Flashback 2005. The skills in RuneScape were always well-defined. We had specific non-combat skills and combat skills, each being about equal in merit allowing you to either enter the game a skiller, a killer or both without worrying on capital. Either were roughly equally profitable, allowing the user to take a route of the extremeties of both and coming out on top.

Then, things shifted...

 

The one preferring combat got his biggest perk with the coming of God Wars Dungeon in 2007. Combat was instantly propelled to a top-money making method of playing, akin to only the finest of Runecrafters - the former big daddies of RuneScape. And it didn't end there, with the shift increasing to combat and the overall wealth of combaters increased and allowed them to spend even more on the next new batch of equipment received from even stronger bosses. The combater's life is going well.

 

On the flipside, we have the skiller, who isn't as lucky. With the coming of Achievement capes, the interest in getting 99s, previously just a number, peaked. People wanted those 99s to get those capes. Badly. So badly, in fact, that all of the production skills bar Runecrafting got costly. The second slap in the face is the same as what made combaters wealthy - the release of high-end equipment drops. Smithing, crafting and fletching quickly became useless skills other than for show.

 

 

 

The shift is so extreme now, that conventional skilling methods simply cannot outweigh against combat's vast sources of money. Pure skillers are now largely forced to do either menial chores for their income, or focus on a few gathering skills to scrape in the cash.

We've now hit a point where probably over half the skills have advanced to the point of being quisessentially useless. Only meriting training for its cape, not for its benefits.

 

Jagex, noticing the decreased interest in skills thought of a way to combat this somehow. One skill in particular, and one to a lesser extent have been revived by a simple principle; tying the skill to combat. Herblore, previously a beautiful example of how to make a skill utterly useless, was reinvigorated with the release of extreme potions. Firemaking, on the other hand, became near vital for Rangers who wanted to tap the vast powers of the Dwarven handcannon.

 

Now, the revive of Herblore was met with a lot of protest from the PvP community. "Herblore isn't a combat skill, if you're tying it into combat it should be added to your combat skill". A good point. Yet still, the interest in Herblore peaked. Herblore is now on the minds of the best of combaters - you can't be the best without spending money on Herblore nowadays.

 

And a very interesting idea too. If we look at how combat is leading the market, how can we make a skill attractive again easily? - give it combat bonuses. The idea has been suggested many times before. "Smithing should supply untradeable armours", "Firemaking could be used to set your weapons on fire for combat bonuses", etc. However, they received as much praise as they did critiscism. They aren't combat skills, combat should not be their main intent.

 

So I ask of you, Tip.it, what do YOU think? Should non-combat skills be connected to combat, homogenising the classes of skills. Should they be allowed or not in PvP? Or should we find a way to draw interest to skills without necessitating a shift to combat?

Yes, I love the non-tradeable aspects of herblore and all the new herblore habitat non-tradeables.

Its a great way to take the focus away from RWT and merchants and give it back to players who play the game.

I think crafting, smithing, fletching should be next on the list.

This is the only way in which I approve of Jagex making runescape more like WOW.

No. Skills and combat should be kept separate, for people with a well rounded character should be able to crap all over a player whose whole goal in life is to kill.

Would've been nice if it required a high smithing lvl to assemble a godsword, or a high crafting lvl to create armadyl armor

I think the skills should be mixed and it would make killing a lot more interesting (both in PvE and PvP). I think one of the reasons why I dislike killing so much in RuneScape is that it's so boring. Because RuneScape has no individual combat skills (I mean like specific "moves"), all you do is click once and WATCH your character fight. There is no further engagement and that takes the difficulty and diversity out of the game. So one option to make fights more diverse is to involve other skills. That way there would be more options for what unique abilities/equipment your opponent will possess.

I think the skills should be mixed and it would make killing a lot more interesting (both in PvE and PvP). I think one of the reasons why I dislike killing so much in RuneScape is that it's so boring. Because RuneScape has no individual combat skills (I mean like specific "moves"), all you do is click once and WATCH your character fight. There is no further engagement and that takes the difficulty and diversity out of the game. So one option to make fights more diverse is to involve other skills. That way there would be more options for what unique abilities/equipment your opponent will possess.

Do Dangerous PvP. That's anything but boring. Don't say combat is boring without being sufficient enough to even PK properly.

I do agree that skills ought to be mixed..

 

However the way jagex went with herblore isn't to my liking: first (till 85) it doesn't add anything to your "combat possibilities" and than suddenly it adds a lot.

 

Also I'd like to see more things like:

you require lvl X to make something.

and 0.95 * X to use it.

 

That way you can't "buy" items and hence ignore the skill. Yet for those who really like the skill there is a point in doing the skill for the skill's-sake. (and it might be profitable to make the items).

I think the skills should be mixed and it would make killing a lot more interesting (both in PvE and PvP). I think one of the reasons why I dislike killing so much in RuneScape is that it's so boring. Because RuneScape has no individual combat skills (I mean like specific "moves"), all you do is click once and WATCH your character fight. There is no further engagement and that takes the difficulty and diversity out of the game. So one option to make fights more diverse is to involve other skills. That way there would be more options for what unique abilities/equipment your opponent will possess.

Do Dangerous PvP. That's anything but boring. Don't say combat is boring without being sufficient enough to even PK properly.

I'm talking about combat in general, not necessarily just PKing. So knowing what I do about the combat system, I can say that the combat system is boring.

I think the skills should be mixed and it would make killing a lot more interesting (both in PvE and PvP). I think one of the reasons why I dislike killing so much in RuneScape is that it's so boring. Because RuneScape has no individual combat skills (I mean like specific "moves"), all you do is click once and WATCH your character fight. There is no further engagement and that takes the difficulty and diversity out of the game. So one option to make fights more diverse is to involve other skills. That way there would be more options for what unique abilities/equipment your opponent will possess.

Do Dangerous PvP. That's anything but boring. Don't say combat is boring without being sufficient enough to even PK properly.

I'm talking about combat in general, not necessarily just PKing. So knowing what I do about the combat system, I can say that the combat system is boring.

That's a heavily biased point of view, considering you have no where near the whole experience of Combat. But, okay.

Ooo I think it would be interesting, but in the end I like it how it is right now. Could just be that I don't really like massive changes in Runescape, but I guess I could get used to most things.

I think the skills should be mixed and it would make killing a lot more interesting (both in PvE and PvP). I think one of the reasons why I dislike killing so much in RuneScape is that it's so boring. Because RuneScape has no individual combat skills (I mean like specific "moves"), all you do is click once and WATCH your character fight. There is no further engagement and that takes the difficulty and diversity out of the game. So one option to make fights more diverse is to involve other skills. That way there would be more options for what unique abilities/equipment your opponent will possess.

Do Dangerous PvP. That's anything but boring. Don't say combat is boring without being sufficient enough to even PK properly.

I'm talking about combat in general, not necessarily just PKing. So knowing what I do about the combat system, I can say that the combat system is boring.

That's a heavily biased point of view, considering you have no where near the whole experience of Combat. But, okay.

And who's to say your view isn't PvP biased...

 

I'd love to see more skills tied into combat. It would definately breath new life into underused skills, much like what happened to Herblore

I'm all for the integration of combat into non-combat skills, as well as creating more synergy between skills. Runescape has too much potential that's not being put to use. Herblore was an excellent step in the right direction, and I'd love to see other skills follow suit.

Those who gain lots of money via MHing and slaying do so because they've put their (virtual) lives on the line for it. They run the risk of death, and are richly rewarded for success. On the lower end of the spectrum, those who combat Flesh Crawlers will be lucky to make 100K per hour.

 

On Smash World we call this risk vs reward. I could carry on racking up damage with TL's SHDA (very low risk, no chance of a KO), or I could go for the jugular; SH -> F-air or SH/Dodge -> Z-air w/DI towards opponent -> SH -> N-air. If I don't hit, I'm almost certainly giving initiative to the opponent; if I hit, he's dead no questions asked. The skill is deciding whether the chance of receiving the reward is worth the chance of conceding that risk, weighing up those if's, but's and maybe's. Regrettably, split second decision making wasn't something I was ever very good at, which probably explains my poor performances in beat-em-ups and FPS, and relatively good ability in racing games and flight simulators, but understanding the concept isn't hard.

 

The problem is, no such spectrum exists for risk vs reward in the skilling world. The risk:reward ratio in current skilling acitivities doesn't come close to the conventional ways of making money via combat. There needs to be a new activity that promises lots of profit via skilling, but runs a significant risk of death. For level 3s, maybe they can buy an item that protects them, but halves their potential for making profit, so as not to remove the incentive for training combat completely.

 

Then again, you could argue the only way to introduce risk of death into skilling is to involve combat somehow, since LPs are directly linked to combat, however much pure skillers want to deny this. As Tripsis said before, the near-total absense of real-life skill in the RuneScape combat system doesn't particularly help things; risk only becomes a real concept rather than a statistical one when real skills are being involved and not just mathematical probabilities and max hit calculations.

I would love to see, for example, high runecrafting levels being required for a series of 'essence' spells which save runes, for example. Or skills otherwise being tied in with combat. I wouldn't like to see a very direct link as in agility = combat speed, but generally making agility useful beyond running (afaik run energy is rarely an issue in most kinds of pvp) would make perfect sense, for example.

I would love to see, for example, high runecrafting levels being required for a series of 'essence' spells which save runes, for example. Or skills otherwise being tied in with combat. I wouldn't like to see a very direct link as in agility = combat speed, but generally making agility useful beyond running (afaik run energy is rarely an issue in most kinds of pvp) would make perfect sense, for example.

 

 

That would actually be an excellent idea if implemented with balance in mind.

 

Great idea :P

They could implement a way to make extreme potions at lower levels but with a very low success rate. I would think it would be pretty fair if a player that wants an extreme potion (or any other "untradeable" potion) to have to use and fail from 10 to 25 times with a second ingredient. People would be on the same playing field but the difference would be in the cost of using those pots. If a single extreme attack potion could cost up to 50K, I let you guys do the math for an Overload...

 

That way, everyone gets to use them, but the higher skiller gets the cash advantage on the long run.

I'm all for tying non-combat skills into combat.

 

But we need more than just untradable combat boosts from skills, that just biases the game more towards combat. It would be nice to see some more profitable skilling methods.

Flashback 2005. The skills in RuneScape were always well-defined. We had specific non-combat skills and combat skills, each being about equal in merit allowing you to either enter the game a skiller, a killer or both without worrying on capital. Either were roughly equally profitable, allowing the user to take a route of the extremeties of both and coming out on top.

Then, things shifted...

 

The one preferring combat got his biggest perk with the coming of God Wars Dungeon in 2007. Combat was instantly propelled to a top-money making method of playing, akin to only the finest of Runecrafters - the former big daddies of RuneScape. And it didn't end there, with the shift increasing to combat and the overall wealth of combaters increased and allowed them to spend even more on the next new batch of equipment received from even stronger bosses. The combater's life is going well.

 

On the flipside, we have the skiller, who isn't as lucky. With the coming of Achievement capes, the interest in getting 99s, previously just a number, peaked. People wanted those 99s to get those capes. Badly. So badly, in fact, that all of the production skills bar Runecrafting got costly. The second slap in the face is the same as what made combaters wealthy - the release of high-end equipment drops. Smithing, crafting and fletching quickly became useless skills other than for show.

 

 

 

The shift is so extreme now, that conventional skilling methods simply cannot outweigh against combat's vast sources of money. Pure skillers are now largely forced to do either menial chores for their income, or focus on a few gathering skills to scrape in the cash.

We've now hit a point where probably over half the skills have advanced to the point of being quisessentially useless. Only meriting training for its cape, not for its benefits.

 

Jagex, noticing the decreased interest in skills thought of a way to combat this somehow. One skill in particular, and one to a lesser extent have been revived by a simple principle; tying the skill to combat. Herblore, previously a beautiful example of how to make a skill utterly useless, was reinvigorated with the release of extreme potions. Firemaking, on the other hand, became near vital for Rangers who wanted to tap the vast powers of the Dwarven handcannon.

 

Now, the revive of Herblore was met with a lot of protest from the PvP community. "Herblore isn't a combat skill, if you're tying it into combat it should be added to your combat skill". A good point. Yet still, the interest in Herblore peaked. Herblore is now on the minds of the best of combaters - you can't be the best without spending money on Herblore nowadays.

 

And a very interesting idea too. If we look at how combat is leading the market, how can we make a skill attractive again easily? - give it combat bonuses. The idea has been suggested many times before. "Smithing should supply untradeable armours", "Firemaking could be used to set your weapons on fire for combat bonuses", etc. However, they received as much praise as they did critiscism. They aren't combat skills, combat should not be their main intent.

 

So I ask of you, Tip.it, what do YOU think? Should non-combat skills be connected to combat, homogenising the classes of skills. Should they be allowed or not in PvP? Or should we find a way to draw interest to skills without necessitating a shift to combat?

Just to talk a little about skills like herbloring in this topic. If you've used a lot of time training a skill, maybe getting cash to level that skill. You should have earned the right to use it. I think that extremes should be aloud in the wildy. Besides, wasn't wildy about no rules at all? That was the main fun thing with the wildy before "no rules". A lot of things in RS are "OP"(overpowerd). But people that earned them, have the right to use them:) This was my opinion.

I would love to see, for example, high runecrafting levels being required for a series of 'essence' spells which save runes, for example. Or skills otherwise being tied in with combat. I wouldn't like to see a very direct link as in agility = combat speed, but generally making agility useful beyond running (afaik run energy is rarely an issue in most kinds of pvp) would make perfect sense, for example.

It is only one problem here. I think that most of us, at this thread are kind of RS "veterans". We have high skills etc. Think of someone starting of with RS, it would take 2 much time and be 2 complicated to get better in the game. I think it would make less people enter the game. This is not a problem for me or you, but a problem for Jagex money. Therefore they've made the game fairly much more easy atm, coz of low lvl's and the "new" players complaining about how hard it is.

I think the skills should be mixed and it would make killing a lot more interesting (both in PvE and PvP). I think one of the reasons why I dislike killing so much in RuneScape is that it's so boring. Because RuneScape has no individual combat skills (I mean like specific "moves"), all you do is click once and WATCH your character fight. There is no further engagement and that takes the difficulty and diversity out of the game. So one option to make fights more diverse is to involve other skills. That way there would be more options for what unique abilities/equipment your opponent will possess.

Because its so much more interesting to click once and watch your character chop down a tree.

 

Skilling takes 0 skill (with the exception of dungeoneering) where as true combat such as high level PvM and PvP takes skill. I'd much rather focus on switching prayers, paying attention to my hp/prayer, swapping gears and knowing when to spec than just watching my character chop a tree along with 50 other bots. The skill it takes to be good in combat is the reason why there is still to this day not a effective dungeoneering/boss hunting bot yet there's a million bots for skilling.

I would love to see, for example, high runecrafting levels being required for a series of 'essence' spells which save runes, for example. Or skills otherwise being tied in with combat. I wouldn't like to see a very direct link as in agility = combat speed, but generally making agility useful beyond running (afaik run energy is rarely an issue in most kinds of pvp) would make perfect sense, for example.

It is only one problem here. I think that most of us, at this thread are kind of RS "veterans". We have high skills etc. Think of someone starting of with RS, it would take 2 much time and be 2 complicated to get better in the game. I think it would make less people enter the game. This is not a problem for me or you, but a problem for Jagex money. Therefore they've made the game fairly much more easy atm, coz of low lvl's and the "new" players complaining about how hard it is.

 

It'll be too difficult only if they have to compete directly with players way better than them. I don't think it would be that much of a problem. You don't see people around level 40 competing with level 100+s do you? (Apologies to 999134 (I think that's your name, right?), I've heard of your MHing but I won't include you because your acc is good enough to compete with people twice your level.)

 

Of course, the wilderness level caps pose a problem. Combat levels will have to be completely reworked if a lvl 3 skiller is going to be formidable.

Skills at the moment make combat cheaper (smithing & firemaking for repairs & handcannon at the moment) and increase power (herblore). Runecrafting is a skill I'd like to see as a money saver (e.g. as I suggested earlier in this thread). I don't see high-level untradeable runes as a good solution. Though it could work theoretically.

 

For fletching, the trouble is that current arrows/bolts will hit high already with the dark bow & very accurately with ccbow (dbolts, diamonds). If you make the extreme equivalent, you're going to need a larger (smithing/crafting-based) defensive boost.

 

Meh I'm in favour.

I think the skills should be mixed and it would make killing a lot more interesting (both in PvE and PvP). I think one of the reasons why I dislike killing so much in RuneScape is that it's so boring. Because RuneScape has no individual combat skills (I mean like specific "moves"), all you do is click once and WATCH your character fight. There is no further engagement and that takes the difficulty and diversity out of the game. So one option to make fights more diverse is to involve other skills. That way there would be more options for what unique abilities/equipment your opponent will possess.

Because its so much more interesting to click once and watch your character chop down a tree.

 

Skilling takes 0 skill (with the exception of dungeoneering) where as true combat such as high level PvM and PvP takes skill. I'd much rather focus on switching prayers, paying attention to my hp/prayer, swapping gears and knowing when to spec than just watching my character chop a tree along with 50 other bots. The skill it takes to be good in combat is the reason why there is still to this day not a effective dungeoneering/boss hunting bot yet there's a million bots for skilling.

There is more potential for combat to be complex than there is for skilling. I mean how much more interesting can chopping down a tree get? Combat may be more complicated than skilling, but in the grand scheme of things and compared to other games, it is still does not require that much skill. And I'm talking about more than just boss hunting, etc. (but even there, there is still SO much room for improvement).

skills are skills they should not affect combat unless they are combat skills

skills are skills they should not affect combat unless they are combat skills

I assume by this you mean combat level. Every skill inherently affects combat unless the user exclusively trains non-combat skills. Even in the case of a non-combat skiller, the fruits of skilling (logs, ores, chinchompas, etc.) directly affect the combat of others and, therefore, the combat skills.