money was used wisely, you dont need to take loans in a while. If used only for skilling without getting anything back, then you are in trouble. Much like in a real life loan situation. You dont pay back, you dont get the item(s) back and revenue starts rising. After exceeding a certain limit, bank starts to take items from your bank. The money you pay to the bank disappears from the game.

 

You expect the money to still stay with the same guy? He'd have spent all the money, and unless there's some identification code for the money, you wouldn't be able to remove it from the game. Furthermore, how is it fair to take away say 500k from a guy who sold items to the guy who refused to pay back his loans?

 

I don't support this idea at all.

[Saunamajuri]

Okay, so collateral item seems to be only solution. If one wants to get a cash, but doesnt want to sell his item(s), He can get bank loan. After the time has passed, He must pay the loan and revenue to bank too get his item(s) back. If this loan money was used wisely, you dont need to take loans in a while. If used only for skilling without getting anything back, then you are in trouble. Much like in a real life loan situation. You dont pay back, you dont get the item(s) back and revenue starts rising. After exceeding a certain limit, bank starts to take items from your bank. The money you pay to the bank disappears from the game.

 

You expect the money to still stay with the same guy? He'd have spent all the money, and unless there's some identification code for the money, you wouldn't be able to remove it from the game. Furthermore, how is it fair to take away say 500k from a guy who sold items to the guy who refused to pay back his loans?

 

I don't support this idea at all.

This is similar to real life bank loans. You take them to get started. After that you can manage with the money you have made. Then you can pay it back. This idea is not meant to be a quick way to get money, so you can spend them all just for the sake of getting the item. It is simply a little help to get yourself started in money making.

 

What are you talking about? I never said that anyone else than the loan taker himself would have to pay anything. The money stays with the seller as normally. Loaner is the only one who is going to pay for his loan. You make it sound like, lets say, I buy bread from a store for 5 euros. Then when the payback date expires, the bank will take the money from the store owner. I hope you didnt mean this.

[sees_all1]

This is similar to real life bank loans. You take them to get started. After that you can manage with the money you have made. Then you can pay it back. This idea is not meant to be a quick way to get money, so you can spend them all just for the sake of getting the item. It is simply a little help to get yourself started in money making.

 

What are you talking about? I never said that anyone else than the loan taker himself would have to pay anything. The money stays with the seller as normally. Loaner is the only one who is going to pay for his loan. You make it sound like, lets say, I buy bread from a store for 5 euros. Then when the payback date expires, the bank will take the money from the store owner. I hope you didnt mean this.

 

There is still the problem of:

1) Getting rid of Junk

2) Free experience in crafting, prayer, construction, magic

3) Real World Trading

4) Buying items on Margin (in real life, this led to the Great Depression)

5) Hyper-Inflation due to an increase in demand

 

Explain to me how you could prevent the following scenarios:

 

1)

Player has 10M worth of junk in the bank. Player takes out a 10M loan, and blows it somehow (staking, PVP, etc.) Bank takes his 10M worth of junk, even though its street value is only 1M. Player consumes 10M of stuff in runescape when they should only have consumed 1M.

 

2)

Player has 10M worth of bones in the bank. Player takes out 10M loan, and buys 10M worth of bones. Player then gets 20M worth experience in prayer, and has nothing to give back to the bank.

 

3)

Botters / RWTers offer to buy all junk at GE value (10x more than street value). The do this by having macro'd junk of their own, and taking out loans equal to their amount of junk (GP they can freely trade away).

 

4)

Player has 50M in items, takes out a loan to buy a shiny GS. Next day Jagex introduces the mega-god-sword, which makes all GS obsolete. GS's quickly drop to 1M street value over night, then 1M GE value, and Player, who was relatively wealthy before, loses EVERYTHING.

 

5)

In all of the scenarios, items are leaving the game and GPs are entering the game. This means A HUGE INCREASE IN PRICE LEVELS (hyper inflation) for virtually no reason, and with no way to stabilize.

[Saunamajuri]

1)

Only gp is accepted, then. Once the revenue starts rising due to delay in paying back, bank starts taking some of your money and the amount keeps rising until you pay the loan. After that, you get your collateral item back.

 

2)

This scenario will leave the loaner broke, but as the revenue rises, the payment will be taken from his cash that he gets later.

 

3)

Answer number 1. Also, player must give a collateral item of the same value. More quest points means, that the collateral item can be worth more or less than the actual loan.

 

4)

That godsword is still a good weapon to get money with. Player can easily kill bosses or slay for money. Because, as I said before, these bank loans should only be intended for money making purposes. Like in real life.

 

5)

answer number 1 again.

[hohto]

Only gp is accepted, then. Once the revenue starts rising due to delay in paying back, bank starts taking some of your money and the amount keeps rising until you pay the loan. After that, you get your collateral item back.

 

What's the point of this? If I needed X amount of gp to borrow X+150% for example, what would happen to my old cash pile? Would I turn my 100m into 250m and still be only able to spend 150m immediately?

 

This scenario will leave the loaner broke, but as the revenue rises, the payment will be taken from his cash that he gets later.

 

What is "gets later"? Drops transfering to the "bank"? Money gotten through trades? Lets think about these. If it's money gotten through drops, even with some interest rate it would just help players on a longrun. That way all the small coin piles dropped by medium level monsters are "collected" for you instead of left to the ground. I'd happily do that with many slayer tasks for example. If it's the trade and money only, what stops us from using items as currency? It would just turn some items into "low value" mint cakes: why would people trade in money if it was automaticly sent away? I for example wouldn't mind getting 1m fire runes from a trade (just a random example to show the case) if I knew I could just give them away in the

 

Answer number 1. Also, player must give a collateral item of the same value. More quest points means, that the collateral item can be worth more or less than the actual loan.

 

How would price swings affect to this? If we look at santas for example, they've rosen (GE wise) by almost 50% within last month. How would this affect to your "credit"? What if it had been -50%? Why would I for example pay back my "debt" if my collateral item had become worth less at the streets? Also if you can give collateral items, what stops you from using junk again? I could imagine certain items turning into "collateral items" at the street markets. Plus what is the reason of point 1 ("only gp is accepted, then") if you have to supply a collateral item? I'd need some money AND an item that could be turned into money in order to get a loan?

 

That godsword is still a good weapon to get money with. Player can easily kill bosses or slay for money. Because, as I said before, these bank loans should only be intended for money making purposes. Like in real life.

 

That depends purely on the monster drops. If godswords for example turned into "new dragon meds", there would be one method less to make money with the current godswords. However I agree that risk is part of the debt.

 

Anyways, I'm personally totally against bank loans, or loans in general in RS. First of all, they are far too easy to abuse. Secondly, they put players into different categories and causes too big swings to the current economy. Here are few of my points:

* Who benefit from this the most if it forces us to give a collateral and/or backup money? Exactly, the ones with the most money. What does it offer to them? Exactly, more capital to invest. It would just rise the gap between the rich and the poor, especially those who have gotten their money through merchanting. The rising prices would just interfere those who skill and/or don't have money.

* Depending on the way it works in the end, it will be too easy to abuse. I could already think of methods such as replacing money's role with something else at the street trades. Earlier I used fire runes as one possibility, but the item itself doesn't really matter. The point is that it's something majority accept at the trades. For collateral items, I'd see that as a great way just to abuse price swings too.

* It would bring too much money to the game in one moment. Even if it had to be paid back later on, it would bring so much more money that the current prices would skyrocket. Again, who does this help and who doesn't it help? Exactly, it wouldn't at least help Adam Averagescaper. In my opinion we need more stability to the rs economy, even more than we currently have. Updates like this would just do the opposite.

* We'd need a proper way to punish people for not being their debts. However without too strict punishment methods, people would just find ways to live with the debt without even an intention to pay it back. Why would I for example payback hundreds of mils if I could cope without doing it? If the punishments were too strict, it would just drive peple away from RS. If it just reclaimed your items, what would I do in order to pay back the rest? Do godwars with virtually no gear? If i just reclaimed money, why wouldn't I turn my money into items just before the event to happen?

* How would this really help majority of the players? If the demand of godswords for example rose due the fact that more people could afford them, we all know what would happen to their prices. Seems like a zero sum play, or even worse as it would bring in risks too. Now people have to work hard to get their GSes, but at least they don't have similar risks. If you could loan money, you'd still have to work hard due the rosen prices BUT you would have the debt risk.

 

If I wanted to encourage people to work for money, I'd rise the loan/borrow gap a lot. I for example don't have a problem handing out my items to my friends, but I hate the fact that I can only give one at a time. This makes it harder to get certain items to your own use as the gap limits your choices. With max of 5 items per person, you wouldn't need to look for people who have a whip AND who aren't letting others to use their gs/claws/fury/phat, you could just look for someone who has a whip. Increased amount of possibilities mean more use. Same time the demand of bought godswords would drop, meaning people would get them faster; more abilities to make capital with the borrowed item and lower price due decreased demand for having your very own and increased supply from getting them with someone else's weapons.

[Saunamajuri]

Fine, I give up then.