Q

[Sinkhan]

Should I just forget about maul (80k tokens away) and get claw right now if all I do is slay?

[Quyneax]

Err, probably, if you don't have another chaotic yet, and have eee.

[chenw]

EE will do, EEE only has a boosted healing, statwise it's the same (Claws and EE combo is better than every other Chaotic combo, barring momentum, because of the low accuracy of EE).

[Sinkhan]

Cclaw + EEE vs DW Cclaws is 3.8% less ability DPS, but 3.4% more AA DPS. EEE has heal, but claw has more accuracy and 0.9% crit.

 

First setup appears better for slayer for sure, but what about DW claws? Are they just a replacement for anywhere you'd use DW Cls (what scenarios would you use dual CLS)?

[Th e Doctor]

EE will do, EEE only has a boosted healing, statwise it's the same (Claws and EE combo is better than every other Chaotic combo, barring momentum, because of the low accuracy of EE).

 

Unless the changed it accuracy is only determined by your main hand weapon meaning if you use a drygore mace and a bronze offhand dagger, your offhand dagger will be just as accurate as your mace hence using a 1h chaotic mainhand and the eee is better dps than the maul/any dual wield chaotic combo (dual claws might be an exception due to the extra 1.8% crit) barring certain multitarget situations.

[Saradomin_Mage]

EEE cheats because it has the damage rating of a tier 89 offhand.

[Sinkhan]

I thought damage ratings were only relevant to AA DPS.

[Saradomin_Mage]

They're modified for ability DPS, reduced based on their speed ratings, so generally the most important thing to look out for is a high tier. EEE happens to be a level 70 weapon with level 70 accuracy buy level 89 off-hand damage.

[Ambler]

More like Jagex realised they couldn't make whip offhand, and needed a use for eee, so threw it in with the right stats at wrong speed. ;)

[chenw]

Unless the changed it accuracy is only determined by your main hand weapon meaning if you use a drygore mace and a bronze offhand dagger, your offhand dagger will be just as accurate as your mace hence using a 1h chaotic mainhand and the eee is better dps than the maul/any dual wield chaotic combo (dual claws might be an exception due to the extra 1.8% crit) barring certain multitarget situations.

 

Unless there is something I am missing in the Critical strike mechanics, a Crit will always hit for 120% of your max hit, which means it is, on average, 240% damage boost over none-critical hits (because non-crits have an average damage of 50% of your max hit). So every 1% crit is an extra 2.4% of your non-crit dps.

 

However the amount of damage difference between an off hand claw and a EE, assuming a main hand claw, is 8%, so you will need at least an extra 3.3% chance to crit on the off hand to counter balance that (in reality it's a bit more, since the overall dps increase with each successive % of crit improvement decreases as your % crit goes up), Claws only has 0.9%, not enough to cover it.

[Quyneax]

Crits are 75-125% max hit for autoattacks and 100% of max hit for abilities. Each % crit is 1% extra dps. You'll notice that ability crits are always the same, but auto crits aren't.

[Sinkhan]

They're modified for ability DPS, reduced based on their speed ratings, so generally the most important thing to look out for is a high tier. EEE happens to be a level 70 weapon with level 70 accuracy buy level 89 off-hand damage.

 

Apparently according to tests ability DPS is tied to weapon tier, not weapon damage.

 

Source

[Saradomin_Mage]

They're modified for ability DPS, reduced based on their speed ratings, so generally the most important thing to look out for is a high tier. EEE happens to be a level 70 weapon with level 70 accuracy buy level 89 off-hand damage.

 

Apparently according to tests ability DPS is tied to weapon tier, not weapon damage.

 

Source

They're tied to weapon tier in that they're tied to weapon damage and speed.

 

In a normal tier, you have (for 1h weapons)

1. Fastest (4 tick) weapons, with damage of 9.6*tier

2. Fast (5 tick) weapons, with damage of 12.25*tier

3. Average (6 tick) weapons, with damage of 14.9*tier

 

When you use an ability, a penalty is applied on any weapons slower than Fastest so that the damage is equalised because all abilities are the same speed. It's 20% for Fast weapons and 33% for Average weapons.

 

The EEE happens to be weird because it's

1. A tier 70 offhand weapon

2. Has tier 70 accuracy

3. Has tier 70 fast speed offhand damage (6.125*tier)

4. Has fastest speed.

 

So it doesn't get a penalty for speed because it's fastest.

 

You can compare it to a "real" level 70 offhand with the correct damage for speed, and you'll find that EEE comes ahead in damage output on abilities.

[Abdulla]

Q is e-dating gwyn.

 

dramaaaaa

[Saradomin_Mage]

u wish

[Thai_tong]

Crits are 75-125% max hit for autoattacks and 100% of max hit for abilities. Each % crit is 1% extra dps. You'll notice that ability crits are always the same, but auto crits aren't.

What do you mean 1% extra dps? I think you mean 1% added onto the cap.

I believe that crit bonus increases the chance of getting a crit hit because with they seem way more common when I'm slaying compared to when I'm testing stuff with 0 crit bonus gear.

[chenw]

Since your range of damage with anything (be it your auto attacks or abilities) spans from 0 to max hit of that particular attack (discounting misses), your 'average' damage per attack is 50% of your max hit for that attack.

 

For Abilities, when you crit, you are guarenteed to deal 100% of your max hit. Thus, if you want to work back words, 100% crit doubles your DPS (or if you will, 100% increase of your dps), and so every 1% of crit improves your dps by about 1%

[constrictor]

Q is e-dating gwyn.

 

dramaaaaa

 

Pics or didn't happen

[Quyneax]

Since your range of damage with anything (be it your auto attacks or abilities) spans from 0 to max hit of that particular attack (discounting misses), your 'average' damage per attack is 50% of your max hit for that attack.

 

For Abilities, when you crit, you are guarenteed to deal 100% of your max hit. Thus, if you want to work back words, 100% crit doubles your DPS (or if you will, 100% increase of your dps), and so every 1% of crit improves your dps by about 1%

Basically this, it's 1% of your base dps (non-crit), so of course 0% > 1% crit is more important than 99% > 100% crit, just like with the old strength bonus.

 

(also see below for more comments on ability min/max hits)

[Hedgehog]

Do we know the probability of a critical hit to occur?

[Sinkhan]

Since your range of damage with anything (be it your auto attacks or abilities) spans from 0 to max hit of that particular attack (discounting misses), your 'average' damage per attack is 50% of your max hit for that attack.

 

For Abilities, when you crit, you are guarenteed to deal 100% of your max hit. Thus, if you want to work back words, 100% crit doubles your DPS (or if you will, 100% increase of your dps), and so every 1% of crit improves your dps by about 1%

 

Crits on AAs have a min and max of 75% and 125% of the regular max hit, respectively. This still effectively means a 1 to 1 boost in DPS for crits, but the actual value for each crit isn't the normal max hit.

 

Abilities crit for 100% of the max hit, but abilities also hit a minimum of 25% their max. With a 62.5% average hit, crits only grant (100-62.5)/62.5 = 60% more DPS for ability use (as presented by cookmeplox). This should suggest that crit bonus is most valuable for momentum and a much less effective stat for ability use.

 

I haven't seen any of the data or testing methods presented by the author so I can't verify any of the claims.

[Quyneax]

^

Right, I saw that guide on Reddit you posted, if that's true ability crits are indeed a smaller dps increase.

 

@Hedge: no idea, pretty low though.

[Hedgehog]

You can't calculate the DPS boost of crits without knowing how often they occur.

[Quyneax]

Obviously, that's why we have the +1% base dps and a small inaccuracy :P. I think 'natural' crits are <5%, maybe only 1-2%. The difference isn't that huge. There's not much use for dps calcs anyway, ability routines are more important, as you have to change your routine based on what you hit anyway (e.g. an 800 slaughter hit non-moving means you can basically bleed a mithril dragon to 1/3 health).

[Quyneax]

Got Death Lotus hood, only two scrolls & ~30 plate for tetsu helm and all armour :).

 

Also 8pm gmt tonight, EoE vs PvmDG cw match.

 

Edit: after three games, EoE won (total score 9-8).

 

EoE Team

Ambler **

Bloodfever ****

Jeff Delu

Kiln ***

Mierin

Octarine

 

JD only played games 1 and 2, replaced by Bloodfever on game 3.

 

PvmDG Team

A Gardener

Caken *

Dragon

Meamzed **

Saj *

Tansuo ****

 

Gardener is not maxed combat, so the CW lobby system allows another player.

 

(* denote captures)

 

 

First game was even at 2-2. Both teams had one capture very early (defence? nah) and one much later, with tentative play on both sides. EoE had a close call, with the last, equalizing capture in the 17th minute.

 

Second game was equally even at 1-1, early captures largely blocked, more defensive play, but more certain. Longer periods of all-out defence and more barricades all around.

 

Third game had a team change at EoE's side, Bloodfever replacing Jeff Delu. In solid battle-mage armour, Blood captured four flags, leading to EoE's final and only win at 5-4.

 

For having the highest average captures per game, tied highest total captures, and most captures in any game, Bloodfever has been crowned MVP.

 

Thanks to all players for a great event and the good play especially :).

 

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Dragon totally owned Octarine.