09-Nov-2011 - Bot-Busting Update: Legal Proceedings

[Crossed_Body]

You don't find it odd how:

Mod MMG advertised RSBuddy on the RSoF?

Jacmob knew since the nuke that he would not return his bot, but chose to lie about it.

Jacmob now claims to be working with Jagex to prevent bots in the future.

RSBuddy does a complete 180 and is now a RuneScape fansite.

 

^ Smell something fishy?

I'd rather not dwell on issues I'll never know the truth of, to be honest. If he is working for Jagex, all the better for him, I just wish he hadn't lied to his costumers like he did.

[stonewall337]

TBH also I think it's a little weird that RSbuddy is now the most advertised fansite on entire RuneScape.

I wouldn't even be surprised of more J-mods have ever heard about RSbuddy nowadays as about Tip.it for example, especially in about 2 years when 50% of the J-mods from now left the building again I'm affraid RSbuddy is just getting more and more popular by noobs even though we all know how that started.

All such actions make me sometimes wish Jagex was a compagnie with max 20 peoples working in it and all of them listening to Andrew.

 

Honestly, most J mods probably know about most of the popular fansites.

 

Up Next: Jagex sues each player who uses foul language in Runescape for $10,000 for each offense :lol:

 

Although from my own research I can say with confidence that Jagex did obtain player information illegally and will lose a DMCA suit on individual players.

 

You don't seem to realize that Jagex probably had half a dozen (or more) lawyers/law-firms which they probably paid $10,000+ to each of them to make sure they didn't obtain it illegally?

 

You know what about law? And you know Jagex has lots of lawyers being paid 10000+ each from where? Stop making things up and use legal precedent, current copyright law, and current cases to prove your point. Otherwise you are just blowing wind and proving nothing.

[RoswellCrash]

I know my RuneScape account isn't the best, but I'm proud to say I did it all by myself legitimately. We all have to be proud of something right?

 

If this was Tumblr that would get a million reblogs, and that is what it's all about.

My account might not be maxed or rich. But it's mine and no one else has one like it :)

[mikeg0477]

I know my RuneScape account isn't the best, but I'm proud to say I did it all by myself legitimately. We all have to be proud of something right?

 

If this was Tumblr that would get a million reblogs, and that is what it's all about.

My account might not be maxed or rich. But it's mine and no one else has one like it :)

Well said.

[Sir_Squab]

TBH also I think it's a little weird that RSbuddy is now the most advertised fansite on entire RuneScape.

I wouldn't even be surprised of more J-mods have ever heard about RSbuddy nowadays as about Tip.it for example, especially in about 2 years when 50% of the J-mods from now left the building again I'm affraid RSbuddy is just getting more and more popular by noobs even though we all know how that started.

All such actions make me sometimes wish Jagex was a compagnie with max 20 peoples working in it and all of them listening to Andrew.

 

Honestly, most J mods probably know about most of the popular fansites.

 

Up Next: Jagex sues each player who uses foul language in Runescape for $10,000 for each offense :lol:

 

Although from my own research I can say with confidence that Jagex did obtain player information illegally and will lose a DMCA suit on individual players.

 

You don't seem to realize that Jagex probably had half a dozen (or more) lawyers/law-firms which they probably paid $10,000+ to each of them to make sure they didn't obtain it illegally?

 

You know what about law? And you know Jagex has lots of lawyers being paid 10000+ each from where? Stop making things up and use legal precedent, current copyright law, and current cases to prove your point. Otherwise you are just blowing wind and proving nothing.

 

The $10,000 was made up, but honestly... I don't need to do research to know that Jagex is paying several lawyers and/or one or more law firms to help them with this case, who presumably know more about the law and put more effort into it then you do, considering it's their job and lively-hood. Thus, I find legal discussions on these forums kinda pointless.

 

-shrugs-

[Robert_R]

Still If Jagex can sue you for botting what is stopping them for sueing you for cussing?

Because that's not against the rules anymore.

[Sir_Squab]

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure you're "if Jagex sues botters for botting, they can sue swearers for swearing" is an example of Reductio ad absurdum, the logical fallacy of extending someone's argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticizing the result. Since I started arguing anyways, the rest is now in a hide tag.

 

 

Well, for one thing, I'm fairly sure the legal technicalities of their case against botters has to do with the fact that reflection bots, i.e. the bot that, say, 98% of bot users used, involves looking at and using RuneScape's code. Thus, Jagex is suing the botters for copyright infringement or something.

 

We don't really use game code to swear, unless "playing the game on your computer" constitutes copyright infringement. Assuming Jagex could pull that off, they'd be essentially suing their users for playing the game.

 

Furthermore, Jagex has this whole amnesty thing going on, where if someone promises not to bot, they won't sue them. Thus, it isn't so much "you broke rules so we're suing you" type deal, it's more of a "cease and desist" order. So they're setting a precedent that they will only sue you if you decide to continue breaking the rules AFTER threatening to sue them.

 

In all honesty, a more likely way for them to get, say, $20 every time we swear is simply a ToS change for members. Kinda similar to how botters (at least some people at one point) could pay RL cash to unban their account.

 

But this is also likely to be economic suicide, because if people realize they can get charged $20 a month for swearing, they'll probably quit.

 

[NukeMarine]

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure you're "if Jagex sues botters for botting, they can sue swearers for swearing" is an example of Reductio ad absurdum, the logical fallacy of extending someone's argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticizing the result. Since I started arguing anyways, the rest is now in a hide tag.

 

 

Well, for one thing, I'm fairly sure the legal technicalities of their case against botters has to do with the fact that reflection bots, i.e. the bot that, say, 98% of bot users used, involves looking at and using RuneScape's code. Thus, Jagex is suing the botters for copyright infringement or something.

 

We don't really use game code to swear, unless "playing the game on your computer" constitutes copyright infringement. Assuming Jagex could pull that off, they'd be essentially suing their users for playing the game.

 

Furthermore, Jagex has this whole amnesty thing going on, where if someone promises not to bot, they won't sue them. Thus, it isn't so much "you broke rules so we're suing you" type deal, it's more of a "cease and desist" order. So they're setting a precedent that they will only sue you if you decide to continue breaking the rules AFTER threatening to sue them.

 

In all honesty, a more likely way for them to get, say, $20 every time we swear is simply a ToS change for members. Kinda similar to how botters (at least some people at one point) could pay RL cash to unban their account.

 

But this is also likely to be economic suicide, because if people realize they can get charged $20 a month for swearing, they'll probably quit.

 

Here's the one thing working against Jagex: They claim they own the account and can do anything they want with it. They're saying in court: we freely gave the customers access to this account, we don't like how they used it, we kept giving them access to this and other accounts, please help us stop them from using stuff we voluntarily gave them and can easily take away from them.

 

It's one of those 'want your cake and eat it too'. It's the very thing I hate how DMCA is being abused. Essentially it's: we don't want to make our product secure, we want to waste the tax dollars of US and Europe in court cost instead to financially force people to not exploit our unsecure product since that's cheaper than using our own resources to secure our own product. I was very proud of the technological leap Jagex did with the Bot Nuke. Now they're doing this 18th century legal thugery which just shames them.

 

Jagex, it's a TOS. If you don't like how people use YOUR ACCOUNT then stop letting them use YOUR ACCOUNT. Unless you prove that you didn't give them access to YOUR ACCOUNT and they stole it, this is purely inaction on YOUR PART.

[Kata_Phfract__the_slayer]

I have to read this entire thing with a pinch of salt, or a few.

 

But over all, I see this is mostly good light. I did find it strange that RSBuddy was going to be let off so easy, but I suppose if they do keep true to never cheating again, then why not? at the very least they are not a platinum site like tipit :thumbsup:

 

In the end, after all has been said and done, I dont much care if botters have been sued or not, just as long as the game is once more clean. That is why we are here after all, RuneScape, we cant fix the real world so we might as well fix this one.

[stonewall337]

TBH also I think it's a little weird that RSbuddy is now the most advertised fansite on entire RuneScape.

I wouldn't even be surprised of more J-mods have ever heard about RSbuddy nowadays as about Tip.it for example, especially in about 2 years when 50% of the J-mods from now left the building again I'm affraid RSbuddy is just getting more and more popular by noobs even though we all know how that started.

All such actions make me sometimes wish Jagex was a compagnie with max 20 peoples working in it and all of them listening to Andrew.

 

Honestly, most J mods probably know about most of the popular fansites.

 

Up Next: Jagex sues each player who uses foul language in Runescape for $10,000 for each offense :lol:

 

Although from my own research I can say with confidence that Jagex did obtain player information illegally and will lose a DMCA suit on individual players.

 

You don't seem to realize that Jagex probably had half a dozen (or more) lawyers/law-firms which they probably paid $10,000+ to each of them to make sure they didn't obtain it illegally?

 

You know what about law? And you know Jagex has lots of lawyers being paid 10000+ each from where? Stop making things up and use legal precedent, current copyright law, and current cases to prove your point. Otherwise you are just blowing wind and proving nothing.

 

The $10,000 was made up, but honestly... I don't need to do research to know that Jagex is paying several lawyers and/or one or more law firms to help them with this case, who presumably know more about the law and put more effort into it then you do, considering it's their job and lively-hood. Thus, I find legal discussions on these forums kinda pointless.

 

-shrugs-

 

Sure, and I find all your fallacies pointless, as they add nothing to the topic. Jagex is using this as a scare tactic. At least I back up any opinion I have on this topic with facts and evidence, instead of pulling numbers out of thin air in an attempt to give my ludicrous claims credence.

[Kimberly]

If it's evidence needed on successful prosecutions under DMCA, there's far too many suits winning for this 'scare tactic' to be quite successful in doing just that, isn't there?

[Sir_Squab]

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure you're "if Jagex sues botters for botting, they can sue swearers for swearing" is an example of Reductio ad absurdum, the logical fallacy of extending someone's argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticizing the result. Since I started arguing anyways, the rest is now in a hide tag.

 

 

Well, for one thing, I'm fairly sure the legal technicalities of their case against botters has to do with the fact that reflection bots, i.e. the bot that, say, 98% of bot users used, involves looking at and using RuneScape's code. Thus, Jagex is suing the botters for copyright infringement or something.

 

We don't really use game code to swear, unless "playing the game on your computer" constitutes copyright infringement. Assuming Jagex could pull that off, they'd be essentially suing their users for playing the game.

 

Furthermore, Jagex has this whole amnesty thing going on, where if someone promises not to bot, they won't sue them. Thus, it isn't so much "you broke rules so we're suing you" type deal, it's more of a "cease and desist" order. So they're setting a precedent that they will only sue you if you decide to continue breaking the rules AFTER threatening to sue them.

 

In all honesty, a more likely way for them to get, say, $20 every time we swear is simply a ToS change for members. Kinda similar to how botters (at least some people at one point) could pay RL cash to unban their account.

 

But this is also likely to be economic suicide, because if people realize they can get charged $20 a month for swearing, they'll probably quit.

 

 

The lawsuit isnt about those who interacted with the game code it was given to everyone who purchased bot services (regardless or whether or not it was used). At least one person who recieved the email didnt use this software (please dont source me, im obviously not going to post their name). So my argument is that if they can sue for breaking ingame rules alone what is stopping them from sueing for breaking offensive language rules.

 

A fallacy means that the arguments proposition and conclusion are only connected psychologically and not closely related to support each other. Hopefully this post clears up that they happen to be so closely related that they do support each other.

 

I hadn't thought of that... I'll buy that since it's incredibly likely that at least one player did that exact thing.

 

TBH also I think it's a little weird that RSbuddy is now the most advertised fansite on entire RuneScape.

I wouldn't even be surprised of more J-mods have ever heard about RSbuddy nowadays as about Tip.it for example, especially in about 2 years when 50% of the J-mods from now left the building again I'm affraid RSbuddy is just getting more and more popular by noobs even though we all know how that started.

All such actions make me sometimes wish Jagex was a compagnie with max 20 peoples working in it and all of them listening to Andrew.

 

Honestly, most J mods probably know about most of the popular fansites.

 

Up Next: Jagex sues each player who uses foul language in Runescape for $10,000 for each offense :lol:

 

Although from my own research I can say with confidence that Jagex did obtain player information illegally and will lose a DMCA suit on individual players.

 

You don't seem to realize that Jagex probably had half a dozen (or more) lawyers/law-firms which they probably paid $10,000+ to each of them to make sure they didn't obtain it illegally?

 

You know what about law? And you know Jagex has lots of lawyers being paid 10000+ each from where? Stop making things up and use legal precedent, current copyright law, and current cases to prove your point. Otherwise you are just blowing wind and proving nothing.

 

The $10,000 was made up, but honestly... I don't need to do research to know that Jagex is paying several lawyers and/or one or more law firms to help them with this case, who presumably know more about the law and put more effort into it then you do, considering it's their job and lively-hood. Thus, I find legal discussions on these forums kinda pointless.

 

-shrugs-

 

Sure, and I find all your fallacies pointless, as they add nothing to the topic. Jagex is using this as a scare tactic. At least I back up any opinion I have on this topic with facts and evidence, instead of pulling numbers out of thin air in an attempt to give my ludicrous claims credence.

 

I pulled out ONE number, which I retracted in a later post, and the reason I used that number is it's the same number that, according to someone else's (sarcasm) in this post chain, it's the same amount that individual players will be sued for using foul language in the future.

 

At any rate, your argument boils down to using your understanding of legal code in order to dismiss or put down Jagex, whereas my argument, or what I'm trying to say, is that it's pointless for us to discuss it because we don't know as much as the lawyers involved in the case. You think discussing the laws and legal technicalities of this case is a constructive, whereas I don't; here we find a difference of opinion, which neither of us will likely change.

[The_Fray]

Why is such a big deal that cheaters have been let off? For me it makes no difference whether those guys had been banned or not. The biggest problem I had with botters were that they directly impacted my game play. I never have nor will ever care if a botter has botted all 99s because it certainly has no effect on my achievements whatsoever.

[Kimberly]

Why is such a big deal that cheaters have been let off?

 

Because now that bots are gone, we need something else to [bleep] at :D

[stonewall337]

If it's evidence needed on successful prosecutions under DMCA, there's far too many suits winning for this 'scare tactic' to be quite successful in doing just that, isn't there?

 

That is such a dumb argument. The DMCA is not a small thing. This is a specific aspect of the DMCA, which is where the lack of precedent is a major problem. Not the DMCA as a whole.

[Kimberly]

It was a question--since you have been the one the most knowledgeable I figured I'd ask. If lack of precedence is the issue then doesn't that play in Jagex's favor? Without precedence, don't they have more flexibility to go off bs morality and social impact in line with the law?

[Bxpprod]

To add onto what Kimberly said, you claim over and over 'there is no precedent'. Now, whilst I don't think Jagex has a hope in hell, how is it, that precedent is set, when there is no precedent before it? There has to be a first somewhere, and you never know, this could actually be it (although highly unlikely).

[ixfd64]

Heh, I can imagine the jury selection now. "Is anyone here unable to render a fair and impartial verdict, such as by being an active RuneScape player or friends with one?"

[SwreeTak]

It's great to see Jagex giving us all an update on their actions against botters. They're being hard on those firms and botters now...Good job, Jagex! Pk them all ;)

[Blyaunte]

I was very critical of Jagex when the bots were here, but I am not anymore. If they feel that supporting RSBuddy is going to further decimate the bot community then all the more power to them. I stopped caring so much when they removed the bots, now I am more interested in playing the game than worrying about their actions as a company which is how it should have been in the first place. Good job Jagex and continue to do whatever you can to destroy the botting community. We don't need cheaters in this game ruining everyone's experience.

 

^Nailed it^

 

Still If Jagex can sue you for botting what is stopping them for sueing you for cussing?

 

Because THAT would be a non sequitur ... :rolleyes:

Edited November 10, 2011 by Kimberly
Please don't double post. :P

[Guest jrhairychest]

First they were bot experts who knew everything to know about bots................

 

Then came all the sequel......................Experts II - Super programmers who knew better than 'real' programmers....................

 

Now they're back, and this time it's personal...........................................

 

Experts III - Just when you thought they couldn't get any better - The legal experts! More wannabe BS than you can shake a stick at! If you need a good overuse of the word fallacy then look no further! At no good cinemas near you! :wink:

[stonewall337]

Experts IV: The Trolls.

[Kimberly]

Experts IV: The Trolls.

 

Oh god it's like Star Wars 3 but worse.

[Dudecrush8]

Problem bots?

 

Sorry, I couldn't help myself...

 

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

Edited November 11, 2011 by Kimberly
Problem?

[UltraMantisV2]

Still If Jagex can sue you for botting what is stopping them for sueing you for cussing?

 

wut