Do YOU believe in God?

[wakka102]

I find it kinda funny that people believe in god but they dont believe in aliens or the sasquach. Theyre is more evidence to prove those two things than theyre are to prove a god. I'm athiest but I still respect most religions. The only time I dont is when they descriminate against certain people (gays, lesbians, etc.) and when they try to force theyre ideas on people.

 

 

 

I can think of a million reasons why religon is a bunch of bs. like the thread starter said, some wacko could have wrote the bible thousands of years ago and then somone just picked it up and thought everything there was true. Now humans thousands of years ago werent very smart, but its already year 2006! why are some people still believing in a book they have no clue about?

 

 

 

altho im seeing that alot of people, (espechially the next generation [teens]) no longer really belive this bs, which puts a smile on my face because less time and energy will be wasted on this pointless crap that has done nothing but cost billions of lives over thousands of years.

 

Not having religion is like not having walls around your fort in enemy terretory. If you don't have em, your pretty much dead.

 

I dont see your point. In today's society, walls are useless. Science has given us the opertunity to fly over those walls and bomb the people inside, and only kill the people we want dead. Your analogy emphisizes how useless religion has become.

I agree with what Malo said here as well.

[Rebdragon]

I can think of a million reasons why religon is a bunch of bs. like the thread starter said, some wacko could have wrote the bible thousands of years ago and then somone just picked it up and thought everything there was true. Now humans thousands of years ago werent very smart, but its already year 2006! why are some people still believing in a book they have no clue about?

 

 

 

altho im seeing that alot of people, (espechially the next generation [teens]) no longer really belive this bs, which puts a smile on my face because less time and energy will be wasted on this pointless crap that has done nothing but cost billions of lives over thousands of years.

 

Not having religion is like not having walls around your fort in enemy terretory. If you don't have em, your pretty much dead.

 

I dont see your point. In today's society, walls are useless. Science has given us the opertunity to fly over those walls and bomb the people inside, and only kill the people we want dead. Your analogy emphisizes how useless religion has become.

 

Interesting counter-analogy, well thought out, but not necessary.

 

 

 

Honestly, "if you don't have religion you're dead"!? What, are you going to come to my house and kill me because I'm an atheist? I can just picture you in a crowd with a sign saying: "Kill all the nonbelievers!" :lol: :evil: .

[chikensr0ck]

bull912000 if god knows everything wouldnt that mean we dont have free will that god has our future set in stone.

[Rebdragon]

bull912000 if god knows everything wouldnt that mean we dont have free will that god has our future set in stone.

 

Ya know I've always wondered that. I personally believe that we make choices every day, but 'God' (or whatever he/she/it is) already knows the future and what will happen, so we don't really have free will.

 

 

 

I believe our choices are based on two things: Our genetics and our environment. The way our mind and body is set at birth can have a strong affect on what we do (how we look effects us everyday, someone could be bipolar, etc). Environment, the more important part, directly 'controls' what we do. Everything we do we do because what happened in our environment in the past told us to do it.

[pianofrieak2]

bull912000 if god knows everything wouldnt that mean we dont have free will that god has our future set in stone.

 

 

 

How come God's foreknowledge has come to mean the absence of free will? :?

 

 

 

*sigh*

 

 

 

It's amazing how these posts are written as soon as the heavy hitters leave.

[Guest GhostRanger]

bull912000 if god knows everything wouldnt that mean we dont have free will that god has our future set in stone.

 

Ya know I've always wondered that. I personally believe that we make choices every day, but 'God' (or whatever he/she/it is) already knows the future and what will happen, so we don't really have free will.

 

 

 

I believe our choices are based on two things: Our genetics and our environment. The way our mind and body is set at birth can have a strong affect on what we do (how we look effects us everyday, someone could be bipolar, etc). Environment, the more important part, directly 'controls' what we do. Everything we do we do because what happened in our environment in the past told us to do it.

 

 

 

How does someone knowing what is going to happen, mean that you still aren't making your own choice? Just curious...

[insane]

bull912000 if god knows everything wouldnt that mean we dont have free will that god has our future set in stone.

 

Ya know I've always wondered that. I personally believe that we make choices every day, but 'God' (or whatever he/she/it is) already knows the future and what will happen, so we don't really have free will.

 

 

 

I believe our choices are based on two things: Our genetics and our environment. The way our mind and body is set at birth can have a strong affect on what we do (how we look effects us everyday, someone could be bipolar, etc). Environment, the more important part, directly 'controls' what we do. Everything we do we do because what happened in our environment in the past told us to do it.

 

 

 

How does someone knowing what is going to happen, mean that you still aren't making your own choice? Just curious...

 

 

 

Precisely; I don't see people blaming fortune tellers for stuff that happens to them and accuse them of making the choice for them.

[pianofrieak2]

That was exactly my point...3 posts ago.

 

 

 

But, you see, there's no alternative if you don't believe in the supernatural. Everything must be explained by science and by chemical reactions in your head. Thus, love is just a product of your brain cells interacting.

 

 

 

Everything is determined by your genetics, your environment, and your past. You're just an animal with instincts.

 

 

 

Without God, that is...

[Death_By_Pod]

 

How does someone knowing what is going to happen, mean that you still aren't making your own choice? Just curious...

 

 

 

Nothing, but if God is infallible and has foresight then you don't have free will over decisions. If God is always right and he knows youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re going to do X instead of Y, then the only option you can take is X otherwise god is wrong (is fallible and doesn't have foresight). What's the point of God having foresight if it doesn't turn out to be true; it may as well be a guess.

 

 

 

 

Precisely; I don't see people blaming fortune tellers for stuff that happens to them and accuse them of making the choice for them.

 

 

 

Fortune tellers guess the future, God doesn't (unless your willing to part with his infallible ability of foresight); pretty big difference.

 

 

 

 

But, you see, there's no alternative if you don't believe in the supernatural. Everything must be explained by science and by chemical reactions in your head. Thus, love is just a product of your brain cells interacting.

 

 

 

Everything is determined by your genetics, your environment, and your past. You're just an animal with instincts.

 

 

 

Without God, that is...

 

 

 

Love can only be explained by 'chemicals and cells', it is meaningless and of no practicality to talk of love in terms of the supernatural because love is a natural phenomenon. God can't magically change these facts, because he has no domain over them. There is a strict dichotomy between natural and supernatural, you simply canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t have something transcend this division otherwise there is no point in making the distinction between natural and supernatural in the first place.

 

Furthermore is there even anything wrong with being just an animal, what would make you think we were any different from them; itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s pretty clear that we share a lot of traits with them.

[insane]

 

How does someone knowing what is going to happen, mean that you still aren't making your own choice? Just curious...

 

 

 

Nothing, but if God is infallible and has foresight then you don't have free will over decisions. If God is always right and he knows youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re going to do X instead of Y, then the only option you can take is X otherwise god is wrong (is fallible and doesn't have foresight). What's the point of God having foresight if it doesn't turn out to be true; it may as well be a guess.

 

 

 

 

God may foreknow what you will freely choose. It's weird to think about, but I think it works.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Precisely; I don't see people blaming fortune tellers for stuff that happens to them and accuse them of making the choice for them.

 

 

 

Fortune tellers guess the future, God doesn't (unless your willing to part with his infallible ability of foresight); pretty big difference.

 

 

 

Some fortune tellers would disagree about the guessing part :P either way, it was just a toy example to prove a point.

[bull912000]

Not having religion is like not having walls around your fort in enemy terretory. If you don't have em, your pretty much dead.

 

can you please explain what youre saying?

 

 

 

In other words, if you know there is a hell, or you think there is a chance, you had better have a religion. If you don't have a religion and it turns out that there really is a hell, you have no chance. Religion gives us a chance to escape hell (well, to some people, that what religion is, but to others, they would have religion even if they knew they were going to hell).

[Mercifull]

Round of applause for the noob posting pascals wager again.

[Astralinre]

Round of applause for the noob posting pascals wager again.

 

 

 

But isn't that the way these threads always go? One group of people debate every detail of some point, then move on, when a few pages later, someone else starts that same debate over again with different people? As we discussed earlier, this thread is really about exercising our minds and exploring our own beliefs deeper. If you want to take part in the discussion, then do so; otherwise let them exercise their own minds without you flaming them.

[Bubsa]

Round of applause for the noob posting pascals wager again.

 

What, you expected him to read through 60+ pages explaining the inexplainable?

[Evilperson]

But, you see, there's no alternative if you don't believe in the supernatural. Everything must be explained by science and by chemical reactions in your head. Thus, love is just a product of your brain cells interacting.

 

 

 

If love is just a product of brain cells, what is faith? Love is no difference than faith. It is an idea created by people to help explain how they are feeling or for it to be an explanation for the way they think.

[wakka102]

But, you see, there's no alternative if you don't believe in the supernatural. Everything must be explained by science and by chemical reactions in your head. Thus, love is just a product of your brain cells interacting.

 

 

 

If love is just a product of brain cells, what is faith? Love is no difference than faith. It is an idea created by people to help explain how they are feeling or for it to be an explanation for the way they think.

People are afraid ofthe unknown, its how the human brain works. People create gods and such to help explain the things they can't understand because they are afraid and need an explanation.

[pianofrieak2]

 

How does someone knowing what is going to happen, mean that you still aren't making your own choice? Just curious...

 

 

 

Nothing, but if God is infallible and has foresight then you don't have free will over decisions. If God is always right and he knows youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re going to do X instead of Y, then the only option you can take is X otherwise god is wrong (is fallible and doesn't have foresight). What's the point of God having foresight if it doesn't turn out to be true; it may as well be a guess.

 

 

 

Not exactly. God is infallible and has foresight because He is everywhere in time. If He is everywhere at all times, then He certainly knows the future as well as the past and the present.

 

 

 

God knows you'll do X instead of Y but you're still choosing to do X. You, in the situation, have the option to do both X and Y but you do X, just like God knows you will.

 

 

 

Your choice still exists.

 

 

 

Love can only be explained by 'chemicals and cells', it is meaningless and of no practicality to talk of love in terms of the supernatural because love is a natural phenomenon.

 

 

 

Actually, love can be quite strange at times. The Fight or Flight Response is what our natural decisions are based on. Especially when something surprising comes out.

 

 

 

Fight or flight.

 

 

 

Now, what happens if a man runs into a burning building to save his daughter. He's not fighting the fire, nor is he running away. Why would he risk his life for his daughter? To a rational mind, saving another person at your own risk (where you BOTH might die) just doesn't make any sense. And yet many fathers would die for their family.

 

 

 

That's what makes love different.

 

 

 

God can't magically change these facts, because he has no domain over them. There is a strict dichotomy between natural and supernatural, you simply canÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t have something transcend this division otherwise there is no point in making the distinction between natural and supernatural in the first place.

 

 

 

Again I would disagree. The supernatural is not natural, but because the supernatural CREATED the natural, it certainly has dominion OVER the natural. It can interfere if it so desires.

 

 

 

Furthermore is there even anything wrong with being just an animal, what would make you think we were any different from them; itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s pretty clear that we share a lot of traits with them.

 

 

 

A lot of traits and ALL of our traits are two very different things.

[MyPurpleCrayon]

Nothing, but if God is infallible and has foresight then you don't have free will over decisions. If God is always right and he knows youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re going to do X instead of Y, then the only option you can take is X otherwise god is wrong (is fallible and doesn't have foresight). What's the point of God having foresight if it doesn't turn out to be true; it may as well be a guess.

 

 

 

Hah. This totally reminds me of Dogma.

[malo2]

ok, so theres 63 pages worth of argument, mostly of the athiest doing a good job of proving religion crap, and the religious struggling to keep the athiest from proving it wrong.

 

 

 

Now understand, religion wasnt a fact to begin with, so what the argument should be like, is the religious proving religion right, and the athiest trying to prove it wrong. The way its going now, I dont see why anybody is still hoping to prove religion true.

[Guest GhostRanger]

ok, so theres 63 pages worth of argument, mostly of the athiest doing a good job of proving religion crap, and the religious struggling to keep the athiest from proving it wrong.

 

 

 

Now understand, religion wasnt a fact to begin with, so what the argument should be like, is the religious proving religion right, and the athiest trying to prove it wrong. The way its going now, I dont see why anybody is still hoping to prove religion true.

 

 

 

You're point doesn't make much sense because we're not trying to prove religion right, because we don't have to. You can't prove it right, all we are doing is explaining our faith.

 

 

 

And I'm glad you didn't let your biased point of view affect your analysis of the 63 pages. Coming from my point of view, the religious argument is far from "struggling."

[insane]

ok, so theres 63 pages worth of argument, mostly of the athiest doing a good job of proving religion crap, and the religious struggling to keep the athiest from proving it wrong.

 

 

 

In your point of view :P in my opinion the atheist usually uses science, which is irrelevant to God's existence. Evolution? God could've used it. To say "it makes more sense that it just randomly happened", is merely a matter of opinion. To me, it makes more sense that something caused it to happen the way it did.

 

 

 

Most of the remaining arguments consist of how religion contradicts itself which is again unrelated to God's existence. (eg. Bible verse contradictions).

 

 

 

Another of the remaining arguments consist of showing how religious people don't follow their religion, which is irrelevent to religion itself and God's existence.

 

 

 

And the last of the remaining arguments consist of trying to disprove a certain belief about God. For example, the one we are currently on. "If God gave us free will and knows what we will choose, and we choose evil, then God isn't a good God". Since the argument itself presupposes God's existence, it is also irrelevent to God's (non)-existence.

 

 

 

Therefore, the religious don't even need to 'struggle', as you say. Because there is simply nothing to struggle against. It's just interesting to think outside the box for a change and challenge our own views, even if we go in knowing that nothing said will change them.

 

 

 

 

 

Now understand, religion wasnt a fact to begin with, so what the argument should be like, is the religious proving religion right, and the athiest trying to prove it wrong.

 

 

 

The burden of proof really doesn't rest on anyone in this thread - it's not a thread titled "prove God is true" or "prove God is non-existent", it's a thread titled "do you believe in God?", meaning the burden of opinion/proof is on the poster. This isn't a scientific method-based forum where sure answers are written in textbooks.

 

 

 

 

 

The way its going now, I dont see why anybody is still hoping to prove religion true.

 

 

 

See first paragraph. It's not a matter of proof, since God cannot be proven or disproven. It's a matter of exercising our minds, playing devil's advocate. Y'know, fun intellectual stuff :P

 

 

 

And just for the record, God does not equate religion.

[malo2]

ok, so theres 63 pages worth of argument, mostly of the athiest doing a good job of proving religion crap, and the religious struggling to keep the athiest from proving it wrong.

 

 

 

Now understand, religion wasnt a fact to begin with, so what the argument should be like, is the religious proving religion right, and the athiest trying to prove it wrong. The way its going now, I dont see why anybody is still hoping to prove religion true.

 

 

 

You're point doesn't make much sense because we're not trying to prove religion right, because we don't have to. You can't prove it right, all we are doing is explaining our faith.

 

 

 

And I'm glad you didn't let your biased point of view affect your analysis of the 63 pages. Coming from my point of view, the religious argument is far from "struggling."

 

when theres an argument going on then theres two people trying to prove themselves right, and over the last few pages, thats what has been going on.

 

 

 

and in my opinion, whne one side only has a few people, that are doing a pretty bad job of providing facts, rather than stories, then theyre struggling. i guess some people see the world struggling in a different way. ohwell.

[Tigra00]

I'm wondering here...With all this talk of Evolution or Intelligent Design:

 

 

 

Does the Bible say ANYTHING about the Dinosaurs? Earlier humans? Anything? It seems to me that if God were to tell the stories of past events...Adam and Eve, blah blah blah, that he would have said something about the Dinosaurs at least. If the Bible says nothing about them, to me this would mean the Bible was made up. Why? Because the first fossils of Dinosaurs weren't discovered until the early(?) 1800's, I believe. I remember seeing it on the history channel, some guy stumbled accross some bones, they were dug up, and it was a Dinosaur and noone had any idea what the hell it was...Obviously, the 1800's are way after the Bible was written.

 

 

 

I've never read the Bible, so does anyone know? I'm curious, I'm not assuming there is or isn't any mention of them, but it would seem to me that if there is no mention of them that would kinda' fit in with Evolution's theory. I mean the Bible DOES say God created Earth...Most certainly he must have created them too, right?

 

 

 

Anyone know?

[Guest GhostRanger]

ok, so theres 63 pages worth of argument, mostly of the athiest doing a good job of proving religion crap, and the religious struggling to keep the athiest from proving it wrong.

 

 

 

Now understand, religion wasnt a fact to begin with, so what the argument should be like, is the religious proving religion right, and the athiest trying to prove it wrong. The way its going now, I dont see why anybody is still hoping to prove religion true.

 

 

 

You're point doesn't make much sense because we're not trying to prove religion right, because we don't have to. You can't prove it right, all we are doing is explaining our faith.

 

 

 

And I'm glad you didn't let your biased point of view affect your analysis of the 63 pages. Coming from my point of view, the religious argument is far from "struggling."

 

when theres an argument going on then theres two people trying to prove themselves right, and over the last few pages, thats what has been going on.

 

 

 

and in my opinion, whne one side only has a few people, that are doing a pretty bad job of providing facts, rather than stories, then theyre struggling. i guess some people see the world struggling in a different way. ohwell.

 

 

 

1) We are not trying to prove each other right or wrong. This discussion is not about proof. Read insane's post above.

 

 

 

2) Just because there are more athiests on this board than religious people, doesn't mean one side is doing better than the other. Once again, read insane's post above.

 

 

 

3) It's only your opinion that the religious side's points are "bad" and that's why your version of "struggling" doesn't work. You can't decide who is doing a better job in a discussion based on which idea you support.

[malo2]

ok, so theres 63 pages worth of argument, mostly of the athiest doing a good job of proving religion crap, and the religious struggling to keep the athiest from proving it wrong.

 

 

 

In your point of view :P in my opinion the atheist usually uses science, which is irrelevant to God's existence. Evolution? God could've used it. To say "it makes more sense that it just randomly happened", is merely a matter of opinion. To me, it makes more sense that something caused it to happen the way it did.

 

Do you really thin kscientists just make up the stiff they figure out? the things scientsts claim have been proven to be facts after a long time of research, its not something they just decided to belive in and told the rest of the world to belive, thats religion, not science, science isnt just another religion, they have proof to support their discoveries, religions just have tales and verses that an unnamed author wrote long ago. (ps. see my sig)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the remaining arguments consist of how religion contradicts itself which is again unrelated to God's existence. (eg. Bible verse contradictions).

 

 

 

Another of the remaining arguments consist of showing how religious people don't follow their religion, which is irrelevent to religion itself and God's existence.

 

 

 

And the last of the remaining arguments consist of trying to disprove a certain belief about God. For example, the one we are currently on. "If God gave us free will and knows what we will choose, and we choose evil, then God isn't a good God". Since the argument itself presupposes God's existence, it is also irrelevent to God's (non)-existence.

 

 

 

Therefore, the religious don't even need to 'struggle', as you say. Because there is simply nothing to struggle against. It's just interesting to think outside the box for a change and challenge our own views, even if we go in knowing that nothing said will change them.

 

 

 

i dont think you really need to worry about those parts very much, you wouldnt really have anything better to say when youre waiting for the other side to offer arguments, sine I see so many arguments posted on the previous page that just arent answered. Now the point of saying that, is simply to ask, why are religions people ever trying to prove themselves right (if they are ofcourse, its not one person for you to decide of, if theyre arguing or not btw, there are alot of people, some argue, some dont) when they dont even know what they belive in, religion is just so corrupted (like its always been in countless ways), that its just amazing that there are people still defending it.

 

 

 

 

Now understand, religion wasnt a fact to begin with, so what the argument should be like, is the religious proving religion right, and the athiest trying to prove it wrong.

 

 

 

The burden of proof really doesn't rest on anyone in this thread - it's not a thread titled "prove God is true" or "prove God is non-existent", it's a thread titled "do you believe in God?", meaning the burden of opinion/proof is on the poster. This isn't a scientific method-based forum where sure answers are written in textbooks.

 

I dont think the title of the thread really decides what people are going to post, the moment i saw the thread i knew what id see inside, and obviousy, there are 2 sides trying to deside wether religion makes sence or not. Now, in other words of what i was trying to say (man its hard to explain :x): the argument over religion is always so rediculous, because one side is trying prove its self right so hard without any evidnce, whist the opposite side has all the ovidence in the world. Its like an aurmoured man with a large gun, versus a defensless man with nothing, you know what i mean?

 

 

 

 

The way its going now, I dont see why anybody is still hoping to prove religion true.

 

 

 

See first paragraph. It's not a matter of proof, since God cannot be proven or disproven. It's a matter of exercising our minds, playing devil's advocate. Y'know, fun intellectual stuff :P

 

 

 

And just for the record, God does not equate religion.

ok that one really had nothing to it :shock: