Botting in Runescape

[Stev]

[hide]

 

Feel free to show me. I haven't seen anything convincing and your story contradicts a few of the others flying round that claim different things. Of course, all claiming to have talked to the guy himself.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq6iGqHiS-4&feature=channel_video_title

 

Not my vid, also contains some offensive language in the comments :ohnoes:

 

 

He had me until he compared it to being like "employing Hitler". And then he said it AGAIN.

 

Sorry this is off-topic, I just happen to see this video and watched it. What did Mod Jacmob do to deserve such hatred towards him? I'm curious.. :unsure: If you would like to pm the reason, please feel free to do so. Thanks.

Wasn't Jacmob the creator of one of the biggest bots?

 

Yes he was, but jagex went with a pretty decent strategy.

 

They knew people were going to recode their bots in order to beat the bot nuke. So when Jacmob took the program to runefest, they offered him the job. Why? Because if they gave him the job, they knew that the program would never go live with the creator on their side. It's good strategy.

 

On that note, Jacmob doesn't really deserve the job because it wasn't ONLY him who created the program. However he was the "organizer" of all the information, coding, etc so without him the other programmers are lost which is why they have not gone out and created the new client themselves.

[/hide]

It's not only about stopping his bot from going live. Who knows the best about how to prevent hacking? Hackers (eBay anyone?). Who knows the most about ways to prevent botting? Botters.

 

Jacmob (and his team) beat Jagex in terms of the war against botting for years. He knew how his bots could be beat, as does every coder knows what could break his app. He is one of the people who knows the most about how bots work because he spent the majority of his short life so far developing them. Who better to hire?

 

To the people saying, "He's not doing his job because there are bots in-game." Do you forget about the past 9 years where RuneScape was flooded with bots? We're the anti-cheat team not doing their job then - or do you only now chose to complain because it's convenient?

[Omali]

To the people saying, "He's not doing his job because there are bots in-game." Do you forget about the past 9 years where RuneScape was flooded with bots? We're the anti-cheat team not doing their job then - or do you only now chose to complain because it's convenient?

 

It's the same people you see on the news screaming "well I still see criminals so the police must not be arresting anyone."

[GarryGarry]

[Kaur]

Well, that's definitely great news! :thumbup:

[Logdotzip]

Good, because if it hasn't happened yet, I have good sources that tell me Powerbot is returning very soon, possibly today.

[Blyaunte]

Good, because if it hasn't happened yet, I have good sources that tell me Powerbot is returning very soon, possibly today.

 

Just in time for BXPW? :unsure:

[Silver Eros]

It's not only about stopping his bot from going live. Who knows the best about how to prevent hacking? Hackers (eBay anyone?). Who knows the most about ways to prevent botting? Botters.

 

Jacmob (and his team) beat Jagex in terms of the war against botting for years. He knew how his bots could be beat, as does every coder knows what could break his app. He is one of the people who knows the most about how bots work because he spent the majority of his short life so far developing them. Who better to hire?

 

To the people saying, "He's not doing his job because there are bots in-game." Do you forget about the past 9 years where RuneScape was flooded with bots? We're the anti-cheat team not doing their job then - or do you only now chose to complain because it's convenient?

 

Same idea as turning poachers into park rangers.

[Guest jrhairychest]

It's not only about stopping his bot from going live. Who knows the best about how to prevent hacking? Hackers (eBay anyone?). Who knows the most about ways to prevent botting? Botters.

 

Jacmob (and his team) beat Jagex in terms of the war against botting for years. He knew how his bots could be beat, as does every coder knows what could break his app. He is one of the people who knows the most about how bots work because he spent the majority of his short life so far developing them. Who better to hire?

 

To the people saying, "He's not doing his job because there are bots in-game." Do you forget about the past 9 years where RuneScape was flooded with bots? We're the anti-cheat team not doing their job then - or do you only now chose to complain because it's convenient?

 

To a point I can understand why he was hired, but it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. He made a nice living screwing up the game for the fair players like me, now he's proclaimed as a saviour while making money from the opposite side of the spectrum. I cancelled membership when I saw the confirmation he was hired. No regrets either. I've been a loyal supporter of Jagex through thick and thin but this pushed me over the edge.

 

It'll be particularly interesting to see how the boot fits on the other foot when there's attempts to break his handywork in making RS a little more bot proof.

[GarryGarry]

Good, because if it hasn't happened yet, I have good sources that tell me Powerbot is returning very soon, possibly today.

 

good source??? you mean their forum??? lol

[Doctor Who]

 

To a point I can understand why he was hired, but it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. He made a nice living screwing up the game for the fair players like me, now he's proclaimed as a saviour while making money from the opposite side of the spectrum. I cancelled membership when I saw the confirmation he was hired. No regrets either. I've been a loyal supporter of Jagex through thick and thin but this pushed me over the edge.

 

It'll be particularly interesting to see how the boot fits on the other foot when there's attempts to break his handywork in making RS a little more bot proof.

 

 

Im a bit biased so take this as you will:

 

I disagree with your opinion on the matter but thats pretty irrelevant and arguing over it won't do anything. But as far as the business decision to hire Jacmob they're really isn't much to hold against Jagex. In order for this game to be successful I think we can all agree thats Jagex needs the best coders and developers they can get. Jacmob was and is a fantastic coder and a great thinker, he went head to head with Jagex and came out on top for a long time. He had support but the brunt of the work and coding was done by him. Hiring him was Jagex realizing that there was someone who was extremely talented at what he did and he could benefit they're company. Sure he was on the wrong side at one point. But most of the coders for bots look at it as more of a challenge and an excercise in coding and don't really set out to just screw with Jagex. Morally we could argue all day about it, but from a pure business perspective I personally do not see a lot of wiggle room on it being the proper choice. But like I said, im pretty biased and Im sure there is a lot of people who disagree with me.

[Radicap]

Personally I see no problem with it at all. It's just like the FBI hiring Frank Abignale Jr. (See the movie "Catch Me if You Can" for his story.) If you can't beat 'em, pay 'em to join you.

[Stev]

Personally I see no problem with it at all. It's just like the FBI hiring Frank Abignale Jr. (See the movie "Catch Me if You Can" for his story.) If you can't beat 'em, pay 'em to join you.

Exactly this. If Jagex wanted to win this battle, they needed to sway the opposition to side with them.

 

I think Mod MMG knew that someone would beat the bot nuke when he posted his message on the forum saying he'd personally hire them. He knew full-well that he could get one hell of a good coder out if it, and if someone did manage to beat the nuke... They would need one hell of a good coder.

[The_Fray]

It is none of our business who Jagex chooses to employ. Just because you pay 5$ to play their game gives you no right to question personnel moves.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

It is none of our business who Jagex chooses to employ. Just because you pay 5$ to play their game gives you no right to question personnel moves.

 

You may certainly withdraw your $5 if you disagree with their personnel moves, which is something I see no problem with. About it not being our business? It's very clearly a PR matter, as well as his past and his current position within the company being very prominent and in the open. If it isn't our business, we're just not paying enough attention.

 

That aside, I don't see much of a problem with Jacmob getting hired. (Déjà-vu; I think I replied to this thread earlier.)

 

It's tough to overlook what he did in the past, no doubt about that, but it's better to have someone that's exploited your weaknesses on your side than not. This is why hackers can find work (one example: George Hotz), and are often respected in the field that they work in.

[Logdotzip]

Good, because if it hasn't happened yet, I have good sources that tell me Powerbot is returning very soon, possibly today.

 

good source??? you mean their forum??? lol

 

I don't frequent forums for botting, sorry.

[Mercifull]

Good, because if it hasn't happened yet, I have good sources that tell me Powerbot is returning very soon, possibly today.

There's already at least one reflection bot up so i have no doubt they are close. They'd better be quick though because according to Jacmob the latest bot nuke is only a week or two away.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Personally I see no problem with it at all. It's just like the FBI hiring Frank Abignale Jr. (See the movie "Catch Me if You Can" for his story.) If you can't beat 'em, pay 'em to join you.

Exactly this. If Jagex wanted to win this battle, they needed to sway the opposition to side with them.

 

I think Mod MMG knew that someone would beat the bot nuke when he posted his message on the forum saying he'd personally hire them. He knew full-well that he could get one hell of a good coder out if it, and if someone did manage to beat the nuke... They would need one hell of a good coder.

As I said before, the boot is now on the other foot. It's much easier to break something than creating something or stopping it from being broken. I'm also not big on these guys being proclaimed to be great. If they were they'd create superior products of their own, not trying to break other peoples hard work.

 

Interestingly, the guy all of a sudden went evangelical in helping Jagex out. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but if the guy was so successful and making a fair amount money from it why take a lesser wage and work for Jagex? Perhaps he knew his number was up and it was only a matter of time before they sued the arse off him?

 

It is none of our business who Jagex chooses to employ. Just because you pay 5$ to play their game gives you no right to question personnel moves.

 

You may certainly withdraw your $5 if you disagree with their personnel moves, which is something I see no problem with. About it not being our business? It's very clearly a PR matter, as well as his past and his current position within the company being very prominent and in the open. If it isn't our business, we're just not paying enough attention.

Agreed. It all seemed very cloak and dagger with the way it was handled. Very unsavoury.

 

They'd have had my support if they'd just confirmed everything and Jacmob issued an article with an apology on the RS website admitting it was wrong to do what he did etc.

[Omali]

To a point I can understand why he was hired, but it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. He made a nice living screwing up the game for the fair players like me, now he's proclaimed as a saviour while making money from the opposite side of the spectrum. I cancelled membership when I saw the confirmation he was hired. No regrets either. I've been a loyal supporter of Jagex through thick and thin but this pushed me over the edge.

 

It'll be particularly interesting to see how the boot fits on the other foot when there's attempts to break his handywork in making RS a little more bot proof.

 

I hope you're not using anti-virus software then, better yet I hope you're not paying for it. Anti-virus companies hire hackers all the time, especially the big ones that crack into corporate systems and government networks and steal your credit card numbers and harvest passwords. And you must really hate the police department, considering they strike deals with criminals on a regular basis to act as spies and informants for pay and reduced sentencing.

 

It's a fact of life.

[Fresi]

I don't mind him working for Jagex, but he still has allot to do before i could even consider showing my appreciation, A drug runner can bring down a cartel, but it dose not make him a hero all of a sudden.

And I'm sure if he is not good at his job, jagex will get rid of him.

We also have no clue on what deal he made with jagex really.

 

Here is for hope the next bot nuke will not forgiven! :geek:

[Omali]

I don't mind him working for Jagex, but he still has allot to do before i could even consider showing my appreciation, A drug runner can bring down a cartel, but it dose not make him a hero all of a sudden.

And I'm sure if he is not good at his job, jagex will get rid of him.

We also have no clue on what deal he made with jagex really.

 

Here is for hope the next bot nuke will not forgiven! :geek:

 

My understanding is that Jagex said they would hire the first person to break their bot nuke with a reflection or injection bot, and he did it at Runefest.

 

Also, just look at Pwn2Own, an annual contest where big companies (Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc) offer prizes to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars to people who manage to hack their software packages. Google promised 20 grand this year and free laptops.

[Guest jrhairychest]

I hope you're not using anti-virus software then, better yet I hope you're not paying for it. Anti-virus companies hire hackers all the time, especially the big ones that crack into corporate systems and government networks and steal your credit card numbers and harvest passwords. And you must really hate the police department, considering they strike deals with criminals on a regular basis to act as spies and informants for pay and reduced sentencing.

 

It's a fact of life.

Actually, I put my money where my mouth is and did something about it. If I could change other things, I would. I can't. Simple. :mellow:

[Stev]

This whole situation reminds me of a TV show I'd seen a few times. It's 2 guys who are experts and breaking and destroying stuff the unbreakable: Cars, trucks, military vehicles, etc. However, once they've proven that they can break it, they have to find and create (and prove that it works) a way to prevent that method of breaking it in the future.

 

IDK how effective Optimus will be, but we can hope. I see this turning into a sort of arms race. Jagex beats the botters - botters find a way to beat Jagex - Jagex has to spend weeks on another nuke - botters finally beat it again - lather rinse and repeat.

 

I'm more curious how they plan to take down screen scrapers. I saw a few cute things change in random events and things, but nothing that'd take down a scraper not programmed to looks for specific colors. They can change colors and such all they want, it won't help. =/.

 

Eager to see what they have in store. :).

[n64jive]

I don't post here often, nor do I play the game anymore, for the main reason that I am 22 years old, graduating from a prestigious university with a bachelors in computer science and computer engineering. But at one point in my life, I played runescape pretty religiously. And I still hate that I wasted so much time on the game rather than something else. But alas, time I will never get back, and I can't change it now.

 

I recently learned the story of Jacmob while spending some time with the game in order to occupy my mind. I could no longer play the game, as it was pretty mind numbing. I didn't have the hours I had as a kid to get to the levels I wanted to. I learned of botting, and I almost decided to try and use Jacmob's API to create my own scripts, however I didn't. Instead, I took his initiative and tried to my own interfaces to an entirely different game. I learned that it's a lot of bytecode work, and it no longer became of interest to me.

 

It seems to me that Jacmob was the main programmer of both of the most common bots used in runescape before the nuke. As a 22 year old college student, I was impressed with this kids project, which he turned into a business. It reminds me of a similiar man, who had a project, and later turned it into a business. I believe his name is Andrew Gower. The only difference, is Gower did this in 1999, which was a time when creating your own games wasn't all that common. Times have changed.

 

Jacmob really did the next best thing. He didn't create a game, but he created a way to play a game that to some, would help overcome the parts of the game they didn't enjoy. He did many, many other things with his project, which many people found favourable.

 

When you have a MMO, there are a few factors that come into play that would entice "botting". The game is competative, and the entire concepts is that of "efficient" gameplay in order play at a level of other players. However, this level of accomplishment requires time, and to many of us, time is money. This creates a market for the game, and then automation of the game becomes a profitable business venture. So this all created a perfect environment for botting, and many, many people wanted a piece of the action. Bots quickly became a large portion of the game, and it ruined the experience for many players.

 

So now Jacmob had a project, that although profitable for him, was ruining someone elses business. I have spoken to the man, and he has pretty good sense of moral well being. I have no clue what all happened behind the scenes, and it's likely something that will never come out. It's really the nature of big business.

 

Jagex offered him a job, because they were impressed with his skills. He was able to get a job with pretty major corporation without any sort of college degree at the age of 17 or 18. That's pretty impressive. Be angry that he now works for Jagex if you like, however, the man is merely a man with a highly technical brain and many skills.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Youre trying to justify the whole episode by painting it in some sort of romantic light and almost justify the need/market for botting. Being 22 and almost having a degree doesnt convince me that what youre saying is common sense It actually reinforces the point that school/college/university in no way reflects real life. Heres why I completely disagree with you:

 

• 
   
  
• You yourself considered botting because you did not have the time to try to compete with others. Instead of using good old common sense and either trying another game you could play or accepting things would take time you considered cheating and even thinking about writing your own software to cheat.
  
• Jacmob turned cheating into a business that ruined the game for a lot of people, causing them to leave, giving the game bad PR and costing money as the result.
  
• Jacmob doesnt even deserve to clean Gowers shoes let alone have any positive comparison. Andrew Gower created his own product. He had an original idea that he had the talent to produce and get off the ground. Jacmob didnt, he leeched off an original idea that encouraged cheating and go against the spirit of the game. He further encouraged players to play who had no inclination to play within that game spirit.
  
• The quality of young programmers were generally better in 1999. They solved their own problems and tried to make games they wanted to play. Many today simply download programs that other people write, change a few things and say its their own. Its amazing how easily it is to test this via the interview stage by giving them a PC thats disconnected from the internet when you want them to demonstrate their skills.
  
• Cheating is not efficient gameplay. Unless were classing gaming as games we dont actually play but want to take the plaudits for.
  
• Someone with a moral well being (which incidentally translates as capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct) doesnt encourage cheating or profit by it. He hasnt become trustworthy overnight and if I were Jagex Id keep him on a tight leash.
  
• Dont assume that because someone can break things theyre a genius, Gower was/is. Lets see Jacmobs next brilliant game he creates..........
   
  

[Stev]

Jacmob turned cheating into a business that ruined the game for a lot of people

And made it better/bearable for countless more.

costing money as the result

You really think it costed Jagex money? The 60% of players on RuneScape, members bots, costing Jagex money? You notice that now, after the bot nuke, we have silly loyalty rewards, squeal of fortune (clearly to bait F2P to buy memberships), rewards for buying game cards, etc?

 

Jagex did the big move, which is respectable, and got rid of the bots who were paying most of their wages. Now they're trying to make up for it.

 

Andrew Gower created his own product

He created something that he himself and even a full team dedicated to anti-cheat couldn't stop people from botting. Clearly, weren't too good at it. Jacmob was. Bot developers were. You seem to be singing Jagex' praises, yet claim the people who beat them for over 9 years have less skill or don't deserve recognition.

 

Keep in mind that I don't encourage or support botting, but he was extremely smart taking the paths he has. Sure he won't become trustworthy overnight and I'm sure Jagex is already keeping their eyes on him. He may end up blowing all of us away and completely ridding the game of automation... Only time will tell. :).

 

Edit: I'm curious, what is your opinion and views on companies such as GameShark?