Behind the Scenes - January 2014

[Troacctid]

Jagex has gotten very good at listening to what players want while apparently remaining clueless about how many players want it. They seem to be operating under the assumption that the players on the forums asking for new content are representative of the entire playerbase.

 

Case in point, the stupid "prestige" idea, because if the players on our private maxed-only forums like something then of course everyone else will too. Restricting ports to 90+ only, because otherwise too many players would be able to enjoy it. Developing a string of new absurdly high-level bosses like Vorago and Rise of the Six, because one or two bosses most players will never fight isn't nearly enough, we need to showcase our new combat mechanics in a place where they can only be experienced by players with max stats and billions of gp.

 

It's great that they're communicating, but when the only people in the dialog are the heavily enfranchised ones, the signals get warped.

[Ammako]

Restricting ports to 90+ only, because otherwise too many players would be able to enjoy it.

Because high level-only content is a bad thing, right?

You mean they haven't made enough updates accessible to everyone yet?

[Sy_Accursed]

Jagex has gotten very good at listening to what players want while apparently remaining clueless about how many players want it. They seem to be operating under the assumption that the players on the forums asking for new content are representative of the entire playerbase.

 

Case in point, the stupid "prestige" idea, because if the players on our private maxed-only forums like something then of course everyone else will too. Restricting ports to 90+ only, because otherwise too many players would be able to enjoy it. Developing a string of new absurdly high-level bosses like Vorago and Rise of the Six, because one or two bosses most players will never fight isn't nearly enough, we need to showcase our new combat mechanics in a place where they can only be experienced by players with max stats and billions of gp.

 

It's great that they're communicating, but when the only people in the dialog are the heavily enfranchised ones, the signals get warped.

 

I'd disagree with a lot of your points there.

 

1) To my understanding most of HLF were quite against prestige, it is not an idea that particularly came from listening to them

 

2) Ports being 90+ is not a bad thing, yes much content should be open to all but we also need high end content; much of the game is sorely lacking in this department. Ports was a brilliant addition to help fixt his.

 

3) A string of high-level bosses to showcase new combat? Perhaps. But they are hardly exclusive. KK and QBD showcase eoc quite well and are easily dealt with by much lower levels. Equally the Ascension dungeon and Airut do a reasonable job at showing it off to those not so pvm inclined. Not to mention the mole rework mere weeks away specifically catering to lower levels. I'd agree we could do with a few more low end bosses to accompany the mole, but I hardly think they are being entirely exclusionary with showing off eoc, just Vorago and Rise of The Six out of 6 eoc coded monster/bosses fall in to that category. Of course the balance of drops and such is another matter entirely, but that is not really the point in question here.

[Platinum_Myr]

The issue is that you need high level exclusive content to attract 'end game' players. But you also need to keep the game entertaining enough to get there.

[Alg]

 

Restricting ports to 90+ only, because otherwise too many players would be able to enjoy it.

Because high level-only content is a bad thing, right?

You mean they haven't made enough updates accessible to everyone yet?

That depends.

Updates? Yes, we have those.

Meaningful updates that actually improve the game experience? No, not at all.

 

It's actually getting kind of catch-22-ish, in that a lot of skill features that would help out earlier in the game come too late to be of use to anyone, like rewarding players with the ability to use T60 weapons for a grandmaster quest, or requiring 80 farming to grow a low-level potion second. Honestly, I get the feeling that they're just slapping these requirements on for the sake of saying there's high level content, and nobody wants that.

[strilmus]

i feel like 90 is reasonable for the type of stuff that is produced from it, save for the scrimshaws, which aren't really worth it

 

(considering that the content contained within doesn't actually require any further investment of gold besides paying for some things that you want to happen, faster)

 

i see a lot of people wearing ports gear in the event, so the distribution rate must be pretty good

[Alg]

I dunno, ports could have had some cool stuff for the entire level spectrum. 90 works for the stuff they have now, it's just annoying that those are the only rewards

 

Hell, port resources and trade goods to upgrade gear. Use ancient bones, plate, and lacquer to improve Fremmenik armor, chi to upgrade elemental staves, spices to make other fish stew... Could have had something that people could use throughout their entire careers and resurrect some other dead or dying content on the side.

[Urza285]

I personally think prestige was a fine system. Im pretty sure the big issue was losing ranks that players really hated.

[Hedgehog]

I personally think prestige was a fine system. Im pretty sure the big issue was losing ranks that players really hated.

Well, no, the entire idea was terrible and there wouldnt have been a single positive outcome.

[Ammako]

I dunno, ports could have had some cool stuff for the entire level spectrum. 90 works for the stuff they have now, it's just annoying that those are the only rewards

 

Hell, port resources and trade goods to upgrade gear. Use ancient bones, plate, and lacquer to improve Fremmenik armor, chi to upgrade elemental staves, spices to make other fish stew... Could have had something that people could use throughout their entire careers and resurrect some other dead or dying content on the side.

Invention may take care of that though.

[Hedgehog]

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

[Ts_Stormrage]

...It is transparently obvious unless you're in some alternate universe with an alternate Runescape and alternate Jagex, that dozens and dozens of updates are being delayed, the quality and quantity of updates per month has drastically declined, and longstanding and glaring problems are being ignored month after month. They are obviously hideously incompetent or they are cutting development time, or possibly both. 

 

I can't take anyone seriously who tries to dispute the above, I simply can't.

Even with good arguments? Dismissing them out of hand? What are you, religious?

 

One of these arguments has to be Quality Assurance... The massive fally-massacre-esque mistakes that can creep in with any kind of update have been rare to nonexistent of late... Coding a feature for RS is one thing, fitting it in the existing game is quite another... If an update has to be delayed to prevent catastrophic failures, then I damn well want them to be delayed...

 

But if the lack of of updates for your weekly RuneScape-fix is too much for you to bear, might I suggest that this weight on your shoulders you're feeling is nothing more than your own butt-cheecks?

[Yoko Kurama]

 

I personally think prestige was a fine system. Im pretty sure the big issue was losing ranks that players really hated.

Well, no, the entire idea was terrible and there wouldnt have been a single positive outcome.

 

 

 

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

 

Agreed on both counts.

 

Most of the game is grinding and boring enough, let's not make gear the same way. Isn't it enough that obtaining useful gear is a chore enough, with some costing well into the billions? Same with organizing teams for things like Vorago. Don't need to add to that.

[Urza285]

 

I personally think prestige was a fine system. Im pretty sure the big issue was losing ranks that players really hated.

Well, no, the entire idea was terrible and there wouldnt have been a single positive outcome.

Economically it would have kept demand for lower end supplies.

 

In the end you can't prove it was a bad idea until you saw how the chips fell.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

I personally think prestige was a fine system. Im pretty sure the big issue was losing ranks that players really hated.

Well, no, the entire idea was terrible and there wouldnt have been a single positive outcome.

Economically it would have kept demand for lower end supplies.

 

In the end you can't prove it was a bad idea until you saw how the chips fell.

 

 

Actually yes you can. You can easily extrapolate what was going to happen based on what we knew. It might have made demand for lower supplies higher, but been disastrous in other respects. And given the luck-based mechanic of the game, with PVM and merchanting being where the money is at, and the move to an experience craze, skilling will never be a good money-maker again. What prestige would have done is removed any sense of finality in the game and put everyone on a never-ending race to level forever -- I can't think of anything good about that.

[Hedgehog]

Increased demand for low end supplies is terrible for the economy. Consider the income discrepancy between high levels and low levels. Basically, it means low levels wouldn't be able to train buyables.

[strilmus]

i don't think ports was meant to prop up the entire game (this is really what you are asking for) but it does resolve the issue somewhat of there being a huge gap between gwd gear and nex gear

 

but yeah, inventioneering

 

yes

[mlskid]

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this... what's so bad about it? Making items that come from ports be able to upgrade other weapons etc sounds like a good idea to me. With it coming from ports it means there's nothing really new added into the game as like a drop, and its untradeable so you can only DIY... It's not that much of a "grind" really as all you do is send ships out and then wait for them to come back... plus you could add all sorts of nuances to customize each player's weapons to whatever they like... How would this be bad?

[Alg]

 

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this... what's so bad about it? Making items that come from ports be able to upgrade other weapons etc sounds like a good idea to me. With it coming from ports it means there's nothing really new added into the game as like a drop, and its untradeable so you can only DIY... It's not that much of a "grind" really as all you do is send ships out and then wait for them to come back... plus you could add all sorts of nuances to customize each player's weapons to whatever they like... How would this be bad?

It's bad when it involves (tradeable) items that should be useful at lower levels, because they essentially stop being low-level items. Like Dragon -> Ascension crossbows: being used as a component is going to keep them out of the price range of everyone with 60 ranged, they may as well not exist for that tier.

 

So suggesting it was a misstep on my part. While I'm a fan of ensuring that you don't just throw away your old gear when you've outgrown it, the way Runescape's market works makes it more than a bit unfeasible... Would it work better with unique quest items like the Gadderhammer or Shadow Sword?

[Sy_Accursed]

 

 

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this... what's so bad about it? Making items that come from ports be able to upgrade other weapons etc sounds like a good idea to me. With it coming from ports it means there's nothing really new added into the game as like a drop, and its untradeable so you can only DIY... It's not that much of a "grind" really as all you do is send ships out and then wait for them to come back... plus you could add all sorts of nuances to customize each player's weapons to whatever they like... How would this be bad?

It's bad when it involves (tradeable) items that should be useful at lower levels, because they essentially stop being low-level items. Like Dragon -> Ascension crossbows: being used as a component is going to keep them out of the price range of everyone with 60 ranged, they may as well not exist for that tier.

 

So suggesting it was a misstep on my part. While I'm a fan of ensuring that you don't just throw away your old gear when you've outgrown it, the way Runescape's market works makes it more than a bit unfeasible... Would it work better with unique quest items like the Gadderhammer or Shadow Sword?

 

 

I think the logical way would require only self made items opposed to dropped or bought items.

And have them have their limits eg a lvl 10 bronze item can never exceed a lvl 10 iron and so on and so forth - ensures you still need to move up the tiers but adds some longevity to gear

[Hedgehog]

 

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this... what's so bad about it? Making items that come from ports be able to upgrade other weapons etc sounds like a good idea to me. With it coming from ports it means there's nothing really new added into the game as like a drop, and its untradeable so you can only DIY... It's not that much of a "grind" really as all you do is send ships out and then wait for them to come back... plus you could add all sorts of nuances to customize each player's weapons to whatever they like... How would this be bad?

 

Because it turns low-level content into high-level content.

 

Let's say there's an update that allows you to attach plates to rock-shell armor. Let's say that 50 plates + a set of rock-shell is equal to Bandos armor. There are two possibilities: either it will be more efficient to buy Bandos, or it will be more efficient to use rock-shell + plates. In the latter scenario, you'll see people sell their Bandos armor and buy rock-shell. This means that everyone who was previously using Bandos armor, i.e. mid-level players (maxed stats, but limited income), are now using armor meant for low-level players (sub-70 stats, low income).

 

Those mid-level players will trade their Bandos for rock-shell until they're equally efficient, then they'll just buy whichever they like more. At this point, rock-shell will be just as difficult for low-level players to obtain as Bandos armor. Basically, low-level players are prevented from using rock-shell until they have the capability of using Bandos armor. They'll have to resort to using an even lower-levelled set of armor, which makes progress harder and slower at low levels.

 

We've already seen this in-game with dragon crossbows. They're used to make ascension crossbows, so their price is significantly higher than what someone with 60 ranged would be able to afford, because they're being used by players who aren't using them as level 60 weapons. It would be extremely difficult to go from 60 to 70 ranged if chinchompas didn't exist because players would be forced to use a rune crossbow the whole time.

 

Edit:

 

 

 

 

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this... what's so bad about it? Making items that come from ports be able to upgrade other weapons etc sounds like a good idea to me. With it coming from ports it means there's nothing really new added into the game as like a drop, and its untradeable so you can only DIY... It's not that much of a "grind" really as all you do is send ships out and then wait for them to come back... plus you could add all sorts of nuances to customize each player's weapons to whatever they like... How would this be bad?

It's bad when it involves (tradeable) items that should be useful at lower levels, because they essentially stop being low-level items. Like Dragon -> Ascension crossbows: being used as a component is going to keep them out of the price range of everyone with 60 ranged, they may as well not exist for that tier.

 

So suggesting it was a misstep on my part. While I'm a fan of ensuring that you don't just throw away your old gear when you've outgrown it, the way Runescape's market works makes it more than a bit unfeasible... Would it work better with unique quest items like the Gadderhammer or Shadow Sword?

 

 

No. If it's released in an existing tier (tier 7, for example), then it'd make all other tier 7 weapons obsolete, because it'd be so much easier to obtain. If it's a new tier, then it would probably be faster to level with a T-2 weapon and level to T than it is to earn the money for a T-1 weapon and level to T. If you make the quest item harder to obtain than a standard weapon, then it won't be used.

 

Also, if you make it a comp req, it counts as being easier even if it's actually harder, because getting it would be 100% efficient.

 

I'm fine with quest items having special effects (such as darklight against TDs), because that doesn't really impact the market.

[mlskid]

 

 

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this... what's so bad about it? Making items that come from ports be able to upgrade other weapons etc sounds like a good idea to me. With it coming from ports it means there's nothing really new added into the game as like a drop, and its untradeable so you can only DIY... It's not that much of a "grind" really as all you do is send ships out and then wait for them to come back... plus you could add all sorts of nuances to customize each player's weapons to whatever they like... How would this be bad?

It's bad when it involves (tradeable) items that should be useful at lower levels, because they essentially stop being low-level items. Like Dragon -> Ascension crossbows: being used as a component is going to keep them out of the price range of everyone with 60 ranged, they may as well not exist for that tier.

 

So suggesting it was a misstep on my part. While I'm a fan of ensuring that you don't just throw away your old gear when you've outgrown it, the way Runescape's market works makes it more than a bit unfeasible... Would it work better with unique quest items like the Gadderhammer or Shadow Sword?

 

I can see the problems with tradeable items such as the dragon crossbow, but i was just curious how it would be so bad with untradeable things like port supplies. Make it like a customizeable aspect such as from FFX where you can give certain boosts with certain items. Make like 100k jade give 20% more health when added to a plate or something like that. I'm not too good with ratios though, but something along those lines where you give up nontradeable resources that are easily obtainable with few requirements gives decent rewards. Heck maybe even you could do something like MTK only with the elf story line and make that into a way to invent more buffs or whatever to your gear.

When i was talking of upgrading items i didn't mean use items of a certain tier to make higher tiered weapons, sorry if that was unclear. I meant more as in buff up my weapon keeping it the same level however through using nontradeable items you can make that same tier weapon/armor into something that is actually better.

 

As for the unique quest items I think they would fail just simply because jagex... remember keris buff? Yeah.

 

EDIT: @Mere, I can see your point about the rock-shell armor and such but if you can also upgrade bandos then doesn't that make the entire problem moot? I.E. instead of having only certain armor be able to upgrade, it all becomes upgradeable? And you could add certain things to it in order for no armor to become really too OP, for instance make only certain armors be able to have certain benefits and buffs "attached" to them?

Edited January 2, 2014 by mlskid

[Hedgehog]

 

 

 

No no no no upgrading gear is terrible for the game

I'm not entirely sure I agree with this... what's so bad about it? Making items that come from ports be able to upgrade other weapons etc sounds like a good idea to me. With it coming from ports it means there's nothing really new added into the game as like a drop, and its untradeable so you can only DIY... It's not that much of a "grind" really as all you do is send ships out and then wait for them to come back... plus you could add all sorts of nuances to customize each player's weapons to whatever they like... How would this be bad?

It's bad when it involves (tradeable) items that should be useful at lower levels, because they essentially stop being low-level items. Like Dragon -> Ascension crossbows: being used as a component is going to keep them out of the price range of everyone with 60 ranged, they may as well not exist for that tier.

 

So suggesting it was a misstep on my part. While I'm a fan of ensuring that you don't just throw away your old gear when you've outgrown it, the way Runescape's market works makes it more than a bit unfeasible... Would it work better with unique quest items like the Gadderhammer or Shadow Sword?

 

I can see the problems with tradeable items such as the dragon crossbow, but i was just curious how it would be so bad with untradeable things like port supplies. Make it like a customizeable aspect such as from FFX where you can give certain boosts with certain items. Make like 100k jade give 20% more health when added to a plate or something like that. I'm not too good with ratios though, but something along those lines where you give up nontradeable resources that are easily obtainable with few requirements gives decent rewards. Heck maybe even you could do something like MTK only with the elf story line and make that into a way to invent more buffs or whatever to your gear.

When i was talking of upgrading items i didn't mean use items of a certain tier to make higher tiered weapons, sorry if that was unclear. I meant more as in buff up my weapon keeping it the same level however through using nontradeable items you can make that same tier weapon/armor into something that is actually better.

 

As for the unique quest items I think they would fail just simply because jagex... remember keris buff? Yeah.

 

EDIT: @Mere, I can see your point about the rock-shell armor and such but if you can also upgrade bandos then doesn't that make the entire problem moot? I.E. instead of having only certain armor be able to upgrade, it all becomes upgradeable? And you could add certain things to it in order for no armor to become really too OP, for instance make only certain armors be able to have certain benefits and buffs "attached" to them?

 

No, making everything upgradable would just equalize the demand for all armor sets. It'd make rock-shell as efficient to get as Torva, and Bandos as easy to get as rock-shell, and Torva as easy to get as Bandos. I don't really have time to explain, but I think it's obvious why that's bad.

[W aldo]

 

It makes it easier, yes, but it doesn't make it easy to the point where a bunch of people can pop down and have fun with it

 

 

Sorry to reply late to this, but this kinda sums up the facepalming I have done hearing people talk about Vorago. For years up until now, I have heard people complaining about the ease of killing all the bosses, and everyone wanted an actual challenge. They listened to the players and have brought in a very hard boss that not everybody can kill (imagine that) and for months I have been hearing constant complaints about Vorago.

You know what, if you aren't making tons of money because he is too hard to kill, then don't kill him. This boss is the so called "ultimate boss" of the game, it was never meant for "a bunch of people to pop down and have fun with it". Go to KK, GWD or whatever other bosses you want for that.

[Alg]

No. If it's released in an existing tier (tier 7, for example), then it'd make all other tier 7 weapons obsolete, because it'd be so much easier to obtain. If it's a new tier, then it would probably be faster to level with a T-2 weapon and level to T than it is to earn the money for a T-1 weapon and level to T. If you make the quest item harder to obtain than a standard weapon, then it won't be used.

 

Also, if you make it a comp req, it counts as being easier even if it's actually harder, because getting it would be 100% efficient.

 

I'm fine with quest items having special effects (such as darklight against TDs), because that doesn't really impact the market.

I'm suggesting something similar to what they did with Balmung: the upgrade turns it into an okay weapon except in certain situations where it becomes a great weapon.

 

...I'm going to leave efficiency arguments out of this, because (as you might already know) I have such huge problems with the way people use that approach (In every game, not just Scape) that I'd almost certainly get a warning out of it.