Behind the Scenes - January 2014

[Sally]

I'm looking forward to what they do with the mole. For the newer end of the player base, she's most likely the first boss they face and its good that they are updating it to be honest.

 

Also, I think you guys should give Jagex a chance, even if its a small one. Its the beginning of a new year, the BTS is a guideline to what they are planning and they are trying to appease a very angry and vocal part of their forums, as well as on here. They may just surprise you yet.

[Lord Zophar]

I'm looking forward to what they do with the mole. For the newer end of the player base, she's most likely the first boss they face and its good that they are updating it to be honest.

 

Also, I think you guys should give Jagex a chance, even if its a small one. Its the beginning of a new year, the BTS is a guideline to what they are planning and they are trying to appease a very angry and vocal part of their forums, as well as on here. They may just surprise you yet.

What are they doing this month to appease us?

 

A couple of ports items NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT? Ooh, a ring cape and throwing weapons, big freaking deal.

 

Updating a low-level boss? Pfft.

 

I'm going to be "that guy" for a moment:

 

They've had chances upon chances, all they are delivering is filler and P2W stuff. The combat triangle is still broken beyond recognition with mage being far superior to everything, ranged being merely passable (but only if you have 500m to spend on gear) and melee being worthless at high-tier bosses; they seem to have absolutely no problem with the best mage weapon costing well above max cash (as indicated by not only not improving the drop rates but actually adding a new phase that is incredibly annoying and resource-intensive), we are lucky to receive a new quest every TWO MONTHS and when we do it is only a 30 minute "novice" quest... No,  the benefit-of-the-doubt is something that needs to be earned. And they have not done so.

 

This doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game, I just take most of their so-called "updates" with a grain of salt these days. BTS and "update days" used to excite me. Now, there is scarcely one single update each month that even piques my interest. It's obvious the company is cutting development costs on this game, and probably with good reason too. It is 12 years old, after all, with a steadily declining player base. They're doing just enough to get by, but they do not seem to care about long-term player retention. The problem is, the long-term players are all they've got.

 

This game is too old and too functionally antiquated to appeal to the newer generations of gamers. It requires THOUSANDS of hours of gameplay to get to the end-game in RS; I believe I read somewhere recently that the average gamer today doesn't complete a 15-hour console game (and yes, that is about how long most single-player campaigns are in games these days) before putting it down and starting a different game... Do you really think those people are going to stick around in RS, once they get past level 50 and realize "damn, this grind is getting pretty boring"?

[Sy_Accursed]

A ring and a cape no-one cares about... unless you fall in to the crowd that has the logic to realise all existing capes and rings, despite having no level reqs have stats akin to MUCH lower lvl items, therefore logic would dictate the new ring and cape have a high chance of being best in-game, heck they even stand a chance of being substantially better than existing options.

 

People are all to happy to throw negativity on something before its even out despite the fact the parameters we have for it suggest it is quite likely to be pretty good.

 

Also console games and mmorpgs are a very different market, most of the mmorpgs require much more time than the 15 hour console servings for the main campaign. Equally yes many won't complete those console games, but just as many will milk them to 100% with every ounce of side content and achievement going. Just because one part of the market does something does not mean the other part should be entirely ignored. Yes there are mmorpgs designed for you fly through to the end-game and be done, but there are others that are not; both serve a different market.

 

Also it is utter nonsense to claim they are cutting dev costs they have actively expanded the team and added in more high-end features (orchestral musics and voice acting); there is no question on that matter we've seen it happen they are spending more on dev than ever before.

 

I'd also disagree with the idea they aren't at least trying to do things for player retention - they have focused on high level content pretty solidly for a whole year and are doing so more in 2014 (apprently) and decided to make their 'ninja team' popular fixes a more regular fixture. Both of these moves are clearly catered towards player retention

[HunterDexter]

Doesn't a cape just give like 50lp bonus? Since EOC I don't see the benefit of capes, boots and gauntlets anymore. Rings still give some kind of crit boost.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

Also it is utter nonsense to claim they are cutting dev costs they have actively expanded the team and added in more high-end features (orchestral musics and voice acting); there is no question on that matter we've seen it happen they are spending more on dev than ever before.

 

I'd also disagree with the idea they aren't at least trying to do things for player retention - they have focused on high level content pretty solidly for a whole year and are doing so more in 2014 (apprently) and decided to make their 'ninja team' popular fixes a more regular fixture. Both of these moves are clearly catered towards player retention

 

No. Simply no. It is transparently obvious unless you're in some alternate universe with an alternate Runescape and alternate Jagex, that dozens and dozens of updates are being delayed, the quality and quantity of updates per month has drastically declined, and longstanding and glaring problems are being ignored month after month. They are obviously hideously incompetent or they are cutting development time, or possibly both. 

 

I can't take anyone seriously who tries to dispute the above, I simply can't.

[stealthchris117]

Doesn't a cape just give like 50lp bonus? Since EOC I don't see the benefit of capes, boots and gauntlets anymore. Rings still give some kind of crit boost.

Capes such as the Obsidian and 99 capes give crit bonus and armor (99 capes also give prayer). The only 2 capes that I know of which give LP are Legends Guild and Completionist.

[Sally]

 

I'm looking forward to what they do with the mole. For the newer end of the player base, she's most likely the first boss they face and its good that they are updating it to be honest.

 

Also, I think you guys should give Jagex a chance, even if its a small one. Its the beginning of a new year, the BTS is a guideline to what they are planning and they are trying to appease a very angry and vocal part of their forums, as well as on here. They may just surprise you yet.

What are they doing this month to appease us?

 

A couple of ports items NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT? Ooh, a ring cape and throwing weapons, big freaking deal.

 

Updating a low-level boss? Pfft.

 

I'm going to be "that guy" for a moment:

 

They've had chances upon chances, all they are delivering is filler and P2W stuff. The combat triangle is still broken beyond recognition with mage being far superior to everything, ranged being merely passable (but only if you have 500m to spend on gear) and melee being worthless at high-tier bosses; they seem to have absolutely no problem with the best mage weapon costing well above max cash (as indicated by not only not improving the drop rates but actually adding a new phase that is incredibly annoying and resource-intensive), we are lucky to receive a new quest every TWO MONTHS and when we do it is only a 30 minute "novice" quest... No,  the benefit-of-the-doubt is something that needs to be earned. And they have not done so.

 

This doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game, I just take most of their so-called "updates" with a grain of salt these days. BTS and "update days" used to excite me. Now, there is scarcely one single update each month that even piques my interest. It's obvious the company is cutting development costs on this game, and probably with good reason too. It is 12 years old, after all, with a steadily declining player base. They're doing just enough to get by, but they do not seem to care about long-term player retention. The problem is, the long-term players are all they've got.

 

This game is too old and too functionally antiquated to appeal to the newer generations of gamers. It requires THOUSANDS of hours of gameplay to get to the end-game in RS; I believe I read somewhere recently that the average gamer today doesn't complete a 15-hour console game (and yes, that is about how long most single-player campaigns are in games these days) before putting it down and starting a different game... Do you really think those people are going to stick around in RS, once they get past level 50 and realize "damn, this grind is getting pretty boring"?

 

 

Right, for starters, I was giving my opinion and a side to the updates that is usually hidden away by rage. I wasn't trying to provoke anyone into that kind of responce.

 

In regards to your comment about people not 'giving a shit'....You're seeing right here the vocal minority that complain about the updates. That is understandable, not everyone is going to enjoy the updates. That does not mean, however, that everyone does not want these updates.

 

As Sy said, the console gamer has different expectations of a game. That does not mean that every kind of gamer is going to expect the same thing.

 

As I said in my post, I am looking foward to the mole and a couple of the other updates. Yeah, there are some things that I don't like that are coming out, but they simply cannot please everyone. And I cannot defend them on the pushbacks of content, at the end of the day complaining about it not coming out isn't going to make it come any faster. If anything, it leads to rushed and broken content, so I would rather wait for it than have it come out and constantly be buggy.

 

TL:DR I can have an opinion and so can you. Doesn't make either of us wrong or right, and doesn't mean that Jagex don't deserve the chances that anyone is willing to give them. If you don't like it, you don't like it.

[JeRambo]

Ports 2 is probably my most anticipated update of this year, I still do ports every day on my main. :o.

 

I wonder if the resources --> trade good conversion will work with current resources, or only the new ones? Would really like to be able to convert my 240k Steel .. :P.

[HunterDexter]

Same here! Got over 100k in every resource and steel capped, I hope it pays off. :p

[JeRambo]

That's .. impressive! :o. I spent too many resources on trying to get decentish crew. :P.

 

What's the max amount of a resource you can have? 250k? I know it's 200k for chimes.

[HunterDexter]

Ow, I thought 200k was the cap too on steel. XD Well, I have 200k steel and then switched to lower resources.

[Sy_Accursed]

 

 

 

Also it is utter nonsense to claim they are cutting dev costs they have actively expanded the team and added in more high-end features (orchestral musics and voice acting); there is no question on that matter we've seen it happen they are spending more on dev than ever before.

 

I'd also disagree with the idea they aren't at least trying to do things for player retention - they have focused on high level content pretty solidly for a whole year and are doing so more in 2014 (apprently) and decided to make their 'ninja team' popular fixes a more regular fixture. Both of these moves are clearly catered towards player retention

 

No. Simply no. It is transparently obvious unless you're in some alternate universe with an alternate Runescape and alternate Jagex, that dozens and dozens of updates are being delayed, the quality and quantity of updates per month has drastically declined, and longstanding and glaring problems are being ignored month after month. They are obviously hideously incompetent or they are cutting development time, or possibly both. 

 

I can't take anyone seriously who tries to dispute the above, I simply can't.

 

 

I can't take anyone seriously who cites delays as 'proof' of cutting dev costs when they have quite openly and proveably expanded the dev team and added new, costly, factors in to parts of their development. Not to mention 'dozens' is a huge overstatement we've had about 3-4 last minute delays in the year the rest of the 'delays' have simply been the shifting of estimated completions as development progress - people taking such dates too literally and getting all 'omg wtf jagex delays waa waaa' is precisely why Jagex tries to avoid giving us such dates historically.

 

Delays happen no matter what budget you throw at stuff, some of the biggest budget games in the world have faced delays due to last minute technical issues isn't doesn't prove a thing about dev costs.

 

Equally content decline in quality and quantity is entirely unproven - for one thing we've still had our update every week but 1 each month quantity other than 1 or 2 instances of delay. As for quality it is entirely subjective, for me most of their updates have been of great quality. Quests in particular have raised the bar this year, as have boss battles.

 

Yes there are longterm well known issues, but this is nothing new Runescape has always had such issues so it proves nothing about declining costs; the fact they have very recently got their 'ninja team' to start purposefully addressing these issues says more about their actions and dev than the fact these issues exist when that has been the status quo for the past decade of the game.

[strilmus]

i attribute most of their issues to not having contingency plans for failure

[Yoko Kurama]

@Sy:

 

 

I can't take anyone seriously who cites delays as 'proof' of cutting dev costs when they have quite openly and proveably expanded the dev team and added new, costly, factors in to parts of their development. Not to mention 'dozens' is a huge overstatement we've had about 3-4 last minute delays in the year the rest of the 'delays' have simply been the shifting of estimated completions as development progress - people taking such dates too literally and getting all 'omg wtf jagex delays waa waaa' is precisely why Jagex tries to avoid giving us such dates historically.

 

Delays happen no matter what budget you throw at stuff, some of the biggest budget games in the world have faced delays due to last minute technical issues isn't doesn't prove a thing about dev costs.

 

 

 

 

Actually, no. One delay is forgivable, or even a few, but when you're getting several things delayed, you know there's a problem. We have had quests delayed this year, we have even had several indefinitely delayed. We were supposed to get another 2-3 quests for the end of 2013 according to Mod Mark, and  a World Gate Quest in January. They are all delayed and no one knows what happened to them. Ports was supposed to be December, it will now be January. There was a Range buff that was supposed to be December or January, now it looks to be neither. Skills were delayed. There was a construction rework, also.

 

These are not some trivial last minute things; it's pretty clear that they are pathologically unable to deliver commitments or manage their time. A few times, it is forgivable, but when it is constant, it can't be brushed under the rug as if it was some minor mishap.

 

 

 

Equally content decline in quality and quantity is entirely unproven - for one thing we've still had our update every week but 1 each month quantity other than 1 or 2 instances of delay. As for quality it is entirely subjective, for me most of their updates have been of great quality. Quests in particular have raised the bar this year, as have boss battles.

 

I don't have the numbers at hand, but I am almost entirely certain that we haven't had an update each week (and no SoF and SGS don't count). I can distinctively remember weeks without updates. 

 

As for the quality, yes that's subjective, but it's a common enough complaint that it merits some consideration. 

 

Boss battles have objectively become much more time consuming and cumbersome to such an extent that forums for PVM activities are much slower than before, as is participation, and the learning curve is very steep. In the recent poll on the main page, the two major bosses this year (Barrows and Vorago) were dead last in the category for favorite updates. I do both regularly, but it's clear that I am in a very small minority of players and even I detest the experience and only do it because there are no other alternatives. 

 

As for Quests, they were incredibly sparse this year, and with several quests that were slated for this year not happening at all, and at least one major quest (Birthright of the Dwarves) being considered by most players to be a complete and rushed disaster. There was not a single quest (with the possible exception of TWW, and that is debateable) that was up to the standard to ROTM or WGS or Branches of Darkmeyer. 

 

 

Yes there are longterm well known issues, but this is nothing new Runescape has always had such issues so it proves nothing about declining costs; the fact they have very recently got their 'ninja team' to start purposefully addressing these issues says more about their actions and dev than the fact these issues exist when that has been the status quo for the past decade of the game.

 

Actually it is new, the level of neglect and lack of seriousness with which these issues have been treated. I have personally worked with the Ninja team and a lot of serious things which could easily be fixed have been neglected. T90 Mage is 3B, while T90 Range is 500M, while T90 Melee is 150M. Mage is useful for everything, while Melee despite being having high DPS is very restricted in a lot of places, and Range is utterly useless. It's been one year since EoC went live after an extensive testing period, and these problems were continually brought up and absolutely nothing has been done. There's a GLARING problem at the heart of EoC (which was supposed to balance the triangle), and it's just allowed to continue month in and month out. A lot of the specials for could could be fixed with some quick Ninjas within a week to make Range viable  -- but is anything done about it? Nope. Vorago's difficulty could be tampered to make T90 Mage more common (just as Nex's drops were made common within 4 weeks of release). Instead more efforts have been made to make him more difficult. Most bosses are still about DPS, thus making tank gear and shields effectively useless and underpowered. T80 Mage is actually more useful than T90 Range (or at least it was until recently). And so on.

 

These are glaring problems, and aboslutely nothing has been done, and there are no discussions about them. There are J-Mods working on concept art competitions for SGS stuff, but not this. It's a joke.

[ilovecuttingyews]

Pretty sure the increase in delays has more to do with Jagex being more open with their long-term goals. It was nicer when we were in the dark about what was coming up so players didn't have time to make unreasonable expectations only to be let down when it's not perfect.

[Yoko Kurama]

Pretty sure the increase in delays has more to do with Jagex being more open with their long-term goals. It was nicer when we were in the dark about what was coming up so players didn't have time to make unreasonable expectations only to be let down when it's not perfect.

 

I don't see anything more on the openness front. There are various things that they won't comment about that are very pressing. The delays also seem inexcusably excessive; they seem to be wandering aimlessly from one pet project to another without any cohesive plan. It's not that there were a few hurdles here and there; they have consistently been behind on deadlines for major things (and several of them!), that to me suggests that they are mismanaging their time. To offer an analogy, think of it like being in college or high school. Almost everything has a deadline. Usually though there's enough time that if you start on time and put in a decent effort you can succeed. Sometimes though stuff comes up and there's nothing you can do about it. So you go talk to the professor/teacher and explain what's happening. Usually they are understanding and grant you an extension or something. However, if this keeps happening, time after time, and more than a few times, they are no longer as understanding and quickly begin to point the finger at you and conclude that you must be mismanaging your time. That's precisely how I view this. That Jagex has consistently missed various deadlines, had little discussion about it, ignored various things, and been totally casual and flippant about it, suggests to me that they are bad at managing time, and are basically just half-assing it to keep the boat afloat and nothing else.

[Lord Zophar]

 

Pretty sure the increase in delays has more to do with Jagex being more open with their long-term goals. It was nicer when we were in the dark about what was coming up so players didn't have time to make unreasonable expectations only to be let down when it's not perfect.

, and are basically just half-assing it to keep the boat afloat and nothing else.

 

This, at least to me, is blatantly obvious.

 

They made ranged significantly more viable when they changed Death Swiftness to allow multiple people to use it, but it is still not as powerful as magic. Ranged needs its basic abilities to be buffed, something that Jagex is "supposedly" working on.

 

And Vorago's drop rates need to be doubled. IDGAF if a few elitist scumbags cry about not getting 500m splits of 6 man wands. No piece of equipment should cost anywhere close to that much GP. Even if they double the drop rates, wands probably won't drop below 1B because Vorago is too hard for the average player to kill with any regularity.

 

I myself am slowly losing interest in RS again... Once I reobtain my Quest Cape, I'll probably semi-retire again, only popping on now and then to do stuff with my clan or whenever they release a new quest. I have over a year of members now, so yeah. You can only kill a boss that takes 20 minutes per kill so many times without a major drop before you start to lose interest. And while the GP from a drop would be nice, I don't really know what I'd buy. And besides, if I need GP badly enough I make decent enough money from my real life job that it is more efficient to just buy GP with bonds than spend hours grinding a boss hoping for a payday.

[brunokiller]

 

 

Pretty sure the increase in delays has more to do with Jagex being more open with their long-term goals. It was nicer when we were in the dark about what was coming up so players didn't have time to make unreasonable expectations only to be let down when it's not perfect.

, and are basically just half-assing it to keep the boat afloat and nothing else.

 

This, at least to me, is blatantly obvious.

 

They made ranged significantly more viable when they changed Death Swiftness to allow multiple people to use it, but it is still not as powerful as magic. Ranged needs its basic abilities to be buffed, something that Jagex is "supposedly" working on.

 

And Vorago's drop rates need to be doubled. IDGAF if a few elitist scumbags cry about not getting 500m splits of 6 man wands. No piece of equipment should cost anywhere close to that much GP. Even if they double the drop rates, wands probably won't drop below 1B because Vorago is too hard for the average player to kill with any regularity.

 

I myself am slowly losing interest in RS again... Once I reobtain my Quest Cape, I'll probably semi-retire again, only popping on now and then to do stuff with my clan or whenever they release a new quest. I have over a year of members now, so yeah. You can only kill a boss that takes 20 minutes per kill so many times without a major drop before you start to lose interest. And while the GP from a drop would be nice, I don't really know what I'd buy. And besides, if I need GP badly enough I make decent enough money from my real life job that it is more efficient to just buy GP with bonds than spend hours grinding a boss hoping for a payday.

 

Devotion (if they don't end up nerfing it in pvm) makes vorago a lot easier.

[Wkw]

 

 

 

Pretty sure the increase in delays has more to do with Jagex being more open with their long-term goals. It was nicer when we were in the dark about what was coming up so players didn't have time to make unreasonable expectations only to be let down when it's not perfect.

, and are basically just half-assing it to keep the boat afloat and nothing else.

 

This, at least to me, is blatantly obvious.

 

They made ranged significantly more viable when they changed Death Swiftness to allow multiple people to use it, but it is still not as powerful as magic. Ranged needs its basic abilities to be buffed, something that Jagex is "supposedly" working on.

 

And Vorago's drop rates need to be doubled. IDGAF if a few elitist scumbags cry about not getting 500m splits of 6 man wands. No piece of equipment should cost anywhere close to that much GP. Even if they double the drop rates, wands probably won't drop below 1B because Vorago is too hard for the average player to kill with any regularity.

 

I myself am slowly losing interest in RS again... Once I reobtain my Quest Cape, I'll probably semi-retire again, only popping on now and then to do stuff with my clan or whenever they release a new quest. I have over a year of members now, so yeah. You can only kill a boss that takes 20 minutes per kill so many times without a major drop before you start to lose interest. And while the GP from a drop would be nice, I don't really know what I'd buy. And besides, if I need GP badly enough I make decent enough money from my real life job that it is more efficient to just buy GP with bonds than spend hours grinding a boss hoping for a payday.

 

Devotion (if they don't end up nerfing it in pvm) makes vorago a lot easier.

 

It makes it easier, yes, but it doesn't make it easy to the point where a bunch of people can pop down and have fun with it

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

 

Pretty sure the increase in delays has more to do with Jagex being more open with their long-term goals. It was nicer when we were in the dark about what was coming up so players didn't have time to make unreasonable expectations only to be let down when it's not perfect.

, and are basically just half-assing it to keep the boat afloat and nothing else.

 

This, at least to me, is blatantly obvious.

 

They made ranged significantly more viable when they changed Death Swiftness to allow multiple people to use it, but it is still not as powerful as magic. Ranged needs its basic abilities to be buffed, something that Jagex is "supposedly" working on.

 

And Vorago's drop rates need to be doubled. IDGAF if a few elitist scumbags cry about not getting 500m splits of 6 man wands. No piece of equipment should cost anywhere close to that much GP. Even if they double the drop rates, wands probably won't drop below 1B because Vorago is too hard for the average player to kill with any regularity.

 

I myself am slowly losing interest in RS again... Once I reobtain my Quest Cape, I'll probably semi-retire again, only popping on now and then to do stuff with my clan or whenever they release a new quest. I have over a year of members now, so yeah. You can only kill a boss that takes 20 minutes per kill so many times without a major drop before you start to lose interest. And while the GP from a drop would be nice, I don't really know what I'd buy. And besides, if I need GP badly enough I make decent enough money from my real life job that it is more efficient to just buy GP with bonds than spend hours grinding a boss hoping for a payday.

 

Devotion (if they don't end up nerfing it in pvm) makes vorago a lot easier.

 

 

It's a nice little perk for Bomb Tanks (and everyone on certain phases), but it does absolutely nothing to reduce the hideous amount of effort needed to fight Vorago, the obscene drop rate, and the difficulty of finding and organizing competent teams.

[Platinum_Myr]

Actually overall they have gotten a lot better at some aspects of quests, however story line has suffered.

 

Also, we have as far as I remember had an update (even if only minor not counting sof/sgs) 3 weeks of every month.

You're correct they have had scheduling issues, and definitely have failed on a lot of promises, but most of those were not real promises. They were far far too early in development to make promises about release time. The fact that jagex still made indications was a mistake.

[Urza285]

You shouldn't ever consider forcasted release times as promises anyways. That's like a sixth sense venteran players have with Jagex.

[Sy_Accursed]

You shouldn't ever consider forcasted release times as promises anyways. That's like a sixth sense venteran players have with Jagex.

 

It's not even really a Jagex thing is a flat out dev thing, especially a dev thing in an already massive game where projects are coded concurrently. Tech issues, road blocks and the need to shift dev focus can happen at the drop of a hat.

 

I mean heck they even put a disclaimer on the BTS articles every month now saying that it is only a plan and that it is subject to change, yet people still go mental over the fact updates are 'delayed' when a ballpark many months away release estimate gets changed.

[Tim]

Although there is a big difference between 1-2 weeks delay, and half a year. (Looking at you Invention) As well as content they were hell-bent on releasing first week of 'x' month, then it gets pushed back to late next month (cant remember what it was)

[Ammako]

Not to mention that a Solomon's General Store update was delayed too, not just actual content.