Botting in Runescape

[n64jive]

First, I would like to point out that I don't consider the points I made to be "common sense", but rather my own opinions, and I respect your opinions, despite them being disagreements. I will, however, point out some of my disagreements with your disagreements.

 

• You yourself considered botting because you did not have the time to try to compete with others. Instead of using good old common sense and either trying another game you could play or accepting things would take time you considered cheating and even thinking about writing your own software to cheat.

I did play other games, however I wanted to improve upon a life skill, instead of merely playing games. The style of runescape is that of repetition. Through my own experiences and my jobs/internships, I found that if I had a repetative process, the goal was to automate it as best we could.

 

Anyone can play runescape. It's hardly a game of skill, and more a game based on your dedication to the game. Similiarly, anyone can purchase a bot, run it, and come back to the game. I wasn't interested in either of these, but rather the problem solving involved in creating bots, and further learning of the java environment.

 

• Jacmob turned cheating into a business that ruined the game for a lot of people, causing them to leave, giving the game bad PR and costing money as the result.

 

I honestly feel this wasn't his intention. It seemed to me like all the financials was under the wing of another member, and he created a business model for the software. Jacmob informed me that he was making over $60,000 a year from the new model, funds he would use to pay for his schooling. It is under the assumption (with no proof), that he did fix the bot after the nuke. Only he and the representatives in Jagex know what actually happened, but shortly after he was offered a Job with them. Something he did impressed them, so they offered him a job.

• Jacmob doesnt even deserve to clean Gowers shoes let alone have any positive comparison. Andrew Gower created his own product. He had an original idea that he had the talent to produce and get off the ground. Jacmob didnt, he leeched off an original idea that encouraged cheating and go against the spirit of the game. He further encouraged players to play who had no inclination to play within that game spirit.

 

Some people would similarly argue that the Gowers created their own little monster. We have childhood obesity caused by kids who would rather sit in front of a television and play video games, rather than go outside and play. I fault this to parenting, but lets admit it that the Gowers never would have reached a level of successs if these kids weren't around to invest time into their game.

 

• The quality of young programmers were generally better in 1999. They solved their own problems and tried to make games they wanted to play. Many today simply download programs that other people write, change a few things and say its their own. Its amazing how easily it is to test this via the interview stage by giving them a PC thats disconnected from the internet when you want them to demonstrate their skills.

 

This is entirely your own opinion, and a scenario it seems as if you made up.

 

First off, Information Science and Technology is a growing field. I've worked for many different companies throughout my college career. A group of us had brunch with the CIO of one of the companies, which has an intern hire-rate of something ridiculously high like 98%. I asked him why he thought that rate was so high, and he exclaimed for multiple resons including 1. The area college was producing high caliber graduates. 2. The business is growing and there is a large need for technology based persons. He even exclaimed that business positions are being filled with the lower end level of CS majors, as they known how to get the work done more efficiently. He stated (and I also have heard this same point from many other older managers and directors) that the level of knowledge a college graduate has today is much higher than those 10 years ago. He mentioned a big part of this is because people are able to learn the same material at a faster rate.

 

During an interview, I was never asked to actually "write" a program to solve a problem. Instead, I was given a whiteboard, and asked to go through the process of how I would solve the problem, and that I could use any method I wanted to portray it. I'm a big flowchart guy, so I usually started with that. This usually demonstrated my problem solving ability. They would test my knowledge of CS topics by asking me CS specific questions.

 

At my job (which becomes full time in May), I perform tasks in 3 different programming languages. I write java in order to interface with many of the frameworks that is standard among the web based applications. I write perl in order to parse information from different servers and databases on those servers. Finally, I write C/C++ for the embedded systems. The internet is a resource, and many people have become very proficient at gathering information from it. Most companies don't care that you memorize all the libraries of a certain language. They just care that you are performing your job efficiently.

 

• Cheating is not efficient gameplay. Unless were classing gaming as games we dont actually play but want to take the plaudits for.

Which is a major downfall of the game. Runescape is mainly marketed at those who are <19 years old (ie, highschool, jr high..etc). Anyone older doesn't have the time to commit to this game. I know many professionals in my field, ages 20-30, who enjoy this genre of game. However, you literaly have to dedicate hours of your life to achieve the end-game material, and that is the only way to succeed. Not to mention, you often have to perform the same task over and over to get to those level. I started runescape back in 2001 because of the social interaction the game employed. I would say the socialness of the game attributes a large part to it's success, and not the actual mechanics of the game.

 

• Someone with a moral well being (which incidentally translates as capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct) doesnt encourage cheating or profit by it. He hasnt become trustworthy overnight and if I were Jagex Id keep him on a tight leash.

You act as if he has plans to sabatoge the company. If anyone has a disconnect from reality, I would say it is you. First off, now that he has worked for Jagex, his ability to go back to profitable botting for the game is nil. I'm sure they made him sign a non-compete. If he tried to go back to the trade of botting software, he would likely get sued, and my guess is it wouldn't be a hard fought battle for Jagex.

• Dont assume that because someone can break things theyre a genius, Gower was/is. Lets see Jacmobs next brilliant game he creates..........
  

Andrew Gower created a video game. I don't know if I would classify him as a genius. (I wouldn't call Jacmob genius either...) Both had success in hobbies turned to profitable business. Andrew was my age when he started runescape. Jacmob was still a highschool student. The amount of knowledge gained from age 17-22 is massive. I'm still impressed with Jacmob's knoweldge at such a young age. And for the time, I'm sure that Andrew's was equally impressive.

[Bxpprod]

:thumbup:

Very easy to say "hurr I made a bot it works hurr it's easy" and prove absolutely nothing.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Lord Paul
Removed rule-breaking referrence

[Fresi]

Claiming a bot is needed to make this game fun, is for some true, but this game was not intended that way, therefore any form off boting is destroying the game for those who play it as it was meant to be played.

Not having time to play dose not justify destroying the game for those who do?

 

He broke the game, he did not create a tool for fixing it. If Jagex wants Rs to be Les grindy, they would make it so. No need to keep trying to justify that, he has himself stated he understand that now and that he made a mistake in creating bots and destroying the game.

There are a ton of programmers out there who can break jagex anti-bot systems, claiming someone is brilliant for doing so is once agen wrong. All of us can rob a store if we put our mind to it, so those who do rob stores are not brilliant just for doing so.

 

edit: oh and those talking about the hackers that Microsoft/Google pay for hacking, do so asked by the company, there is a big difference between legal hacking and illegal.

[n64jive]

Claiming a bot is needed to make this game fun, is for some true, but this game was not intended that way, therefore any form off boting is destroying the game for those who play it as it was meant to be played.

Not having time to play dose not justify destroying the game for those who do?

 

He broke the game, he did not create a tool for fixing it. If Jagex wants Rs to be Les grindy, they would make it so. No need to keep trying to justify that, he has himself stated he understand that now and that he made a mistake in creating bots and destroying the game.

There are a ton of programmers out there who can break jagex anti-bot systems, claiming someone is brilliant for doing so is once agen wrong. All of us can rob a store if we put our mind to it, so those who do rob stores are not brilliant just for doing so.

 

I wouldn't say there are tons of programmers who can do it. Jagex's update also broke the "private server" community. There is page long discussions on private server forums of people offering their work in order to get their private clients up and working again.

 

Also the robbing a store analogy is comparing apples to oranges. That's like stating I should be subject to the same penalties and judge as the same kind of person whether I rob a store or whether I cheat in a video game.

 

I don't think people realize it, but many people in this world don't have a logical way of thinking. Much like I can't create and artistic materpiece, joe schmoe doesn't understand math, logic, programming, etc. I would also go as far as to say that trying to interface with the client through your own interfaces, and creating an API based on that is not really immorally wrong.

 

EDIT: and why we are talking about legal and illegal hacking, I should remind people that there is a difference between holding someone at gun/knife point to steal directly from a store, and writing a program so that a game you play, plays itself...

[The_Fray]

I never blamed the bot developers, they were simply exploiting a market, people were willing to pay for their products. I blame those who bought these botting programs and used them, and Jagex for their incompetence and letting it go on for this long before finally taking some measure to prevent their game from going downhill.

[Fresi]

Claiming a bot is needed to make this game fun, is for some true, but this game was not intended that way, therefore any form off boting is destroying the game for those who play it as it was meant to be played.

Not having time to play dose not justify destroying the game for those who do?

 

He broke the game, he did not create a tool for fixing it. If Jagex wants Rs to be Les grindy, they would make it so. No need to keep trying to justify that, he has himself stated he understand that now and that he made a mistake in creating bots and destroying the game.

There are a ton of programmers out there who can break jagex anti-bot systems, claiming someone is brilliant for doing so is once agen wrong. All of us can rob a store if we put our mind to it, so those who do rob stores are not brilliant just for doing so.

 

I wouldn't say there are tons of programmers who can do it. Jagex's update also broke the "private server" community. There is page long discussions on private server forums of people offering their work in order to get their private clients up and working again.

 

Also the robbing a store analogy is comparing apples to oranges. That's like stating I should be subject to the same penalties and judge as the same kind of person whether I rob a store or whether I cheat in a video game.

 

I don't think people realize it, but many people in this world don't have a logical way of thinking. Much like I can't create and artistic materpiece, joe schmoe doesn't understand math, logic, programming, etc. I would also go as far as to say that trying to interface with the client through your own interfaces, and creating an API based on that is not really immorally wrong.

 

EDIT: and why we are talking about legal and illegal hacking, I should remind people that there is a difference between holding someone at gun/knife point to steal directly from a store, and writing a program so that a game you play, plays itself...

 

the reason i resort to such ways of explaining that creating bots is against the law, is due to that some here do not seam to understand it unless you compare it to something we can see outside our computers, you can compare my explanation with that of anti piracy commercials before the movies on dvd, you know the on, "You Wouldn't Steal a Car!".

 

The amount of ppl that can think "logically" is still very big, even if it was as low as 1% which it is not! the amount off ppl that could think logically enough to break the bot nuke if they put effort into learning more about it is more likely to be around 20%, but most of those chose not to, or spend that time actually doing something creative that dose not break old systems, or they have no interest in computers to start with.

If you write a bot program for Runescape, you might end up standing next in line to the one who stole from a store. Jagex has been pressing legal actions, and has already won against bots, and I'm sure they will keep going.

[n64jive]

 

Claiming a bot is needed to make this game fun, is for some true, but this game was not intended that way, therefore any form off boting is destroying the game for those who play it as it was meant to be played.

Not having time to play dose not justify destroying the game for those who do?

 

He broke the game, he did not create a tool for fixing it. If Jagex wants Rs to be Les grindy, they would make it so. No need to keep trying to justify that, he has himself stated he understand that now and that he made a mistake in creating bots and destroying the game.

There are a ton of programmers out there who can break jagex anti-bot systems, claiming someone is brilliant for doing so is once agen wrong. All of us can rob a store if we put our mind to it, so those who do rob stores are not brilliant just for doing so.

 

I wouldn't say there are tons of programmers who can do it. Jagex's update also broke the "private server" community. There is page long discussions on private server forums of people offering their work in order to get their private clients up and working again.

 

Also the robbing a store analogy is comparing apples to oranges. That's like stating I should be subject to the same penalties and judge as the same kind of person whether I rob a store or whether I cheat in a video game.

 

I don't think people realize it, but many people in this world don't have a logical way of thinking. Much like I can't create and artistic materpiece, joe schmoe doesn't understand math, logic, programming, etc. I would also go as far as to say that trying to interface with the client through your own interfaces, and creating an API based on that is not really immorally wrong.

 

EDIT: and why we are talking about legal and illegal hacking, I should remind people that there is a difference between holding someone at gun/knife point to steal directly from a store, and writing a program so that a game you play, plays itself...

 

the reason i resort to such ways of explaining that creating bots is against the law, is due to that some here do not seam to understand it unless you compare it to something we can see outside our computers, you can compare my explanation with that of anti piracy commercials before the movies on dvd, you know the on, "You Wouldn't Steal a Car!".

 

The amount of ppl that can think "logically" is still very big, even if it was as low as 1% which it is not! the amount off ppl that could think logically enough to break the bot nuke if they put effort into learning more about it is more likely to be around 20%, but most of those chose not to, or spend that time actually doing something creative that dose not break old systems, or they have no interest in computers to start with.

If you write a bot program for Runescape, you might end up standing next in line to the one who stole from a store. Jagex has been pressing legal actions, and has already won against bots, and I'm sure they will keep going.

 

 

Except robbery is a criminal act, while Jagex would be issuing a civil suit against you. As far as I know, Jagex hasn't actually reach the level of court with any persons who bot/ people who distribute bots. Perhaps you could show me credible proof otherwise.

 

PS, I think the "You wouldn't steal a car" videos are equally foolish. You wouldn't steal a candy bar is more like it.

[Fresi]

 

Claiming a bot is needed to make this game fun, is for some true, but this game was not intended that way, therefore any form off boting is destroying the game for those who play it as it was meant to be played.

Not having time to play dose not justify destroying the game for those who do?

 

He broke the game, he did not create a tool for fixing it. If Jagex wants Rs to be Les grindy, they would make it so. No need to keep trying to justify that, he has himself stated he understand that now and that he made a mistake in creating bots and destroying the game.

There are a ton of programmers out there who can break jagex anti-bot systems, claiming someone is brilliant for doing so is once agen wrong. All of us can rob a store if we put our mind to it, so those who do rob stores are not brilliant just for doing so.

 

I wouldn't say there are tons of programmers who can do it. Jagex's update also broke the "private server" community. There is page long discussions on private server forums of people offering their work in order to get their private clients up and working again.

 

Also the robbing a store analogy is comparing apples to oranges. That's like stating I should be subject to the same penalties and judge as the same kind of person whether I rob a store or whether I cheat in a video game.

 

I don't think people realize it, but many people in this world don't have a logical way of thinking. Much like I can't create and artistic materpiece, joe schmoe doesn't understand math, logic, programming, etc. I would also go as far as to say that trying to interface with the client through your own interfaces, and creating an API based on that is not really immorally wrong.

 

EDIT: and why we are talking about legal and illegal hacking, I should remind people that there is a difference between holding someone at gun/knife point to steal directly from a store, and writing a program so that a game you play, plays itself...

 

the reason i resort to such ways of explaining that creating bots is against the law, is due to that some here do not seam to understand it unless you compare it to something we can see outside our computers, you can compare my explanation with that of anti piracy commercials before the movies on dvd, you know the on, "You Wouldn't Steal a Car!".

 

The amount of ppl that can think "logically" is still very big, even if it was as low as 1% which it is not! the amount off ppl that could think logically enough to break the bot nuke if they put effort into learning more about it is more likely to be around 20%, but most of those chose not to, or spend that time actually doing something creative that dose not break old systems, or they have no interest in computers to start with.

If you write a bot program for Runescape, you might end up standing next in line to the one who stole from a store. Jagex has been pressing legal actions, and has already won against bots, and I'm sure they will keep going.

 

 

Except robbery is a criminal act, while Jagex would be issuing a civil suit against you. As far as I know, Jagex hasn't actually reach the level of court with any persons who bot/ people who distribute bots. Perhaps you could show me credible proof otherwise.

 

PS, I think the "You wouldn't steal a car" videos are equally foolish. You wouldn't steal a candy bar is more like it.

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/307200-jagex-limited-vimpulse-software-eric-snellman-and-mark-snellman/

 

everything in that video is true, you can actually get hard time for downloading. It also has alot to do with morals, breaking the law is breaking the law, just because its a small crime its not ok.

[n64jive]

Wow...that is pretty interesting. Obviously this company must have been doing something more then what Jacmob was doing, as the lawsuits were in the works since 2010. Jacmob stated several times that his software did not violate copyright laws...

[Mercifull]

Jacmob stated several times that his software did not violate copyright laws...

So did Snellman Bros. It's not Jacmob, or Snellman Bros that gets to decide really, its a judge.

[NotoriousPSC]

Has botting gotten worse in the last two years? It seems that way.

[Fresi]

Has botting gotten worse in the last two years? It seems that way.

2007 boting was at a all time hig, then came trade restriction, alot of the gathering bots disappeared, those bots running was mainly bots made for skilling lvls.

Free trade returned, bots steadily increased, bot nuke- killed almost all, and now they are slowly getting back, but its still rather low compared to pre nuke/07.

 

so I would not say its worse, unless you compare with the time free trade was gone.

[Guest jrhairychest]

Jacmob turned cheating into a business that ruined the game for a lot of people

And made it better/bearable for countless more.

Sorry Stev but that's one of the daftest things you could have said. Theres no excuses. You simply play something else if a game is 'unbearable'. Cheating does not make a better game or a better player. It just damages the integrity of both.

 

You really think it costed Jagex money? The 60% of players on RuneScape, members bots, costing Jagex money? You notice that now, after the bot nuke, we have silly loyalty rewards, squeal of fortune (clearly to bait F2P to buy memberships), rewards for buying game cards, etc?

 

Jagex did the big move, which is respectable, and got rid of the bots who were paying most of their wages. Now they're trying to make up for it.

That 60% figure you mention are not members bots, that was the total playing community. Only a small proportion of those were members bots. Membership fees were largely unnaffected. It's on the official Runefest vid.

 

He created something that he himself and even a full team dedicated to anti-cheat couldn't stop people from botting. Clearly, weren't too good at it. Jacmob was. Bot developers were. You seem to be singing Jagex' praises, yet claim the people who beat them for over 9 years have less skill or don't deserve recognition.

 

Keep in mind that I don't encourage or support botting, but he was extremely smart taking the paths he has. Sure he won't become trustworthy overnight and I'm sure Jagex is already keeping their eyes on him. He may end up blowing all of us away and completely ridding the game of automation... Only time will tell. :).

 

Edit: I'm curious, what is your opinion and views on companies such as GameShark?

 

Believe it or not there are some of us who like Jagex's product and the company in general. Why would I play their product then want to burn them in hell? I tend to leave that to the kids on these forums. You're right, bot makers don't deserve recognition. Jagex has been hampered by what they can do for a number of years just using browser technology but they did a damn good job of it, otherwise you wouldn't be playing it or posting here. All the bot makers did was find a way to interfere with the game interface. There's no comparison. Bot of developers are children - They're simply not talented enough to make a good gaming product so they decide to screw around with someone elses - Like the kid who steals the ball in a game because he's not getting his own way.

 

Gameshark? Not really a console gamer personally, but as soon as I see the word 'cheat' it looks like another outlet for the gamers with a lack of any gaming talent. They may as well play chess against themselves while stealing the other sides board pieces. While it is an alien concept to many, I actually like to play fair on an even ground. That means that if I'm beaten in a game by a superior opponent by their talent then I judge that to be a good game and I respect that player. I don't want to play games where people play by their own rules because they're not good enough to play it fairly. It's called integrity.

 

As far as not supporting/condoning botting yourself I'm not convinced. As a self-professed code breaker in games it would be difficult for anyone to believe that you give RS a wide berth on this issue.

 

I did play other games, however I wanted to improve upon a life skill, instead of merely playing games. The style of runescape is that of repetition. Through my own experiences and my jobs/internships, I found that if I had a repetative process, the goal was to automate it as best we could.

 

Anyone can play runescape. It's hardly a game of skill, and more a game based on your dedication to the game. Similiarly, anyone can purchase a bot, run it, and come back to the game. I wasn't interested in either of these, but rather the problem solving involved in creating bots, and further learning of the java environment.

 

Automate your own gameplay? Why not put your skills in developing a game that requires no user interaction whatsoever....oh yes that would be boring wouldn't it? Yes you're right....anyone can play RS, it requires no skill....and yet still players felt the need to bot.

 

I honestly feel this wasn't his intention. It seemed to me like all the financials was under the wing of another member, and he created a business model for the software. Jacmob informed me that he was making over $60,000 a year from the new model, funds he would use to pay for his schooling. It is under the assumption (with no proof), that he did fix the bot after the nuke. Only he and the representatives in Jagex know what actually happened, but shortly after he was offered a Job with them. Something he did impressed them, so they offered him a job.

Did you see him handing back the cash if it wasn't his intention?

 

Some people would similarly argue that the Gowers created their own little monster. We have childhood obesity caused by kids who would rather sit in front of a television and play video games, rather than go outside and play. I fault this to parenting, but lets admit it that the Gowers never would have reached a level of successs if these kids weren't around to invest time into their game.

No the Gowers created a game that was intended to be played in a certain way. If they wanted automation they would have built that into the game. Just because they were successful doesn't justify anyone else making money on the back of it.

 

This is entirely your own opinion, and a scenario it seems as if you made up.

 

First off, Information Science and Technology is a growing field. I've worked for many different companies throughout my college career. A group of us had brunch with the CIO of one of the companies, which has an intern hire-rate of something ridiculously high like 98%. I asked him why he thought that rate was so high, and he exclaimed for multiple resons including 1. The area college was producing high caliber graduates. 2. The business is growing and there is a large need for technology based persons. He even exclaimed that business positions are being filled with the lower end level of CS majors, as they known how to get the work done more efficiently. He stated (and I also have heard this same point from many other older managers and directors) that the level of knowledge a college graduate has today is much higher than those 10 years ago. He mentioned a big part of this is because people are able to learn the same material at a faster rate.

 

During an interview, I was never asked to actually "write" a program to solve a problem. Instead, I was given a whiteboard, and asked to go through the process of how I would solve the problem, and that I could use any method I wanted to portray it. I'm a big flowchart guy, so I usually started with that. This usually demonstrated my problem solving ability. They would test my knowledge of CS topics by asking me CS specific questions.

 

At my job (which becomes full time in May), I perform tasks in 3 different programming languages. I write java in order to interface with many of the frameworks that is standard among the web based applications. I write perl in order to parse information from different servers and databases on those servers. Finally, I write C/C++ for the embedded systems. The internet is a resource, and many people have become very proficient at gathering information from it. Most companies don't care that you memorize all the libraries of a certain language. They just care that you are performing your job efficiently.

 

I made it up.....? My CV says I've been programming for around 15 years now, so pretty much since when you were 7 years old, originally using older languages including Cobol and C. Our interview process requires a logic exam and two time based practicals - One 'we broke it you fix it' scenario and one 'here is a design - go make it'. If they get past those we then formally interview. We don't take any monkey with a degree because we know what's being churned out of universities. I'm from the industry you're talking about and I completely disagree with you.

 

Even the UK govt has recognised that there's something wrong. It has been widely documented that the school curriculums are to be changed because nobody programs any more and the universities are less than satisfied with the calibre of candidates they get.

 

Which is a major downfall of the game. Runescape is mainly marketed at those who are <19 years old (ie, highschool, jr high..etc). Anyone older doesn't have the time to commit to this game. I know many professionals in my field, ages 20-30, who enjoy this genre of game. However, you literaly have to dedicate hours of your life to achieve the end-game material, and that is the only way to succeed. Not to mention, you often have to perform the same task over and over to get to those level. I started runescape back in 2001 because of the social interaction the game employed. I would say the socialness of the game attributes a large part to it's success, and not the actual mechanics of the game.

You're using these examples as a way of justifying cheating. The answer is quite simple - If someone doesn't have the time to commit or doesn't like the game mechanics then they can play something else or accept it. Your own sig says 'Nobody forces you'.

 

You act as if he has plans to sabatoge the company. If anyone has a disconnect from reality, I would say it is you. First off, now that he has worked for Jagex, his ability to go back to profitable botting for the game is nil. I'm sure they made him sign a non-compete. If he tried to go back to the trade of botting software, he would likely get sued, and my guess is it wouldn't be a hard fought battle for Jagex.

I guess calling him a moral guy (capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct) went completely over your head.

 

Andrew Gower created a video game. I don't know if I would classify him as a genius. (I wouldn't call Jacmob genius either...) Both had success in hobbies turned to profitable business. Andrew was my age when he started runescape. Jacmob was still a highschool student. The amount of knowledge gained from age 17-22 is massive. I'm still impressed with Jacmob's knoweldge at such a young age. And for the time, I'm sure that Andrew's was equally impressive.

Still doesn't change anything. Gower created a fantastic game, Jacmob just didn't have the talent to do the same.

[Platinum_Myr]

While I agree that sharing or using a bot client is wrong, the creation of automation scripts is a unique and interesting challenge. Just because the use of something is wrong, doesn't mean it takes no skill to automate. I agree that it goes against the spirit (and rules) of the game, because it means any and all achievements are without value.

 

Saying Jacmob has no skill is wrong. It takes impressive skill to automate a ton of the complex actions in the game, especially to continuously avoid detection from the anti-automation systems.

[NukeMarine]

 

 

Except robbery is a criminal act, while Jagex would be issuing a civil suit against you. As far as I know, Jagex hasn't actually reach the level of court with any persons who bot/ people who distribute bots. Perhaps you could show me credible proof otherwise.

 

PS, I think the "You wouldn't steal a car" videos are equally foolish. You wouldn't steal a candy bar is more like it.

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/307200-jagex-limited-vimpulse-software-eric-snellman-and-mark-snellman/

 

everything in that video is true, you can actually get hard time for downloading. It also has alot to do with morals, breaking the law is breaking the law, just because its a small crime its not ok.

Just say "You wouldn't download a car" and "You wouldn't download a bike" to realize the idiocy of these ads and mentality. Really, it's the modern day equivalent of saying that taking a photo of someone is stealing their soul. You have not denied someone their property.

 

Now, it can be argued that by copying works of art and distributing them that you're interfering with the ability of the legal owning entity from making a just profit. However, the burden of proof falls more onto the copyright owner. Now, if you're turning a profit on another's copyright, then it's easier to show damage as that's easy proof of lost profit.

 

With bots, my understanding it's more about interfering with a just business. Not sure how you can compare to the real world, but maybe it's like scalping. A company floods a box office with people to buy up all the tickets to resell at a profit. Normal fans are denied a fair price for the same experience in that case. My problem here is if the company did not take reasonable methods to hinder such activities yet calls upon the government and courts to do the dirty work. Sort of like moaning about people stealing your property, because you held a lawn sale with only a sign 'Take what you want, pay inside for what you take'.

[Fresi]

[hide=quote]

 

 

Except robbery is a criminal act, while Jagex would be issuing a civil suit against you. As far as I know, Jagex hasn't actually reach the level of court with any persons who bot/ people who distribute bots. Perhaps you could show me credible proof otherwise.

 

PS, I think the "You wouldn't steal a car" videos are equally foolish. You wouldn't steal a candy bar is more like it.

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/307200-jagex-limited-vimpulse-software-eric-snellman-and-mark-snellman/

 

everything in that video is true, you can actually get hard time for downloading. It also has alot to do with morals, breaking the law is breaking the law, just because its a small crime its not ok.

Just say "You wouldn't download a car" and "You wouldn't download a bike" to realize the idiocy of these ads and mentality. Really, it's the modern day equivalent of saying that taking a photo of someone is stealing their soul. You have not denied someone their property.

 

Now, it can be argued that by copying works of art and distributing them that you're interfering with the ability of the legal owning entity from making a just profit. However, the burden of proof falls more onto the copyright owner. Now, if you're turning a profit on another's copyright, then it's easier to show damage as that's easy proof of lost profit.

 

With bots, my understanding it's more about interfering with a just business. Not sure how you can compare to the real world, but maybe it's like scalping. A company floods a box office with people to buy up all the tickets to resell at a profit. Normal fans are denied a fair price for the same experience in that case. My problem here is if the company did not take reasonable methods to hinder such activities yet calls upon the government and courts to do the dirty work. Sort of like moaning about people stealing your property, because you held a lawn sale with only a sign 'Take what you want, pay inside for what you take'.

[/hide]

 

you don't not seam to get the message, the commercial is about raising awareness that piracy is against the law. And I was trying to tell you that creating bots is against the law.

Digital items, such as movies, games, rs are all Items that can be compared to cars etz to bring forth that message. you can Compare destroying someones car to destroying a game by creating bots, you can compare it to running of with candy from a shop, burning down a building, assaulting someone. Comparing it to buying out all the tickets for a concert is silly tho, as that is not always against the law, unless its specifically forbidden to resell them, witch it some times is.

You can say anything to tell me otherwise, but that is what the law says, if you download a illegal copy of a movie, you might as well have run off with it from the store, your committing a crime either way, how bad those crimes where compared to each-otter dose not matter, you should not bend the law just because you feel "this is such a small crime", only in case of emergency may you bend the law, and last time i checked, not having enough time to play a game dose not count as an emergency.

Creating Bots for Runescape IS against the law. That is all that really had any discussion value in my post, so plz stop talking about bad real life comparison. Plz try and stay on topic.

 

Saying Jacmob has no skill is wrong. It takes impressive skill to automate a ton of the complex actions in the game, especially to continuously avoid detection from the anti-automation systems.

him creating a bot that dose all this Is not really a lifetime achievement award for a code writer. Still he might actually be very good at what he is doing, but I would rather prefer we leave that to those who actually work with him. I'm far more impressed by the work done on the anti-bot system, its harder to build something, than to break it.

 

Btw, great post jrhairychest :)

[Platinum_Myr]

Correct, I agree the anti-bot system deserves millions of times more credit than Jacmob's work originally. But that doesn't mean he has no skill. Whether his actions are moral or not is a different question.

[Stev]

Creating Bots for Runescape IS against the law.

Completely untrue. That's like saying creating hacks for FPS and other online games is against the law. It ain't.

[Vezon Dash]

Creating Bots for Runescape IS against the law.

Completely untrue. That's like saying creating hacks for FPS and other online games is against the law. It ain't.

 

Stealing a game script for a game to use for a bit is though. (I think :???: )

[Vezon Dash]

Correct, I agree the anti-bot system deserves millions of times more credit than Jacmob's work originally. But that doesn't mean he has no skill. Whether his actions are moral or not is a different question.

 

lol at talking about bots being immoral.

 

Reminds me about that guy who posted prebot nuke that he thought botters were as bad as rapists, and other people who would stop being friends with someone irl cause they bot.

 

Immoral? No. Against the spirit? Yes.

 

As for the second part.... I have never stopped being friends with any of my friends because they botted in Runescape, but I have lost respect for them. Cheating is cheating, and cheating is not condoned where I come from.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Creating Bots for Runescape IS against the law.

Completely untrue. That's like saying creating hacks for FPS and other online games is against the law. It ain't.

I was under the impression that it was, as per:

Judgment is entered in Jagexs favor and against Defendants on Count II of the First Amended Complaint Circumvention of Technological Measures Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

「circumvent a technological measure」 means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work

From how I read it, circumventing Jagex's anti-bot code is illegal. Though, I don't know much law, so I could very well be misunderstanding. Now, I don't know if RS's code was "scambled" pre-nuke, but it is for sure now. Meaning that bot makers are breaking DMCA, are they not?

[Radicap]

 

 

Except robbery is a criminal act, while Jagex would be issuing a civil suit against you. As far as I know, Jagex hasn't actually reach the level of court with any persons who bot/ people who distribute bots. Perhaps you could show me credible proof otherwise.

 

PS, I think the "You wouldn't steal a car" videos are equally foolish. You wouldn't steal a candy bar is more like it.

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/307200-jagex-limited-vimpulse-software-eric-snellman-and-mark-snellman/

 

everything in that video is true, you can actually get hard time for downloading. It also has alot to do with morals, breaking the law is breaking the law, just because its a small crime its not ok.

Just say "You wouldn't download a car" and "You wouldn't download a bike" to realize the idiocy of these ads and mentality. Really, it's the modern day equivalent of saying that taking a photo of someone is stealing their soul. You have not denied someone their property.

Saying that someone is stealing your soul by taking your photograph is a silly superstition. Saying that they are stealing from you if they download your intellectual work without paying for it is fact. It doesn't matter if you deprive someone of the use of their property, the buyer and seller must agree on the terms of purchase, and if those terms are not met then it's theft. The example you give below makes my point more obvious, but it's the same point even if you download solely for personal use.

 

Now, it can be argued that by copying works of art and distributing them that you're interfering with the ability of the legal owning entity from making a just profit. However, the burden of proof falls more onto the copyright owner. Now, if you're turning a profit on another's copyright, then it's easier to show damage as that's easy proof of lost profit.

With bots, my understanding it's more about interfering with a just business. Not sure how you can compare to the real world, but maybe it's like scalping. A company floods a box office with people to buy up all the tickets to resell at a profit. Normal fans are denied a fair price for the same experience in that case. My problem here is if the company did not take reasonable methods to hinder such activities yet calls upon the government and courts to do the dirty work. Sort of like moaning about people stealing your property, because you held a lawn sale with only a sign 'Take what you want, pay inside for what you take'.

So you're saying that expecting the courts to uphold the law is "dirty work?" We, as citizens, voluntarily give our right to retaliatory force to an objective government, which in this case means criminal and civil courts, in order to see to it that laws are upheld fairly and impartially. The only exception to this is self-defense in the event of immediate threats. This is not "dirty work," it's their job, and it's what our tax dollars pay for. (This is actually meant to be the function of a proper government. The myriad ways in which they fail and are getting worse is an entirely different matter.)

 

To bring this back to the issue of botting - setting aside for a bit the question of whether the bots themselves are illegal per-se, by playing Runescape one agrees to follow Jagex's rules, including the rule against botting. Those are the terms set by Jagex (the seller) and agreed to by the player (the buyer.) Therefore, the use of bots means that the player is not sticking to the terms of purchase agreed upon, and is therefore stealing from Jagex. It's that simple.

[Logdotzip]

Someone I know was in a Skype call with Jacmob a few days ago, and according to him, through Jacmob, Optimus is slated for May, but they may do a mass ban/mini nuke pre/during BXPW.

[Mercifull]

...but they may do a mass ban...

I really hope so. The first bot nuke was the warning/amnesty. Anyone still botting now should be insta-permban, no rollbacks, no temporary bans, no "paying" for unban, no excuses.

[NukeMarine]

Just say "You wouldn't download a car" and "You wouldn't download a bike" to realize the idiocy of these ads and mentality. Really, it's the modern day equivalent of saying that taking a photo of someone is stealing their soul. You have not denied someone their property.

Saying that someone is stealing your soul by taking your photograph is a silly superstition. Saying that they are stealing from you if they download your intellectual work without paying for it is fact. It doesn't matter if you deprive someone of the use of their property, the buyer and seller must agree on the terms of purchase, and if those terms are not met then it's theft. The example you give below makes my point more obvious, but it's the same point even if you download solely for personal use.

No, you are completely wrong. There's a musuem that OWNS the Mona Lisa. I can take photos of it all day and I'm not stealing a damn thing. Hell, they can lock up the painting and refuse to show it to the public, as is their right, but I can post and sell all the copies I want. I'm not stealing. I have to actually take or destroy the Mona Lisa to be charged with theft. Property is very clear in this matter. Now, copyright is a different issue. It's a concept enforced by most modern governments on the idea that a person should have the ability to justly profit from his/her creations for a reasonable amount of time. Violating copyright means you're interfering with the reasonable ability of another to profit off that intellectual work. At one time, fifteen years was reasonable. Now, thanks to corporations in the US pushing for longer limits we're at a juncture where no reasonable man can agree with the law as written.

Now, it can be argued that by copying works of art and distributing them that you're interfering with the ability of the legal owning entity from making a just profit. However, the burden of proof falls more onto the copyright owner. Now, if you're turning a profit on another's copyright, then it's easier to show damage as that's easy proof of lost profit.

With bots, my understanding it's more about interfering with a just business. Not sure how you can compare to the real world, but maybe it's like scalping. A company floods a box office with people to buy up all the tickets to resell at a profit. Normal fans are denied a fair price for the same experience in that case. My problem here is if the company did not take reasonable methods to hinder such activities yet calls upon the government and courts to do the dirty work. Sort of like moaning about people stealing your property, because you held a lawn sale with only a sign 'Take what you want, pay inside for what you take'.

So you're saying that expecting the courts to uphold the law is "dirty work?" We, as citizens, voluntarily give our right to retaliatory force to an objective government, which in this case means criminal and civil courts, in order to see to it that laws are upheld fairly and impartially. The only exception to this is self-defense in the event of immediate threats. This is not "dirty work," it's their job, and it's what our tax dollars pay for. (This is actually meant to be the function of a proper government. The myriad ways in which they fail and are getting worse is an entirely different matter.)

 

To bring this back to the issue of botting - setting aside for a bit the question of whether the bots themselves are illegal per-se, by playing Runescape one agrees to follow Jagex's rules, including the rule against botting. Those are the terms set by Jagex (the seller) and agreed to by the player (the buyer.) Therefore, the use of bots means that the player is not sticking to the terms of purchase agreed upon, and is therefore stealing from Jagex. It's that simple.

Yes, there's a common idea that you can drown people in lawsuits. Corporations are famous for it by submitting questionable lawsuits with thousands of defendents hoping for a quick out of court settlement. They also use lobbyists to push for changes in laws to benefit their own corporation at the expense of the people that actually elected the lawmakers. Look at what the DMCA actually does. It CRIMINALIZES the study and advancement of digital encryption/decryption. A field of work that could benefit the private citizen because some multimedia company is afraid their ten year old encryption scheme might get cracked (and already was). So yes, I consider there's reasonable situations where corporations are abusing the benefits of the judicial and legislative systems.

 

In all this, I'm not defending botting. However, I like how Jagex keeps it pretty much in house. The lawsuits seem to focus more on the use of their trademark. Plus, there's still an option open to Jagex to start enforcing fees for hours per month. I wouldn't cry if the monthly fee after 100 hours of play is $8 for 100 more hours, $16 for 200 hours, $32 for 300 hours, $65 for 400 hours, $130 for 500 additional hours of gameplay that month. That right there would penalize many high level bots that try to run 24/7 while only affecting a very small percentage that truly play more than 3 hours/day on average. Perhaps a grandfather clause could apply for fairness.