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07-Apr-2011 - Skilling Ladder (Beta)


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18 replies to this topic

#1
Carl
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Couldn't find any posts regarding this, considering it is rather interesting news and I'm sure will receive a warm welcome from the Skilling clans of RuneScape.

http://services.rune...ing-ladder-beta

Warring and ladders have been dominated by combat-based clans for a number of years but, as we all know, clans aren’t all about PK’ing or indeed combat. That is why we launch our first ever Skilling Ladder today to give a competitive element to the Skilling community that will be officially led by Jagex.

Using the same techniques, rules and formalities of the Skilling Cup section of the Jagex Clan Cup from 2009 and 2010, the ladder will present a weekly battle of supremacy to see who can skill the best. The wars will be arranged and fought by the clans while the results will be processed and presented by our Jagex Elves*. The ladder will be launching as a ‘Beta’ meaning that rules may change in the future. Since a ladder is an on-going process we want to tweak it so that it meets the community's best interests.

So what better way to test out the new clan features then by organising your clan to participate in the ladder? Work out your winning strategy in the new clan area, pick ranks for the chosen few that will represent all that your clan stands for, set up your battle standard among the trees, rocks, and scenery so that the RuneScape populace will learn the name of your clan and help it go down in RuneScape history!

If you are already raring to go or want to find out more information about this new and exciting chance to prove your skilling prowess then you need go no further than the Jagex Skilling Ladder (BETA) (Quick find code: 135-136-862-62641377) . It contains everything you need to know to take part and compete so what are you waiting for? Help us test this new feature for clans and skilling groups!

* May not be real elves.

Mod Kathy and Mod Timbo


If this is anywhere else, then my apologies. Or if you feel it should be somewhere rather than here, go right ahead and move it!

RIP Michaelangelopolous


#2
muggiwhplar
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Unless I'm misinterpreting this...

So this is basically a competition for who can tolerate the most grinding?

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#3
Jehosaphat
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Unless I'm misinterpreting this...

So this is basically a competition for who can tolerate the most grinding?

No, you're forgetting the caffeine variable. The pr0s don't sleep. EVER.
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#4
Michael
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Clans have been doing this for a long time.

#5
Moama
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Divination no doubt will win this, easily.

#6
Mylez
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Basically a grind contest yes, Muggi.
Still an interesting move for Jagex though, as they said.. combat has been the way for a very long time!

#7
brainymidget
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They're making it so it only takes the best hour from each member so it's not really a grind fest. It's just who can have the most efficient 1 hour of skilling.

Clans submit a minimum of 5 players (more can be arranged between the clans) to fight in the war and the best hour of skilling in each skill will be taken from each member. This will then be averaged out for each skill across the clan and be that clan's score in the skill.


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#8
Grimy_Bunyip
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well presumably they'll remove one off rewards IE soul wars by the time the ladder gets out of beta.
and presumably they picked the number 5 because you can have 5 people dungeoneering in a clan at the same time.
but how the heck would the 1 hour thing work for dungeoneering.

The best teams will get xp for 3 floors in 1 hour (by timing the end of the first floor around the start, and finishing the next 2 in under half an hour each).
unless they get consistent sub 20's, pretty much all the teams will be getting the same amount of xp.

Disregard, I read the rules more closely this time.
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#9
MightyMuddy
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well presumably they'll remove one off rewards IE soul wars by the time the ladder gets out of beta.
and presumably they picked the number 5 because you can have 5 people dungeoneering in a clan at the same time.
but how the heck would the 1 hour thing work for dungeoneering.

The best teams will get xp for 3 floors in 1 hour (by timing the end of the first floor around the start, and finishing the next 2 in under half an hour each).
unless they get consistent sub 20's, pretty much all the teams will be getting the same amount of xp.

Couldn't dungoneering just be the exception and they let them do 3 floors each and see who gets the lowest average. Or something along those lines.

#10
Grimy_Bunyip
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Unless I'm misinterpreting this...

So this is basically a competition for who can tolerate the most grinding?

You are misinterpreting it. And disregard my above post, I misinterpreted several things in the rules as well.
You don't get anything for grinding too long.
If anything, grinding is discouraged by the rules.

The game is set up such that the efficient way to gain ranks is to:
Log in, grind for exactly one hour, slightly more if certain skills. Then log out. (you'd have to do this at least twice, since it's a best of 3 contest)
A smart clan with 5 players, playing 2 hour per player every 3 days, will beat out a dumb clan that grinds endlessly.

I'm still reading, but the ladder still has some major flaws that I'll point out in a bit.


Flaws

Flaw 1: Leadership Disadvantage
there is a MASSIVE disadvantage for going to war with a lower ranked clan.
rank 50 clan goes to war with a rank 60 clan.
If rank 50 clan wins, they earn +5 points. rank 60 clan loses 5 points
if rank 60 clan wins, they earn +15 points, rank 50 clan loses 15 points.

I can't see the difference in clan quality being worth a 3x factor, except at the very highest levels.
Skill warring at lower tiers, will become extremely frustrating.

Flaw 2: You can challenge anybody.
Step 1: Create Proxy Clan
Step 2: Make proxy clan challenge your real clan.
Step 3: Deliberately make the proxy clan lose
Step 4: Repeat every war.
Automatic +5 points every war. You never lose.
And you can continue challenging the proxy clan regardless of how low their rank falls.

Flaw 3: Potential sales of ranks.
Lets say you have a clan, that's rank 2. With 1000 points.
Lets say you have another clan, that's rank 1000, with 0 points. The lowest ranked clan in all of runescape!

Rank 2 clan goes onto ebay, sells their rank for 100 bil gp.
Rank 2 clan deliberately forfeits next war.

Rank 1000 clan wins, exchange of points is equal to rank difference + 5 (1003)
Rank 1000 clan is now in 2nd place with 1003 points
Rank 2 clan is now in 1000th place with 0 points (or -3, depending on if jagex will allow for negatives)

And 100 bil gp has been sold on ebay.

Flaw 4: Quantity over quality
since it's ranked is based on points, rather than performance. The only way to rise in rank is to get A LOT of points.
you gets points per war, so your rank is based on the # of wars you do.
A clan that wins 100% of their wars, will be ranked lower than say, a clan that wins 60% of their wars, but wars 10x as often.

Flaw 5: Random Event? GF
title says it all. Get a random event, your xp rate for that hour is pwned.
Log off, and try again with a new session.
Will force players to deliberately force random events to spawn prior to their training sessions.

Flaw 6: Gameable Dungeoneering xp
You can log out during dungeoneering.
The session timer starts when you log in.

So complete a floor 60, full floor, max level mod.
Log back in to end the floor. Then do a few more larges.
You're starting off session with, essentially, a half hour bonus on your xp.

Flaw 7: Gameable Slayer xp
Get a Jad task, log out, log back in, finish jad task for massive xp bonus following the same logic as the dungeoneering gameable trick.
Then do whatever it is in your power to get cannonable tasks.
And get them in a row.

Flaw 8: 1st place is a [bleep]
1st place receives no points.
Thus, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE IN FIRST PLACE UNTIL NEAR THE END OF THE COMPETITION
The other teams will be steadily accumulating points while you are in first place.
Meaning, if you stay in 1st place too long, and you lose your first place rank, your point count will be VERY low.
The other teams spent their time farming their points, and your team did not. The moment you lose, you are at a HUGE disadvantage.
Especially during the early stages of the competition, being in 1st place is VERY VERY bad.

Flaw 9: 2nd place is a [bleep] too
While in second place, the only clan you want to challenge is 1st place.
But, 1st place can challenge either 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th.
If 1st place wins, they keep their rank
If 1st place loses, they revert to their previous points, regardless of what it was.
So, if 1st place was previously 2nd rank, they will revert to 2nd place upon losing. Regardless of whether they lose to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th.
THUS 1st place will ALWAYS choose to fight the weakest link of the 2nd through 5th place.
If your the second place clan, you will NOT receive the opportunity to rise to 1st, not without Jagex intervention.
You know how i said you don't want to be first until near the end of the competition?
What if it comes close to the end of the competition, and you, being in second place, simply do not receive the opportunity to challenge rank #1.
Guess what, you're done, out, no chance at 1st place for you




What I like
Pro #1
The list of disqualifying items is rather comprehensive:
Although i disagree with the inferno adze, lumberjack.

What can I not do during the sessions of Skilling?

You must not use:

Morphic tools from Stealing Creation
Volitile tools from Stealing Creation
The Inferno Adze
Lumberjack set
Penance Horn from Barbarian Assault
Runecrafting Tele Tabs from the Great Orb Project
Locators from Mobilising Armies
Any type of Brawling gloves
XP Lamps of any type
Any Distraction and Diversion (specifically Penguin Hide and Seek, Evil Trees, Shooting Stars, Fish Flingers, Shattered Heart and Balthazar Beaurgard's Big Top Bonanza)


Pro #2
wars based on AVERAGE xp income rate.
if you grind too long, get tired, and your xp rate drops, you get punished.
Also discourages some forms of botting (emphasis on some) because bots cannot perform better than a human (in most cases)
A human with proper scripts > a pure bot at any rate.

So, it encourages Macros being used WHILE a player is actively playing.
It discourages macros being used while a player is not actively playing.

Not an ideal solution, but better than most alternatives.

It sounds like Jmods will be actively investing their time in clan wars anyways.
They're tasked with setting rules between clans that can't agree on rules for example.

There exists the possibility that Jagex could manually check for macros in high ranked clans.
But I won't cross my fingers on that.

Pro #3
You can accuse another enemy team of cheating.
So I mentioned a bunch of ways clans can cheat right?

Jagex claims they will play an active role in dispute resoltion.
Will they? who knows.

Pro #4
Separate free to play and pay to play ladders
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#11
Grogthurk
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But what about people who can get 900k/hr mousekeying rocktails?

Or what if someone can do Overloads for 1hr?

Grimy's point on the proxy clans is 100% right. In a previous MMO I've played, there was a system called Battlegrounds that my guild did the exact same [cabbage] in. Nice thing was that we could dual client instead of needing 20 people on. It was incredibly broken.

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#12
Blyaunte
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Unless I'm misinterpreting this...

So this is basically a competition for who can tolerate the most grinding?


Actually - I think it's more along the lines of who's group of bots manage to operate longer before Jagex's "super secret bot detection programme®" catches them all ...

:rolleyes:

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#13
Grimy_Bunyip
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Unless I'm misinterpreting this...

So this is basically a competition for who can tolerate the most grinding?


Actually - I think it's more along the lines of who's group of bots manage to operate longer before Jagex's "super secret bot detection programme®" catches them all ...

:rolleyes:

the skill ladder is not based on total xp gained.
it's based on the rate of xp gained.
1 efficient hour of xp, will beat out 6 hours of no life or botting.
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#14
Dire_Wolf
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Unless I'm misinterpreting this...

So this is basically a competition for who can tolerate the most grinding?


Actually - I think it's more along the lines of who's group of bots manage to operate longer before Jagex's "super secret bot detection programme®" catches them all ...

:rolleyes:

the skill ladder is not based on total xp gained.
it's based on the rate of xp gained.
1 efficient hour of xp, will beat out 6 hours of no life or botting.

Sounds like Poor clans will loose then.

#15
Grimy_Bunyip
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Sounds like Poor clans will loose then.

battles are only based on best of 3 skills.
And you pick your battles.
If a poor clan chooses to only duel other poor clans, they can complete a season more or less without ever dueling over expensive skills.
But being poor is a disadvantage, as it should be.
But it can be compensated by picking the right battles.

There exist problems with the skill ladder.
But the problems are in how the clans are ranked, not how wins and losses are decided.
The problem with the current ranking system is that a team can win 21 wars in a row, and be ranked lower than a team than losses 20 wars in a row, and wins the last one.
And a host of other ranking problems.
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#16
pulli23
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why couldn't they just create a simple elo system? Like is done with chess.....

Works flawlessly there!

First they came to fishing
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

Then they came to the yews
and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

Then they came for the ores
and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


#17
Ts_Stormrage
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I wish they'd do a similar ladder per combined cup (Stealing Creations)

But they would have to first include Firemaking, Slayer, Dungeoneering and Farming into SC (which I have some ideas for as well btw)

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#18
Ring_World
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OH SO EXPLOITABLE. Cant wait to see all the competitive clans rage by the problems this will cause :thumbup:

#19
Bangin_Blonde
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Oh good. More focus on the clans. I guess they were feeling a bit neglected... <_<




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