Hallowe'en Treat: Scary Bonus XP Weekend!

[Den]

Gathering charms isn't a flaw in summoning, it's there to balance out the high exp-per-hour rate while training the skill itself.

Boosting this rate by as much as this weekend does isn't a good move balance-wise.

 

There's a reason you have to collect charms, and this weekend shows why they have that system implemented. I don't understand people who think removing the balancing on a skill is a good idea.

[Fallstar]

Following your logic, if it takes 300 hours to collect and use the charms for 1-99 summoning, then I can create a new character over the weekend and get 99 summoning in only 10 hours. Right?

 

If it takes 300 hours to gather charms for 1-99 summoning, you would have to spend 150 hours gathering charms to use on BXP. So the time spent gathering charms is halved - you save 150 hours.

The problem is that you don't have to gather charms on BXP, only use them.

 

If you used charms for 5 hours of BXP in your example, you'd save 150 hours of collecting charms.

 

If BXP gave you a 2x modifier to charm drop rates, I'd be fine with that. But it doesn't. It ignores the 30+ hours of charm collecting associated with every hour of using charms.

[muggiwhplar]

Ok, do me a favor and check my math to ensure that I'm not missing something important here.

 

Let's say your goal is 1,000,000XP in summoning.

Let's say crimson charms are worth 500XP each.

Let's say you can collect 200 charms/hr

Let's say you can use 5000 charms/hr at the obelisk.

 

Non-BXPW Figures:

Since crimson charms are 500XP each, you need 2000 charms for 1,000,000XP (500*2000=1,000,000)

 

Since you can collect 200 charms/hr, you spend 10 hours collecting 2000 charms (200*10=2000)

 

Since you can use 5000 charms/hr at the obelisk, using 2000 charms will take you 0.4 hours (2000/5000=0.4)

 

10 hours collecting + 0.4 hours using = 10.4 HOURS TOTAL TIME SPENT FOR 1M SUMMONING XP

 

BXPW Figures:

Since crimson charms are now 1000XP each, you need 1000 charms for 1,000,000XP (2*500*1000=1,000,000)

 

Since you can collect 200 charms/hr, you spend 5 hours collecting 1000 charms (200*5=1000)

 

Since you can use 5000 charms/hr at the obelisk, using 1000 charms will take you 0.2 hours (1000/5000=0.2)

 

5 hours collecting + 0.2 hours using = 5.2 HOURS TOTAL TIME SPENT FOR 1M SUMMONING XP

[muggiwhplar]

If you used charms for 5 hours of BXP in your example, you'd save 150 hours of collecting charms.

 

Okay, but how much time did you spend collecting 5 hours worth of charms in the first place? 150 hours, right?

[Fallstar]

My point is that one hour of summoning on BXP is worth far more than one hour of any other skill.

 

So using your figures:

 

I spend 5 hours collecting 1000 charms. If it wasn't BXP I'd need to spend an additional 5 hours gathering charms.

 

On BXP I spend 0.2 hours using my charms.

 

By spending 0.2 hours using charms on BXP, I have saved myself those additional 5 hours gathering charms.

 

With Summoning: 0.2 hours spent using charms = 5 hours saved.

Whereas with any other skill, 0.2 hours spent skilling = 0.2 hours saved.

 

With your figures, I am saving 50x more time by using charms than I am doing any other skill. Of course your figures are arbitrary, but they're order of magnitude appropriate.

[muggiwhplar]

You're not taking into account how long it took to acquire the charms you're using during BXPW in the first place, though. It didn't take you 0.2 hours to save 5.2 hours. It took you 5.2 hours to save 5.2 hours. Those charms didn't just magically appear out of nowhere.

[Estoc]

Isn't this the same for any buyable skill such as herblore where it isn't just grinding but having to earn the money on top of actually training? Only difference here is that for summoning you need charms instead of money.

[Fallstar]

Isn't this the same for any buyable skill such as herblore where it isn't just grinding but having to earn the money on top of actually training? Only difference here is that for summoning you need charms instead of money.

 

Correct, but money can be earned at far higher rates than charms collected, so it doesn't have as big of an impact. But yes, time spent training buyable skills is saves you more time than non buyables if you don't assume infinite gp/hr.

[Fallstar]

You're not taking into account how long it took to acquire the charms you're using during BXPW in the first place, though. It didn't take you 0.2 hours to save 5.2 hours. It took you 5.2 hours to save 5.2 hours. Those charms didn't just magically appear out of nowhere.

 

My point isn't about that. My point is that if BXP didn't exist, you would have to spend 10.4 hours skilling. Overall the time is halved obviously; you now spend 5.2 hours skilling. That's non debatable.

 

But you didn't spend those 5 hours gathering charms during your limited 48 hours of BXP did you?

 

If you gathered the charms for 5 hours during BXP, then spent 0.2 hours using charms during BXP, then BXP has saved you 5.2 hours for 5.2 hours work, right?

But you don't gather charms during BXP. You only spend the 0.2 hours using charms during BXP, so 0.2 hours of BXP have saved you 5.2 hours. Which is why BXP working on Sum is OP; no one will waste their BXP time gathering charms.

 

If you couldn't use stockpiled charms during BXP, and could only use charms you gather during BXP, then what you are saying would be correct. But that isn't the case.

 

If BXP didn't exist, you'd have to spend those 5 hours gathering charms anyway. Jagex are saving you 5 hours for only 0.2 hours of skilling during BXP, that's what my problem is. Well, not my problem per se, as I intend to take advantage of it, but that's what the problem is. :P

[Blyaunte]

Isn't this the same for any buyable skill such as herblore where it isn't just grinding but having to earn the money on top of actually training? Only difference here is that for summoning you need charms instead of money.

 

Correct, but money can be earned at far higher rates than charms collected, so it doesn't have as big of an impact. But yes, time spent training buyable skills is saves you more time than non buyables if you don't assume infinite gp/hr.

 

Well, except you also have to earn the money to buy spirit shards (and pouches) and either earn the money to buy, or otherwise skill to obtain, the seconds to make the pouches ...

 

Again, these things don't magically appear in your inventory either.

[muggiwhplar]

But you don't gather charms during BXP. You only spend the 0.2 hours using charms during BXP, so 0.2 hours of BXP have saved you 5.2 hours. Which is why BXP working on Sum is OP; no one will waste their BXP time gathering charms.

 

You're right, spending 0.2 hours during BXPW using your charms will save you 5.2 hours worth of charm collecting in the future. But again, you're conveniently ignoring the time it took to acquire those charms in the first place. It took you 5 hours. Therefore, regardless of when you chose to collect and use your charms, you're still saving half the time (as opposed to 30x or 50x).

 

And again you're right that that can be "unbalanced" in comparison to the other skills over the weekend. But if you look at the bigger picture, it's just as fair as every other skill at the end of the day (err, weekend). The allocation of time is irrelevant since it's all balanced evenly in the end. You're only able to get crazy XP rates for 0.2 hours, not 48 hours like all the other skills. Even if you were able to use your charms for the entire 48 hours, that'd still require you to spend 1200 hours collecting those charms beforehand. Seems fair enough to me.

[Fallstar]

Well, except you also have to earn the money to buy spirit shards (and pouches) and either earn the money to buy, or otherwise skill to obtain, the seconds to make the pouches ...

 

Again, these things don't magically appear in your inventory either.

 

Yup, I completely agree. This would further increase the value of time spent using charms versus non buyable skilling, but I was only initially considering the extra time saved from gathering charms. My post was about generic buyables vs generic non buyables, not summoning, sorry if I wasn't very clear.

[Fallstar]

But you don't gather charms during BXP. You only spend the 0.2 hours using charms during BXP, so 0.2 hours of BXP have saved you 5.2 hours. Which is why BXP working on Sum is OP; no one will waste their BXP time gathering charms.

 

You're right, spending 0.2 hours during BXPW using your charms will save you 5.2 hours worth of charm collecting in the future. But again, you're conveniently ignoring the time it took to acquire those charms in the first place. It took you 5 hours. Therefore, regardless of when you chose to collect and use your charms, you're still saving half the time (as opposed to 30x or 50x).

 

And again you're right that that can be "unbalanced" in comparison to the other skills over the weekend. But if you look at the bigger picture, it's just as fair as every other skill at the end of the day (err, weekend). The allocation of time is irrelevant since it's all balanced evenly in the end.

 

In the bigger picture, yes it's a 2x modifier. I am not saying that summoning is 30x or 50x faster - I probably wasn't very clear to begin with - I am saying time spent using charms on BXP has 30x or 50x the return compared to time spent doing other skills on BXP.

 

Overall: It took you 5.2 hours to gather charms and use them if BXP exists.

Overall: it took you 10.4 hours to gather charms and use them if BXP doesn't exist.

 

So yes, it does only halve the time spent. Why i think it is unbalanced is that you need only spend 0.2 hours during the BXP to save you 5.2 hours. I think we agree now? lol.

 

If you could only use charms which you collected during BXP time on BXP, then it would be far more balanced, would still be a 2x modifier overall, and would mean using charms during BXP time has similar returns to other skills.

[muggiwhplar]

I edited my post while you were quoting it. Another point I made was:

 

I think comparing the 0.2 hours spent using charms to training other skills during the weekend is irrelevant.

 

You're only able to get crazy XP rates for 0.2 hours, not 48 hours like all the other skills. Even if you were able to use your charms for the entire 48 hours, that'd still require you to spend 1200 hours collecting those charms beforehand. So in that sense, it still balances out in the end with all things considered.

[aerendil]

shit people, everyone [bleep]ing about how AMG THOSE NOOBS GETTING 99 SUMMONING TOO ESY ITS NOT FAIR I WORKED MY ASS OFF FOR 99 SUMMON BANPLZ OR NERF.

 

1 charm is now the equivalent of 2 charms.

NOT 1 CHARM IS NOW THE EQUIVALENT OF 30 CHARMS.

for (bleep)s sake people, stop whining, and get over it, summoning is second only to agility in he pure amount of grinding and timewaste spent getting 99. it is a horrible skill. instead of saying how unfair it is, get over it and be happy that some people didn't have to go through the hell you did. shit happens, now grow up, stop whining and start training agility. (or buy spins as they get double xp accordingly)<get mad over this instead of doubled sum xp, or just be happy we have a bxp weekend at all.

 

 

ps: for anyone wanting to make gurd money atm, you can flip summoning supplies very easily, buy yak hides for +5% ea night, and sell to the noobs each day for 800gp-1k ea

[Druvovic]

Has there even been any whining before your post? I've only seen a discussion (with fair arguments from both "sides") about whether this summoning thing is a good thing or not. That's usually what a discussion forum is about.

[Sir_Squab]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more balanced summoning seems. The big issue for summon, or herb, is that some people get lucky and will have a stockpile of herbs or charms when the announcement is, and other people get screwed because they didn't, or even worse because they just used it. It's bad with say, mining too tho, because if someone spends 20 hours mining to get 99 (this hypothetical person was 20 hours away from getting 99) then they got screwed as well.

 

The big issue is that if you say, spent 30 hours collecting charms collecting charms the past month, you've saved 30 hours. Why is saving 30 hours a bad thing? Because the exp weekend isn't that long. A lot of players, imo most players, won't be on for 30 hours that weekend.

[Deletion]

It means that those who have charms stock-piled save those "30 hours" for only a few hours work on the actual weekend. Whereas with any other skill you have to work 30 hours to save 30 hours. Which in my opinion seems unbalanced.

[Alg]

It means that those who have charms stock-piled save those "30 hours" for only a few hours work on the actual weekend. Whereas with any other skill you have to work 30 hours to save 30 hours. Which in my opinion seems unbalanced.

That gets into another of summoning's quirks though. Most players build up their charm stashes as a byproduct of regular combat.

[Hedgehog]

If you spend 100 hours gathering 20k charms and earn 500 xp each at the rate of 10k charms used per hour, how much xp have you gained? 10,000,000 at a rate of ~98k xp/hour.

 

If you spend 100 hours gathering 20k charms and earn 1,000 xp each at the rate of 10k charms used per hour, how much xp have you gained? 20,000,000 at a rate of ~196k xp/hour.

[Sorator]

I still don't see how it's that different from herb, or fm, or crafting, or any buyable skill. For all those skills, you can buy the stuff and save a ton of time by just doing the xp-bearing activities during BXPW. The only difference with summoning is that you can't buy the charms; you have to gather them manually. I don't really understand why that means it must be treated completely differently. (DIY accounts treat every "buyable" that way, gathering all the resources themselves. Should they then be limited to less bonus xp on all their skills? I understand that's a player choice, rather than the game creators' choice, but still.)

[Den]

If you spend 100 hours gathering 20k charms and earn 500 xp each at the rate of 10k charms used per hour, how much xp have you gained? 10,000,000 at a rate of ~98k xp/hour.

 

If you spend 100 hours gathering 20k charms and earn 1,000 xp each at the rate of 10k charms used per hour, how much xp have you gained? 20,000,000 at a rate of ~196k xp/hour.

That's been pointed out more times than I can remember. The point which was trying to be made was that by doing summoning on this weekend instead of other skills, you save more time than other skills.

 

Let me try explaining it as it still doesn't seem to have been understood fully. I save up 20k charms and use them on this weekend. Using 5k an hour I can use them up in 4 hours and save a ton of time collecting the charms from the "Doubled" experience.

 

The difference between summoning and money using herblore as an example here, is that money is tradable. I don't have to camp a monster for 100 hours to get 4 hours worth of training (assuming 200 charms per hour) if doing herblore. I could be a rich gambling host or clan leader making over 100M an hour. I could get a ton of cash within a few hours at the Duel Arena. Gaining a large amount of cash fast is much easier than gaining a lot of charms fast.

 

That is one of the arguments against doubled summoning exp.

[Hedgehog]

If you spend 100 hours gathering 20k charms and earn 500 xp each at the rate of 10k charms used per hour, how much xp have you gained? 10,000,000 at a rate of ~98k xp/hour.

 

If you spend 100 hours gathering 20k charms and earn 1,000 xp each at the rate of 10k charms used per hour, how much xp have you gained? 20,000,000 at a rate of ~196k xp/hour.

That's been pointed out more times than I can remember. The point which was trying to be made was that by doing summoning on this weekend instead of other skills, you save more time than other skills.

 

Let me try explaining it as it still doesn't seem to have been understood fully. I save up 20k charms and use them on this weekend. Using 5k an hour I can use them up in 4 hours and save a ton of time collecting the charms from the "Doubled" experience.

 

The difference between summoning and money using herblore as an example here, is that money is tradable. I don't have to camp a monster for 100 hours to get 4 hours worth of training (assuming 200 charms per hour) if doing herblore. I could be a rich gambling host or clan leader making over 100M an hour. I could get a ton of cash within a few hours at the Duel Arena. Gaining a large amount of cash fast is much easier than gaining a lot of charms fast.

 

That is one of the arguments against doubled summoning exp.

I'm not arguing if it's good or bad, or better than any other skill. Just that it's not a 30x bonus or whatever they were saying.

[Alg]

I'm not arguing if it's good or bad, or better than any other skill. Just that it's not a 30x bonus or whatever they were saying.

His point seems to be that the player that spent 100 hours to gather 20k charms gets 200 hours worth of experience out of it. The math might be questionable but the point is there.

[CoachK]

Sorry to be slightly off topic, but will the SoF (and all other related) items create a 4x or 3x during BXPW?

I'm all for 2x Summoning! Time is money. We should be thanking Jagex for saving us an exponential amount of time monotonously camping.