Runefest - Insider Session Breaking Bots

[Sona]

Knowing Blizzard's methods - I don't think too many people will agree to it. Anonymity and such exists for a reason, and RuneScape has a completely different audience (mostly young teenagers, whereas WoW is mostly late teens).

 

Besides - it wouldn't even be very effective, all people have to do would be to sandbox a single file. It'll stop botters for a very short time.

 

Maybe 100 players who legitimately play, wont use it.

Of course lots of people will say they won't download it to scare Jagex because they want to keep botting.

 

I don't know how this program would work, but I think it will work better than their current bot detect system that detects all those bots at the moment.

 

Warden, Blizzard's program, is efficient, but Blizzard has a large active staff team who'll teleport players they suspect to be botting. If the player logs out or is suspicious, they're marked for further investigation. In many cases, the ban's outright a ban. Thus, Blizzard, at least, has the manpower to actively hunt down bots in game. It's the gold farmers that they have issues with, as the gold farmers are often legitimate players who, well, play 16 hours a day as their job.

 

In comparison to RS, the majority of Blizzard bots tend to be battlegrounds - except again, players actively report them because many of the BG bots do have flaws. When was the last time any of you reported a pest control or SC bot? Could you even tell? :P

[Assume Nothing]

Knowing Blizzard's methods - I don't think too many people will agree to it. Anonymity and such exists for a reason, and RuneScape has a completely different audience (mostly young teenagers, whereas WoW is mostly late teens).

 

Besides - it wouldn't even be very effective, all people have to do would be to sandbox a single file. It'll stop botters for a very short time.

 

Maybe 100 players who legitimately play, wont use it.

Of course lots of people will say they won't download it to scare Jagex because they want to keep botting.

 

I don't know how this program would work, but I think it will work better than their current bot detect system that detects all those bots at the moment.

 

You seem to be missing the point - a lot of the appeal to playing RuneScape is the accessibility of it. Forcing consumers to download an official client will not only alienate players - it'll also be alarming for parents that their child is using a browser which scans through the computer's memory. It's also a privacy concern, which is very serious given the amount of information on many home computers these days (even the minute chance is still worrying, as the consequences are so grave should it happen).

 

The point of fighting bots is to improve gameplay - if by attempting to remove bots, JaGex creates an alternate problem (which, given JaGex, isn't unlikely), then it's a complete waste of time and effort.

 

I see bots as a symptom - start tackling the real problem at hand, and the problem with bots will be gone. It also raises the question - was free trade ever necessary, and if so, worth it?

[Carl]

Knowing Blizzard's methods - I don't think too many people will agree to it. Anonymity and such exists for a reason, and RuneScape has a completely different audience (mostly young teenagers, whereas WoW is mostly late teens).

 

Besides - it wouldn't even be very effective, all people have to do would be to sandbox a single file. It'll stop botters for a very short time.

 

Maybe 100 players who legitimately play, wont use it.

Of course lots of people will say they won't download it to scare Jagex because they want to keep botting.

 

I don't know how this program would work, but I think it will work better than their current bot detect system that detects all those bots at the moment.

 

You seem to be missing the point - a lot of the appeal to playing RuneScape is the accessibility of it. Forcing consumers to download an official client will not only alienate players - it'll also be alarming for parents that their child is using a browser which scans through the computer's memory. It's also a privacy concern, which is very serious given the amount of information on many home computers these days (even the minute chance is still worrying, as the consequences are so grave should it happen).

 

The point of fighting bots is to improve gameplay - if by attempting to remove bots, JaGex creates an alternate problem (which, given JaGex, isn't unlikely), then it's a complete waste of time and effort.

 

I see bots as a symptom - start tackling the real problem at hand, and the problem with bots will be gone. It also raises the question - was free trade ever necessary, and if so, worth it?

 

It's not a concern for those who are actively playing RuneScape and would rather it was a game without bots.

 

It's still going to be accessible, nothing will change that fact. It won't alienate players at all, most people (I would presume) would be perfectly happy to download a program if it kept bots away for good. Alarming for parents? The fact their children are playing is bad enough if they're that age. They should be already aware with what their children are doing, and a program being downloaded alongside a game they're playing for countless hours per week's not going to raise that much concern, after all, it's just a game...Where's the worry?

 

I don't even think it's worth commenting on it being a security concern, because nothing will ever be released if there's a risk that your private information will be at risk. I think it would be safe to say there would be no risk involved, because every aspect will have been checked to ensure it's 100% safe, 99.9% won't be good enough.

[Assume Nothing]

A game without bots at a cost - more bandwidth consumption, higher hardware costs (e.g. better RAM, graphics cards, etc.), and other such issues. You have to realise that we're talking about the average player here.

 

Based on what I know of Blizzard's methods, it's not 'just a game/program' - it's something that scans your active memory at any given time. It may or may not compromise security - but I wouldn't want to take that risk. I wouldn't be so certain of how secure JaGex keeps their data either - the incentive may be much stronger if the data in question had a lot of value.

[Carl]

A game without bots at a cost - more bandwidth consumption, higher hardware costs (e.g. better RAM, graphics cards, etc.), and other such issues. You have to realise that we're talking about the average player here.

 

Based on what I know of Blizzard's methods, it's not 'just a game/program' - it's something that scans your active memory at any given time. It may or may not compromise security - but I wouldn't want to take that risk. I wouldn't be so certain of how secure JaGex keeps their data either - the incentive may be much stronger if the data in question had a lot of value.

 

Being against it for the sake of security concerns is being overly paranoid, if you ask me.

 

It's not going to put a strain on your hardware, or at least I wouldn't expect it to?

[Sona]

A game without bots at a cost - more bandwidth consumption, higher hardware costs (e.g. better RAM, graphics cards, etc.), and other such issues. You have to realise that we're talking about the average player here.

 

Based on what I know of Blizzard's methods, it's not 'just a game/program' - it's something that scans your active memory at any given time. It may or may not compromise security - but I wouldn't want to take that risk. I wouldn't be so certain of how secure JaGex keeps their data either - the incentive may be much stronger if the data in question had a lot of value.

 

Blizzard's program compromises security. Major antivirus companies classify it (used to, anyways) as a rootkit because it has the capable to read what's on your computer screen and check running processes. In AFAIK 2008 Blizzard settled out-of-court with certain antivirus companies. The condition? Warden would be taken off of their blacklists in exchange for an unknown amount of monetary exchange.

 

Blizzard's argument (somewhat valid) is that we already have your credit card information anyways. What else can I take from you?

 

Bottom line is that there's no way for Jagex to include something like this and work it into a browser.

[RoswellCrash]

A game without bots at a cost - more bandwidth consumption, higher hardware costs (e.g. better RAM, graphics cards, etc.), and other such issues. You have to realise that we're talking about the average player here.

 

Why would making it client only mean more bandwidth consumption or higher hardware cost? You're just making up mindless presumption based on your dislike for the idea.

 

Yes if they used a program that protected you like GG it would use slightly more memory, we are talking about the kind of memory that isn't noticeable anyway, as for the security risks who said it would be anything like the stuff Blizzard uses, and please everyone has software that scans your active processes. , there is one clear reason why it is a bad idea if you really feel so determined to shot down the idea and that is that it IS a blow to how the game is marketed and could possibly impact on the game and/or it's current players.

 

But more bandwidth consumption & needing a more powerful rig over a piece of software that runs alongside the client, total crap.

And that's presuming that it would be a stand alone program, what if it was just their client as it is now with just a few MB extra and a built-in program that monitors any interaction with itself.

 

The client as it stands is the best way to play the game, most secure & most stable platform.

[Assume Nothing]

You're failing to realise that it has to transit from a browser based game to a downloadable client based game in order to use that system. Even though there's an official RS client - it's still nothing like a downloadable game like WoW.

 

Also, please refrain from making unfounded allegations.

[Pete Party]

A game without bots at a cost - more bandwidth consumption, higher hardware costs (e.g. better RAM, graphics cards, etc.), and other such issues. You have to realise that we're talking about the average player here.

 

Based on what I know of Blizzard's methods, it's not 'just a game/program' - it's something that scans your active memory at any given time. It may or may not compromise security - but I wouldn't want to take that risk. I wouldn't be so certain of how secure JaGex keeps their data either - the incentive may be much stronger if the data in question had a lot of value.

 

Being against it for the sake of security concerns is being overly paranoid, if you ask me.

 

It's not going to put a strain on your hardware, or at least I wouldn't expect it to?

 

TBH I don't think the program actually sends the data to their server, I think it is more a encrypted handshake protocol.

 

 

Why can't a browsergame have this extra program, who said you need to be on a client for this to work?

[Riptide Mage]

And that's presuming that it would be a stand alone program, what if it was just their client as it is now with just a few MB extra and a built-in program that monitors any interaction with itself.

 

To monitor for interactions between programs requires a low level driver and cannot be done in java. It also cannot be done without a user downloading and installing a piece of software that requires administrative access on the computer.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Make random events where the IDs of objects change every 24 hours or every update. Allot a few thousand ID's to these random events to allow this.

They definitely have the ability to do this with the memory that they have.

 

I don't know how their current system is built, but they should work on a model that allows them to make invisible, uninteractible(?) objects within the game with the IDs of legit things, like dragons and trees.

 

These are both a technical solution, and therefor bot-programmers will eventually find a way to deal with them...

 

I was at the previous Runefest, and therefor know how one of them insider sessions look like...

If they should change anything in the format, they'd put a mic in the crowd that people can walk up to and ask their bot related question... That is, short of having an actual debate of a handful of selected players vs. the developpers...

 

So, "breaking bots" will either be something predictable, or revolutionary enough that it changes the game completely...

 

 

I agree with that, re-removing wilderness & free trade is an obvious part-fix, but I highly doubt they will go back on it. But desperate times, desperate measures & things are pretty desperate at the moment. As for something revolutionary, it's quite possible, something along lines of having a cheat detection program a requirement to play? That has the massive effect of having a download requirement though, and if that was to happen they might as well change the game to client based only, which could be potentially as destructive as re-removing wilderness & free trade.

 

As I have said many times, I have thought about it a lot, it's mind baffeling trying to find a fix that wont damage player numbers, but is it worth the risk in what has to be a declining legitimate player-base anyway?*

 

*personal opinion & not fact like some may state.

I did think of one (see here)... But in all honesty, Jagex shouldn't care if 70% of their current subscriber base walks out the door, as long as they fixed the problem enough that f2p (their main advertising bit for subscribing) is playable again... F2P-ers are where subscribers come from, keep that pool filled and you can drink from it forever...

[Assume Nothing]

I guess you've never studied Business. If a company's cashflow allows their balance to hit 0 (with no alternative methods of funding), it must liquidate it's assets and halt operation. Losing 70% of their playerbase almost certainly spells doom - that's millions of pounds worth of revenue gone.

 

I'm not too sure on the technical solutions, but I'm sure there could be something that tricks the BCEL Injectors they use to gather data every time the ID's get switched (which they do, every update). Or... use hidden surface algorithms at the graphical rendering pipelines, making interactable but invisible items that only a bot could see.

 

However, every proposed solution has a workaround. We are only delaying the inevitable.

 

Why couldn't JaGex realise that we must tackle the problem at it's roots, rather than treating the symptom?

[Crossed_Body]

Why couldn't JaGex realise that we must tackle the problem at it's roots, rather than treating the symptom?

Problem is, Java is easily reverse engineered, so I doubt they could halt bots on their tracks permanently due to no client access.

[Deathknell]

I guess you've never studied Business. If a company's cashflow allows their balance to hit 0 (with no alternative methods of funding), it must liquidate it's assets and halt operation. Losing 70% of their playerbase almost certainly spells doom - that's millions of pounds worth of revenue gone.

 

I'm not too sure on the technical solutions, but I'm sure there could be something that tricks the BCEL Injectors they use to gather data every time the ID's get switched (which they do, every update). Or... use hidden surface algorithms at the graphical rendering pipelines, making interactable but invisible items that only a bot could see.

 

However, every proposed solution has a workaround. We are only delaying the inevitable.

 

Why couldn't JaGex realise that we must tackle the problem at it's roots, rather than treating the symptom?

 

That would require them to do something about either. Not likely. <_<

[totalpwnage]

I've been lurking on some botting forums that will not be named.

 

Apparently JMods have been going around Barrows banning anyone that is a bot. That's a first.

[Ts_Stormrage]

^ but not a semi-permanent solution...

 

Btw skeptic, I pulled that 70% number out of my ass...

 

But, just as a sizeable portion kept playing when FT/W was removed, and just as a sizeable portion keeps on playing right now, I'll also think that a sizeable portion will continue to play whatever happens...

[RoswellCrash]

You're failing to realise that it has to transit from a browser based game to a downloadable client based game in order to use that system.  Even though there's an official RS client - it's still nothing like a downloadable game like WoW.

 

Also, please refrain from making unfounded allegations.

 

What, not really.

 

Why can't it be like the current client, why does it have to be a full game download client & not more like the current client? What's with all the WoW comparisons, who's saying it has to be anything like their client.

 

Please don't take my replys as a personal attack, it wasn't my intention. It certainly wasn't an allegation just an opinion based on your replies against the idea.

 

 

And that's presuming that it would be a stand alone program, what if it was just their client as it is now with just a few MB extra and a built-in program that monitors any interaction with itself.

 

To monitor for interactions between programs requires a low level driver and cannot be done in java.  It also cannot be done without a user downloading and installing a piece of software that requires administrative access on the computer.

 

 

That's not correct the client doesn't use or require Java as it is...  It can be done.

 

And as you said it would monitor interaction between programs, the client is a program it could monitor other programs interacting with it.

[Assume Nothing]

I'm uncertain on the technical aspects of it, but allegedly it has to transit to a downloadable client in order to implement the system. I don't know the answer to why this is the case, unfortunately. The comparisons between WoW is mainly made because that's the system Blizzard uses to catch bots.

 

Allegedly it may monitor other information, such as what's currently on your screen. I honestly don't think it's a wise idea - the system in question would monitor system processes and could allegedly take screenshots of your computer at any given time (needs verification). As a lot of us have a lot of confidential information on our computers - it's definitely considered a security risk.

 

@TS; Given that a large amount of revenue is offset by the costs of the business, even a small decrease in revenue (30-40%?) may be catastrophic for JaGex.

 

The only real solution would either be - a 'fixed' GE with trade limits, or free trade existing without the same incentive to bot. The market for RS gold is huge - reduce the demand for the market and the problem becomes exponentially smaller thus easier to deal with. The level of botting is so high at current rates that regardless of JaGex's efforts, there's no noticeable change in terms of play-ability.

[Blyaunte]

Off topic +1 – is anyone else experiencing massive lag when they happen to wander into or around areas where the botting is particularly bad?

 

For example, this past weekend my clan was "star finding", and every time I passed by the Varrock East Bank (where the ess-bots are operating en masse) I found the lag to be absolutely gawd-awful. Same thing applied when I passed through the Sorceress's Garden via the broom teleport.

 

It didn't vary from world to world either – any world in which I passed through these two points was just terribly laggy.

 

<.<

 

 

On Topic:

 

In comparison to RS, the majority of Blizzard bots tend to be battlegrounds - except again, players actively report them because many of the BG bots do have flaws. When was the last time any of you reported a pest control or SC bot? Could you even tell? :P

 

Actually, I stopped reporting bots ages ago when it was made abundantly clear to me that Jagex wasn't going to do anything about any such report.

 

Well – that and the fact that I was (unjustifiably) chastized by certain members of this forum for acknolwedging my own participation in such activity (i.e. bot reporting). As I recall, one side of the argument called me a "rat-fink", while the other side of the argument informed me that I was abusing the system and that pmods and jmods had better things to do than to respond to any such reports.

 

:unsure:

 

Ya know, in hindsight, it's little wonder why I've become so jaded, isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Pete Party]

^^

Nice, I can't say why because I lack knowledge but I know that it has to be done this way...???

 

And there you were sitting in a box thinking about how others do it, rather than thinking of how you want to do it and how that is possible.

[RoswellCrash]

I'm uncertain on the technical aspects of it, but allegedly it has to transit to a downloadable client in order to implement the system. I don't know the answer to why this is the case, unfortunately. The comparisons between WoW is mainly made because that's the system Blizzard uses to catch bots.

 

OK, I understand that part, but there is already a client, what I'm saying is that that client could become the only way to access RuneScape that client is small in size and already created, couldn't they create a program that is built into the existing client designed to monitor interaction with it. I understand this worry of security, but how many of us have never installed any other on-line game, they all have this kind of software in one form or another, COD, Crysis, Battlefield, FlyFF, WoW. All of these on-line games have a form of protecting be it PunkBuster or something else, granted they don't work 100%. The security risk is a minimal worry imo, you've got more chance of a security breach from outdated programs & browsing new websites. If your worried about them collecting information, as a British based company I pretty sure there software would come with a disclaimer & be protected under UK law, this isn't some doggy company set up in China or Russia, if you trust your Internet service provider, your anti-virus protecting you, your Skype, MSN or Yahoo messenger, hell if you trust windows what makes trusting Jagex a professional company based in a reputable country any different.

 

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm singling you out right now, this is the best way imo of testing each-others ideas is to pick faults in them in the hope we might discover something.

 

I understand that going back to the limited trade would kill of a lot of the bots, but it my no means stops them. I feel there is a massive culture at the moment of people that will continue to bot even if all RWT is removed, the amount of people that will continue to bot just for the skill capes is bigger than ever, what we need is a way to to detect bots and remove them from the game, I don't think there will ever be a system that will just halt them but we need a system of detection, obviously it will need to be maintained and updated but hopefully it will be more manageable. We need in game fixes and Jagex need to set up something to detect and fight against them with, not one or the other both. We need limits in the game to make it less appealing and a constant updating detection system to make it less appealing to those that would bot for personal gain. It's sad I like free trade, but it's abused and used way to much I think it's better without it unless Jagex can create a system that stops all abuse of free trade something that in reality is impossible.

 

--

 

Also Skeptic, if I am really misunderstanding what you we've been debating about with the client (I just see it as using the current client with an extra built in security feature) you're going to have to spoon feed it to me because I'm really not getting what you mean. My question is simple, the current client is small (10.4MB) and has the same requirements as RuneScape has now, why can't that be the future client but with a added inbuilt security feature that prevents/detects interaction with itself that would not require anything significant added to the requirements. The security feature itself would be what 6MB at most. (Based of off GameGuard being a 6.7MB program) yes it may require administrator privileges but how many games these days don't and after all this is a game, a game that seriously needs this kind of protective system in place.

 

I'm not saying it wont affect RS users that I know it will some people don't want the game to be download only, but that doesn't stop my point that being a client only game could be a step towards combating the problems with bots.

 

Edit: sorry I never meant to write that much, I probably repeating myself a bit too :blink:

[Assume Nothing]

I really don't know why it's a prerequisite - my judgement was based on what I was told by alleged 'experts' (which I've forgotten who they are, which really doesn't help).

 

Your post is a little too long to write a brief response to, I'll have to come back later.

[Karvinen]

And that's presuming that it would be a stand alone program, what if it was just their client as it is now with just a few MB extra and a built-in program that monitors any interaction with itself.

 

To monitor for interactions between programs requires a low level driver and cannot be done in java. It also cannot be done without a user downloading and installing a piece of software that requires administrative access on the computer.

You're forgetting that RS is a signed applet, which means that it can do everything that a native executable can do (including running native code). If Jagex wanted, they could make a drive-by installer for PunkBuster/equivalent (admin privileges are required for installing it, of course).

 

...

My question is simple, the current client is small (10.4MB)

...

The actual RuneScape client is about 250MB and it's usually installed at C:\.jagex_cache_32\runescape.

[Pete Party]

The fact that some people think that it is impossible to make a new security method that works with the browser makes me doubt those people.

 

All the things that are impossible hahaha!

[RoswellCrash]

 

...

My question is simple, the current client is small (10.4MB)

...

The actual RuneScape client is about 250MB and it's usually installed at C:\.jagex_cache_32\runescape.

 

The initial download of the client from their website is 10.4MB, the other parts of the game are downloaded as you play through it which takes a little bit of moving about (game downloads in segments as you move through it)

 

In response to the below post:

inb4 someone posts something original <_<