Rune crossbow, really the best?

[Grimy_Bunyip]

aldo as the bow degrades the range str stays at 70 right?

no, ranged str goes down by 2 each degradation

[TheAncient]

Broad Bolts came out years after the Crossbow update.

 

And also, with the new Longbow Sight, the Magic Longbow outclasses the Crystal Longbow in everything except power.

 

and speed, right? cbow is 5speed, longbow is 4speed.

 

the only real use for sighted mage longbow is long-range sniping in pvp. its range is ridiculous (as long as dark bow) apparently.

 

also, i just don't want to put up with switching 2 cbows. just seems like a hassle. it also protects over anything.

[Krampell]

Obviously you're gonna get better results with rune darts compared to broad bolts, but only when you're in kuradal's dungeon.

Only reason is because the ferocious ring and the speed of the darts.

If you train outside you'll see that broad bolts is much better.

[bedman]

dark beasts have much higher defence, so I guess you can test again on gargs. By the look of it, MSB should be better than cry bow

Actually, I was hitting very very accurate with that magic shortbow. I'm pretty sure that even with darts I would still hit very well, making darts still the best there.

 

Obviously you're gonna get better results with rune darts compared to broad bolts, but only when you're in kuradal's dungeon.

Only reason is because the ferocious ring and the speed of the darts.

If you train outside you'll see that broad bolts is much better.

 

I understand that, and that's why I said darts were unsurprisingly the winner. What surprised me though is how well a crystal bow performs. It's only 1 bar faster (I think) than rune crossbow (so it's not affected *that* much), has the same accuracy, doesn't need ammo and lets you wear soul wars cape. It's really not the outdated weapon people make it out to be.

 

It definitely makes the bow more appealing without that awful flaw of the degrading stats. =/

(I know it was good so many years ago, but it's just outdated now)

 

I will surely try out the crystal bow more now. I'm inclined to think that it will perform at least as well, if not better than broad bolts outside of kuradal's dungeon too. I also like how easy it is to work with. No ammo hassle and an extreme range.

 

@Morionic: you dps sheet is quite interesting, but these things are entirely theoretic, right? When really training with it, there are so many variables that can altar the theoretical values. That's why indeed my tests were way too short, and way to low in number, I admit that :-). But still, the difference were pretty huge, not just 3k xp or something.

[UserOnRS]

For the spreadsheet adamant knives should be there instead of rune darts, they have the same stats and are a lot cheaper.

 

No suprise with the tests though really except I wonder why noone uses MSB anymore.

[TheAncient]

oh and sseli, seriously who slays with diamond bolts, not a very valid test, and if it was you could then just add in drag darts and rune knives since they too are slightly expensive but even better than what he teseted

 

In the rare occassions that I'd use range for slayer, and against tasks with high defense, I'd use diamond bolts. Yes they're really expensive but I and a lot of other MHers can afford it.

[Bouwzie]

Lol at the people thinking the crystal bow trick is bug abuse :lol:

[qeltar]

All tests were done while using overload potions and the eagle eye prayer. These were the results (10-20 min of ranging with each). 10-20 minutes is pretty short, so the results should be taken with a grain of salt. However, the differences are big enough IMO (both in raw data and perception while ranging) to make some conclusions.

I'm sorry,but they really aren't.

 

You need to do more testing, and on more monsters. I think you'll find that broad bolts are *still* the best option, even in Kuradal's dungeon, which is one reason why the entire ranging skill has been unbalanced by crossbows.

 

The only things consistently faster than broad bolts are insanely expensive (diamond bolts, Karil's, etc.)

[D Jay99]

All tests were done while using overload potions and the eagle eye prayer. These were the results (10-20 min of ranging with each). 10-20 minutes is pretty short, so the results should be taken with a grain of salt. However, the differences are big enough IMO (both in raw data and perception while ranging) to make some conclusions.

I'm sorry,but they really aren't.

 

You need to do more testing, and on more monsters. I think you'll find that broad bolts are *still* the best option, even in Kuradal's dungeon, which is one reason why the entire ranging skill has been unbalanced by crossbows.

 

The only things consistently faster than broad bolts are insanely expensive (diamond bolts, Karil's, etc.)

Yeah because rune darts being 28% better in that test is all because of human error etc, it's way more likely that broad bolts are better anyway!

[qeltar]

All tests were done while using overload potions and the eagle eye prayer. These were the results (10-20 min of ranging with each). 10-20 minutes is pretty short, so the results should be taken with a grain of salt. However, the differences are big enough IMO (both in raw data and perception while ranging) to make some conclusions.

I'm sorry,but they really aren't.

 

You need to do more testing, and on more monsters. I think you'll find that broad bolts are *still* the best option, even in Kuradal's dungeon, which is one reason why the entire ranging skill has been unbalanced by crossbows.

 

The only things consistently faster than broad bolts are insanely expensive (diamond bolts, Karil's, etc.)

Yeah because rune darts being 28% better in that test is all because of human error etc, it's way more likely that broad bolts are better anyway!

If by "etc" you mean "small sample size", then yes -- rune darts showing as 28% better is all because of "human error etc."

 

The exact method the testing was done by also matters. Did the tester test elapsed time or only the actual time from when combat began to ended on each individual monster? Etc. Makes a big difference.

 

I've done similar tests on various monsters in Kuradal's dungeon and found virtually no difference with addy knives / rune darts (which are basically the same) compared to broad bolts -- except wasting a lot of money. And outside Kuradal's? No contest.

 

As for the crystal bow, it's comparable to the others when nearly full, and nearly as bad as using rune javelins when down a lot.

[bedman]

All tests were done while using overload potions and the eagle eye prayer. These were the results (10-20 min of ranging with each). 10-20 minutes is pretty short, so the results should be taken with a grain of salt. However, the differences are big enough IMO (both in raw data and perception while ranging) to make some conclusions.

I'm sorry,but they really aren't.

 

You need to do more testing, and on more monsters. I think you'll find that broad bolts are *still* the best option, even in Kuradal's dungeon, which is one reason why the entire ranging skill has been unbalanced by crossbows.

 

The only things consistently faster than broad bolts are insanely expensive (diamond bolts, Karil's, etc.)

That's why I made this topic, to discuss it. My results are very incomplete and perhaps not very accurate, so I made this thread to see what other people have found about it. However, like D Jay said, human errors and whatnot can account for some differences, but 28% is quite a lot.

 

@ Qeltar: IMO testing just "in combat" time is not a good way of testing, since these tests dont reflect "in use" conditions. With fast and short range weapons like darts for instance, you are far more likely to lose an attack turn here and there, when attacking new monsters or picking up a drop. Also, the crystal bow had a slight advantage that you never have to pick up some arrows that your accumulator leave behind. I'm definitely gonna do some more tests when I find some time, but I'm pretty sure that broad bolts aren't as good you make them out to be.

(ps: just used some darts on dark beasts: lots of zeroes, not recommended)

[Guthorm]

Aww, when I clicked on the topic I was actually hoping for somebody to do a comparison between cbow and sighted longbows on tanks. I am interested to know if the sighted longbow is viable in wars and sniping and such. Ah well.

[timmmmm83]

Good job, interesting to see the results.

 

Cyrstal bow (10)

108k gp/h

This is only true if you are at the lowest recharge cost. It starts at 900k/bow. = 540k/hour for the first bow

[qeltar]

@ Qeltar: IMO testing just "in combat" time is not a good way of testing, since these tests dont reflect "in use" conditions. With fast and short range weapons like darts for instance, you are far more likely to lose an attack turn here and there, when attacking new monsters or picking up a drop.

Not really sure what you mean here about losing attacks and so forth.

 

The problem with elapsed time testing is that it introduces a whole bunch of variables into the mix -- how much time you spend (if any) picking up drops, where the monsters are when you attack them (since they move around), how far away you are during combat, etc.

 

As for the 28%, you'd be surprised. I did a series of tests comparing two weapons and found wild fluctautions between test runs. The RuneScape RNG is pwnage. ;)

[ghjkl]

Darts are the best DPS even if they are outside kurada's so its obvious that they are better for low defense monsters.

[DarkDude]

Still seems strange to me to see people discussing using ranged for "normal" killing. Think I'm still stuck in the mindset of ranged is only useful for bosses and killing things in cages :P.

 

It is good to see that there are multiple ways to train with ranged to be honest, but as others have said the testing isn't anywhere near enough to draw any conclusions

[bedman]

@ Qeltar: IMO testing just "in combat" time is not a good way of testing, since these tests dont reflect "in use" conditions. With fast and short range weapons like darts for instance, you are far more likely to lose an attack turn here and there, when attacking new monsters or picking up a drop.

Not really sure what you mean here about losing attacks and so forth.

 

The problem with elapsed time testing is that it introduces a whole bunch of variables into the mix -- how much time you spend (if any) picking up drops, where the monsters are when you attack them (since they move around), how far away you are during combat, etc.

 

As for the 28%, you'd be surprised. I did a series of tests comparing two weapons and found wild fluctautions between test runs. The RuneScape RNG is pwnage. ;)

I mean that while picking up a drop, you can lose an attack turn, or you can lose time by running towards a gargoyle (with darts, crystal bow covers the whole room). You are right about new variables coming in, but with ranging these are pretty minimal, since you never have to run towards a monster. I did pick up some drops, but made sure I wouldn't lose an attack turn. Perhaps I should do some more tests where I don't pick up anything.

[Perakp]

Broad bolts were the obvious choice when they were ~60gp ea, now it's not so obvious. The crystal bow's price always stays the same, so it may become better over the years if inflation continues.

I'd be interested to see how much better the chaotic crossbow is compared to old ranged weapons.

[atestarossa]

I think the defence of the monster has a lot to say. Against greater demons in Kuradal's dungeon, then I'd say that knifes (or darts, I've actually never used those) would beat a rune crossbow, simply because you'll practically never will miss. The only problems is that picking up stuff/moving is hard to do without loosing an attack turn (luckily not as severe as loosing a turn with a crossbow), and that you'll have to run slightly more to get within the attack range.

 

But at once you're fighting a creature that have a little more defence, then knifes and darts would probably miss too much to ace a crossbow with broad/addy bolts.

 

Btw, I haven't tested my xp rates on anything but greaters, as I still melee most things in the dungeon. And I don't have my own computer here either, so I don't have the rates I've got through 5-6 tasks worth of ranging. I'll see if I find them when I get home again :)

[Grimy_Bunyip]

If by "etc" you mean "small sample size", then yes -- rune darts showing as 28% better is all because of "human error etc."

 

The exact method the testing was done by also matters. Did the tester test elapsed time or only the actual time from when combat began to ended on each individual monster? Etc. Makes a big difference.

 

I've done similar tests on various monsters in Kuradal's dungeon and found virtually no difference with addy knives / rune darts (which are basically the same) compared to broad bolts -- except wasting a lot of money. And outside Kuradal's? No contest.

 

As for the crystal bow, it's comparable to the others when nearly full, and nearly as bad as using rune javelins when down a lot.

i still think we'd be best off counting the # of attacks to kill, since we know each attack is a set number of game ticks.

[bedman]

If by "etc" you mean "small sample size", then yes -- rune darts showing as 28% better is all because of "human error etc."

 

The exact method the testing was done by also matters. Did the tester test elapsed time or only the actual time from when combat began to ended on each individual monster? Etc. Makes a big difference.

 

I've done similar tests on various monsters in Kuradal's dungeon and found virtually no difference with addy knives / rune darts (which are basically the same) compared to broad bolts -- except wasting a lot of money. And outside Kuradal's? No contest.

 

As for the crystal bow, it's comparable to the others when nearly full, and nearly as bad as using rune javelins when down a lot.

i still think we'd be best off counting the # of attacks to kill, since we know each attack is a set number of game ticks.

Then your results will be very theoretical, perhaps too theoretical? While it's nice to leave out all variables, when training "for real", you WILL have those variables. And due to the nature of some of the methods, some will be effected worse by the variables than others (with a crystal bow for instance it's easier to train in optimal conditions, than with darts, where you have to pick up darts a lot and run towards monsters).

 

That being said, more accurate and just more tests in general should be done yeah

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Then your results will be very theoretical, perhaps too theoretical? While it's nice to leave out all variables, when training "for real", you WILL have those variables. And due to the nature of some of the methods, some will be effected worse by the variables than others (with a crystal bow for instance it's easier to train in optimal conditions, than with darts, where you have to pick up darts a lot and run towards monsters).

 

That being said, more accurate and just more tests in general should be done yeah

it's not too theoretical

you're supposed to remove variables you have no control over when you're performing tests

nobody really cares about your performance in between kills, since ultimately you control

 

ultimately we're testing the WEAPONS, not the person and the weapons

someone might be better at handling the firing rate of bronze knives than another player

That shouldnt be reflected in your experiment

[qeltar]

If by "etc" you mean "small sample size", then yes -- rune darts showing as 28% better is all because of "human error etc."

 

The exact method the testing was done by also matters. Did the tester test elapsed time or only the actual time from when combat began to ended on each individual monster? Etc. Makes a big difference.

 

I've done similar tests on various monsters in Kuradal's dungeon and found virtually no difference with addy knives / rune darts (which are basically the same) compared to broad bolts -- except wasting a lot of money. And outside Kuradal's? No contest.

 

As for the crystal bow, it's comparable to the others when nearly full, and nearly as bad as using rune javelins when down a lot.

i still think we'd be best off counting the # of attacks to kill, since we know each attack is a set number of game ticks.

Yes, that would be more accurate. Unfortunately, it's also significantly more work -- more than I'm willing to do, personally.

[Profins]

You are right that more tests should be done, and also outside kuradal's dungeon. Diamond (e)'s are nice, but I was more testing for every day training ammo, not the boss hunting ammo, even though even there crystal bow might be quite good. That's why karil's crossbow isn't an option either (would cost too much) for normal training. I'm also pretty sure that sighted longbow is gonna be trash. Crystal bow and broad bolts were already insanely accurate. Even darts were very accurate actually. But who knows, on mith drags or something perhaps...

 

crystal bow trick: It degraded about every 10 min, so it's easy to time, especially if you use overloads.

Yet you tested with rune arrows and darts, which frankly are not the best for every-day use. Try either adamant arrows/darts or rune bolts.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Yes, that would be more accurate. Unfortunately, it's also significantly more work -- more than I'm willing to do, personally.

really? i'd find the pressure of having to time the start and ends of kills to be a little much