Runefest - Insider Session Breaking Bots

[GarryGarry]

i am sick of bots n sick of jagex talk about bots till i see action not just words i call bs on jagex do anything about bots

 

inb4 give us same info like they always do

[Riptide Mage]

That's not correct the client doesn't use or require Java as it is... It can be done.

 

 

The downloadable client has a jre built into it, hence why you don't have to download java separately.

 

And that's presuming that it would be a stand alone program, what if it was just their client as it is now with just a few MB extra and a built-in program that monitors any interaction with itself.

 

To monitor for interactions between programs requires a low level driver and cannot be done in java. It also cannot be done without a user downloading and installing a piece of software that requires administrative access on the computer.

You're forgetting that RS is a signed applet, which means that it can do everything that a native executable can do (including running native code). If Jagex wanted, they could make a drive-by installer for PunkBuster/equivalent (admin privileges are required for installing it, of course).

 

Java itself cannot run native code, it can execute a separate, native, program which in return provides output to the java applet, but java itself cannot access any of the things required to emulate programs like punkbuster. The entire point of runescape as a java applet is to be able to play it on any system without having to install anything or have any special privileges.

[Sir_Squab]

Inasmuch as the overwhelming numbers of obvious bots has demonstrated that your current methods of bot reduction and elimination are clearly not working, don't you think it's time to unveil those aspects of your "secret operations" for bot reduction to the general public, in order that your methods can be critiqued and thereby improved upon?

 

Got to disagree with that. Less information released to big audiences, the better they can keep bot scripters from finding workarounds before they're even implemented, wouldn't you think? Aren't all these insider sessions locked down by legal agreements not to talk about it?

 

F that. They need to make a video of this bot discussion. I understand the need for secrecy on anti-bot measures, because they more that is known about the anti-bot measures the easier it is to find a way to circumvent it, but still.

 

I've got a question..

 

Apart from the whole "Herpderp they only want money", why would bots only (or mostly) get rolled back/reset instead of perm banned?

 

They've answered that before. Because sometimes loyal, honest players get tempted to the dark side (aka botting) and they think it's rather unfair to perm-ban someone who is/was a loyal and longtime player simply for one infraction. Which is actually understandable, if it wasn't for the rampant botting abuse it caused. Or maybe they just starting that to get more money from botters, idk.

[Kimberly]

They need to make a video of this bot discussion.

 

I would pay a small amount to watch a live stream of it, honestly, and they could make it available to those who only live outside of the UK. And I'm actually quite shocked they haven't come up with this idea before since they can't feasibly host RuneFests in other countries while forking back the cost of the ticket.

[Doomster]

The only way to clean the bots, is to be prepared to accept some collateral damage, such as geo-ip blocking countries where the goldfarming is huge, and the actual gamers are on their home grown MMOs.

[RoswellCrash]

The only way to clean the bots, is to be prepared to accept some collateral damage, such as geo-ip blocking countries where the goldfarming is huge, and the actual gamers are on their home grown MMOs.

 

But Jagex are a British company not the Chinese Government, Geo-IP blocking is a step I doubt they'd take, it's discriminatory in my opinion.

 

 

And that's presuming that it would be a stand alone program, what if it was just their client as it is now with just a few MB extra and a built-in program that monitors any interaction with itself.

 

To monitor for interactions between programs requires a low level driver and cannot be done in java. It also cannot be done without a user downloading and installing a piece of software that requires administrative access on the computer.

You're forgetting that RS is a signed applet, which means that it can do everything that a native executable can do (including running native code). If Jagex wanted, they could make a drive-by installer for PunkBuster/equivalent (admin privileges are required for installing it, of course).

 

Java itself cannot run native code, it can execute a separate, native, program which in return provides output to the java applet, but java itself cannot access any of the things required to emulate programs like punkbuster. The entire point of runescape as a java applet is to be able to play it on any system without having to install anything or have any special privileges.

 

First of all you said it couldnt be done, now your saying it can be done but not with Java, which is what we was suggesting anyway.

 

You seem to know a fair bit about Java & have proven useful, so I got a genuine question, the client itself isn't Java it just holds & runs the java much like a web browser?

 

Presuming I'm thinking correctly there, can't they create a program that monitors any interaction with the client?

 

Obviously that would require installation & administrator rights, if you can answer that it would finally answer the question I've been asking.

[obidiah]

They need to make a video of this bot discussion.

 

I would pay a small amount to watch a live stream of it, honestly, and they could make it available to those who only live outside of the UK. And I'm actually quite shocked they haven't come up with this idea before since they can't feasibly host RuneFests in other countries while forking back the cost of the ticket.

 

Well last year they allowed videoing of Runefest - so there are playermade videos of most of the sessions on Youtube. Not live streams admittedly - but it does mean you at least get to hear what was said.

[NukeMarine]

Only a few suggestions but they seem easy enough to implement with minimal impact on players:

 

1. Considering there are tens of thousands of players on the game that aren't bots, could it hurt to give out tools that actively work against bots? Nothing fancy, just something like the ring of stone where the character turns into an NPC or tree or other harvestable item in addition to fake drops that lure bots. Imagine a bunch of fake dragon bones or infernal ashes thrown about on top of a player pretending to be the fourth mithril rock that wouldn't fool a real player but bots may have issue with figuring out.

 

2. While they're at it, TELL PLAYERS when botters they personally reported (even if it wasn't their report that caused it) get punished and/or banned. Hell, give them anti-bot points or even a cape and you'll find players climbing over each other to report and hinder bots. People love to know when their efforts are effective and even better when appreciated.

 

3. Also, make character creation a lengthy process like before UNLESS it's sponsored in some way by an active account. It's a small thing, but helps making useful throwaway accounts more difficult.

 

4. Sounds harsh, but just completely remove bots and rolled back players from the high scores , although they can still be viewed when looked up individually. Remove ability to wear any type of milestone cape or equipment on top of that.

[Blyaunte]

They need to make a video of this bot discussion.

 

I would pay a small amount to watch a live stream of it, honestly, and they could make it available to those who only live outside of the UK. And I'm actually quite shocked they haven't come up with this idea before since they can't feasibly host RuneFests in other countries while forking back the cost of the ticket.

 

Well last year they allowed videoing of Runefest - so there are playermade videos of most of the sessions on Youtube. Not live streams admittedly - but it does mean you at least get to hear what was said.

 

Whatever way it works out -- I want to see a video of whatever formal statement(s) is/are issued and whatever discussion ensues therefrom ...

 

:shades:

[Sona]

But Jagex are a British company not the Chinese Government, Geo-IP blocking is a step I doubt they'd take, it's discriminatory in my opinion.

 

There are entire provinces in China and India that are IP blocked due to goldfarming. Judging from some of the international hubs I occasionally frequent (speaking many, many languages help here), Jagex smashes RWT traders extremely hard if they're not from a UK/US based IP. Someone bought gold and a day later they were banned, and they proceeded to rage on forums because of it. The amount he bought? 15 mil.

 

Goldfarming groups tend to be based in certain Asian countries and certain eastern European countries. The amount you see in the US is but a small fraction.

 

2. While they're at it, TELL PLAYERS when botters they personally reported (even if it wasn't their report that caused it) get punished and/or banned. Hell, give them anti-bot points or even a cape and you'll find players climbing over each other to report and hinder bots. People love to know when their efforts are effective and even better when appreciated.

 

There's a reason why vigilante justice didn't work out in medieval Europe. There's also a reason why Batman exists only in fiction. If the reward is insignificant, you reduce psychological incentive for a player to carry out an act - that's been proven. If the reward is too significant, you open the floodgates to totally different problems that would not have existed prior to implementation of such a practice. Paranoia. Flooding of reports. False reports.

 

Tell me. How would you like it if someone ran up to you and asked "r u bot? answer or I REPORT U"?

 

"I don't mind," you'll probably say.

 

Good. Now imagine this happening every five minutes, day after day after day after day. A player should not be forced to interact with people he or she doesn't wish to interact with. I personally find it more enlightening to read CNN comments than interacting in any way with say, Ipkurmom1337.

 

There's a reason why some of us simply play with public off. ;)

[Kimberly]

They need to make a video of this bot discussion.

 

I would pay a small amount to watch a live stream of it, honestly, and they could make it available to those who only live outside of the UK. And I'm actually quite shocked they haven't come up with this idea before since they can't feasibly host RuneFests in other countries while forking back the cost of the ticket.

 

Well last year they allowed videoing of Runefest - so there are playermade videos of most of the sessions on Youtube. Not live streams admittedly - but it does mean you at least get to hear what was said.

 

Oh, I know, but it just seems like an untapped chance of a little profit to give their international players a 'runefest' like experience :)

[NukeMarine]

2. While they're at it, TELL PLAYERS when botters they personally reported (even if it wasn't their report that caused it) get punished and/or banned. Hell, give them anti-bot points or even a cape and you'll find players climbing over each other to report and hinder bots. People love to know when their efforts are effective and even better when appreciated.

 

There's a reason why vigilante justice didn't work out in medieval Europe. There's also a reason why Batman exists only in fiction. If the reward is insignificant, you reduce psychological incentive for a player to carry out an act - that's been proven. If the reward is too significant, you open the floodgates to totally different problems that would not have existed prior to implementation of such a practice. Paranoia. Flooding of reports. False reports.

 

Tell me. How would you like it if someone ran up to you and asked "r u bot? answer or I REPORT U"?

 

"I don't mind," you'll probably say.

 

Good. Now imagine this happening every five minutes, day after day after day after day. A player should not be forced to interact with people he or she doesn't wish to interact with. I personally find it more enlightening to read CNN comments than interacting in any way with say, Ipkurmom1337.

 

There's a reason why some of us simply play with public off. ;)

Umm, we're talking an electronic landscape. It is a fictional setting so Batman is closer than medieval Europe if we're going for analogies. Anyway, it's not a problem assuming Jagex approaches player reports in a smart way. Basically, reports FROM older, established accounts that have skill levels and quest points should take priority when it comes to looking at it. In addition, younger accounts (the one's likely doing "r u bot" type detective work) that actually were legit reports can be tagged as reliable.

 

Being reported is not a problem. Jagex isn't going "Wow, this account has 100 reports on it, it must be a bot". It's looking at the character actions. So yeah, you're not forced to talk to players.

 

Now, programming wise, I'm wondering if Jagex has the ability to let each server different item numbers. It then randomly resets servers (small amount) and changes item numbers which pushes off bots. Shouldn't be much problem tracking accounts that don't log back onto reset servers. For fun, Jagex could lock highly suspect accounts to only those servers.

[pal2002]

I would not pay jagex a dime to watch this session - they already make so much off the cheaters they refuse to perm ban to make even more money off me to listen to their 'insider strategy' against bots.

 

Unfortunately, the fanboys will go to this session and proclaim how jagex hate bots even though the truth is right in front of them, a few clicks away.

[Sona]

Umm, we're talking an electronic landscape. It is a fictional setting so Batman is closer than medieval Europe if we're going for analogies. Anyway, it's not a problem assuming Jagex approaches player reports in a smart way. Basically, reports FROM older, established accounts that have skill levels and quest points should take priority when it comes to looking at it. In addition, younger accounts (the one's likely doing "r u bot" type detective work) that actually were legit reports can be tagged as reliable.

Being reported is not a problem. Jagex isn't going "Wow, this account has 100 reports on it, it must be a bot". It's looking at the character actions. So yeah, you're not forced to talk to players.

 

Now, programming wise, I'm wondering if Jagex has the ability to let each server different item numbers. It then randomly resets servers (small amount) and changes item numbers which pushes off bots. Shouldn't be much problem tracking accounts that don't log back onto reset servers. For fun, Jagex could lock highly suspect accounts to only those servers.

 

I see what you're getting at. So you suggest a trust-based system where Jagex gives increased priority/other benefits to players who consistently display adequate behavior when it comes to reporting? Sounds very ... disciplined. :P

 

As for the scrambling of IDs, I think it's been discussed elsewhere. The consensus is that if it's doable/practical/productive, Jagex would have done it already. So ... I'll leave it up to you to think about the implications.

[RoswellCrash]

I would not pay jagex a dime to watch this session - they already make so much off the cheaters they refuse to perm ban to make even more money off me to listen to their 'insider strategy' against bots.

 

Unfortunately, the fanboys will go to this session and proclaim how jagex hate bots even though the truth is right in front of them, a few clicks away.

 

Well you've never really had anything positive to say about anything RS or Jagex related so it's not a huge shock.

 

And I doubt they would want a dime, that's like 0.63 of a penny :P

[pal2002]

I would not pay jagex a dime to watch this session - they already make so much off the cheaters they refuse to perm ban to make even more money off me to listen to their 'insider strategy' against bots.

 

Unfortunately, the fanboys will go to this session and proclaim how jagex hate bots even though the truth is right in front of them, a few clicks away.

 

Well you've never really had anything positive to say about anything RS or Jagex related so it's not a huge shock.

 

And I doubt they would want a dime, that's like 0.63 of a penny :P

 

Well, you're not one of the 10+ ppl I got into RS - 6 or 7 them of went on to buy membership.

That was before. This is now.

 

The new Jagex deserve all the crap I throw at them.

[Carl]

I would not pay jagex a dime to watch this session - they already make so much off the cheaters they refuse to perm ban to make even more money off me to listen to their 'insider strategy' against bots.

 

Unfortunately, the fanboys will go to this session and proclaim how jagex hate bots even though the truth is right in front of them, a few clicks away.

 

Well you've never really had anything positive to say about anything RS or Jagex related so it's not a huge shock.

 

And I doubt they would want a dime, that's like 0.63 of a penny :P

 

Well, you're not one of the 10+ ppl I got into RS - 6 or 7 them of went on to buy membership.

That was before. This is now.

 

The new Jagex deserve all the crap I throw at them.

 

The real Jagex doesn't read the [cabbage] you post.

[Kimberly]

The real Jagex doesn't read the [cabbage] you post.

 

Nor do they read yours. Or mine. Or anything else with any regularity. What's your point?

[Ts_Stormrage]

The real Jagex doesn't read the [cabbage] you post.

 

Nor do they read yours. Or mine. Or anything else with any regularity. What's your point?

Not true, I had a response from Jagex on my article on a potential botting solution early this year...

[Deathknell]

The real Jagex doesn't read the [cabbage] you post.

 

Nor do they read yours. Or mine. Or anything else with any regularity. What's your point?

Not true, I had a response from Jagex on my article on a potential botting solution early this year...

 

"Can we steal it from you, not give you credit, and then claim that we came up with it and anyone who says else is a liar?"

 

Thanks,

Jagex

[Carl]

The real Jagex doesn't read the [cabbage] you post.

 

Nor do they read yours. Or mine. Or anything else with any regularity. What's your point?

 

Forum's riddled with people who no longer play the game, but feel the need to add their mouthful into every RuneScape thread. This brings down the atmosphere within the forums, when they're going on the false beliefs that Jagex is taking their words into consideration.

 

That's my point.

[Kimberly]

The real Jagex doesn't read the [cabbage] you post.

 

Nor do they read yours. Or mine. Or anything else with any regularity. What's your point?

 

Forum's riddled with people who no longer play the game, but feel the need to add their mouthful into every RuneScape thread. This brings down the atmosphere within the forums, when they're going on the false beliefs that Jagex is taking their words into consideration.

 

That's my point.

 

The forum is also filled with people who play and have extremely stupid ideas and points (not you) who like to shove them down others throats with gusto.

 

Youre in a community with a wide audience. That's why most communities have some sort of ignore feature. You're not going to like everyone you encounter.

[Carl]

The real Jagex doesn't read the [cabbage] you post.

 

Nor do they read yours. Or mine. Or anything else with any regularity. What's your point?

 

Forum's riddled with people who no longer play the game, but feel the need to add their mouthful into every RuneScape thread. This brings down the atmosphere within the forums, when they're going on the false beliefs that Jagex is taking their words into consideration.

 

That's my point.

 

The forum is also filled with people who play and have extremely stupid ideas and points (not you) who like to shove them down others throats with gusto.

 

Youre in a community with a wide audience. That's why most communities have some sort of ignore feature. You're not going to like everyone you encounter.

 

The fansite's also filled with people who play. That's the main point. If you show no interest in playing, why must you remain trying to bring down everyone else? Spamming useless threads and posting false information? I think it would be rather ignorant to think this forum should be filled with people who don't have ideas who play the game. You don't purchase seasonal tickets for a football team only to go, sit where all of their supporters sit, and wave big flags saying how appalling that team is. It's not the best analogy, but it's something similar to what's going on here. The problem's gradually getting worse, soon it will be TruthScape all over again.

[Llavada]

The fansite's also filled with people who play. That's the main point. If you show no interest in playing, why must you remain trying to bring down everyone else? Spamming useless threads and posting false information? I think it would be rather ignorant to think this forum should be filled with people who don't have ideas who play the game. You don't purchase seasonal tickets for a football team only to go, sit where all of their supporters sit, and wave big flags saying how appalling that team is. It's not the best analogy, but it's something similar to what's going on here. The problem's gradually getting worse, soon it will be TruthScape all over again.

 

Why are you slagging off TruthScape? That was an awesome site (and indeed it still exists under the name RuneScoop).

 

It told the truth about the game, although many people didn't like that. And Qeltar didn't sell his soul for Gold or Platinum status from Jagex - unlike certain sites.

[Carl]

The fansite's also filled with people who play. That's the main point. If you show no interest in playing, why must you remain trying to bring down everyone else? Spamming useless threads and posting false information? I think it would be rather ignorant to think this forum should be filled with people who don't have ideas who play the game. You don't purchase seasonal tickets for a football team only to go, sit where all of their supporters sit, and wave big flags saying how appalling that team is. It's not the best analogy, but it's something similar to what's going on here. The problem's gradually getting worse, soon it will be TruthScape all over again.

 

Why are you slagging off TruthScape? That was an awesome site (and indeed it still exists under the name RuneScoop).

 

It told the truth about the game, although many people didn't like that. And Qeltar didn't sell his soul for Gold or Platinum status from Jagex - unlike certain sites.

 

I'm not at all slagging off of RuneScoop/TruthScape, I did indeed enjoy some of his articles. I'm moreso referring to the userbase that frequented the site from what I remember. They weren't particularly fans of the game/Jagex, and that was a common opinion.

 

You referring to being a fan-site as "Selling your soul" for a status...Is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

EDIT: Oh, and your signature. Exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about above.